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So I just painted and played with my new Vandetta at a local tournament. I really love the look of this thing and I will keep it in my list no matter what. However, it did not perform as well as I had hoped and it got me thinking more about the math-hammer.

My understanding is that the units points cost went up because it was previously an under-priced flyer. However with the changes of the vehicle damage chart, it no longer is popping vehicles 1/3rd of the time. Now it requires a roll of a 6! So the issue to me is whether or not you can put out enough damage to your opponent.

My personal experience thus far is at best shaving some hull points off a vehicle or maybe a wound or two off a monster. It doesn't come on until turn 2 or 3 from reserve and you will hit with usually 2 of your 3 twin-linked lascanons. Then if it's a demon or something, they are getting a ward save (or jink save if it's skimmer or something). Also, I noticed that the firepower is less impressive when you take into account that you have a firing arc so you are not able to always focus what you want when in flyer mode. Most people in the tourney were using flying monstrous creatures that can fire in any direction (one of them shot down my vendetta by casting 4d6 s5 shots up my butt).

So anyways, the only way I see this model paying for itself is if your opponent freaks out and wastes a bunch of snapshots from ground units. Otherwise if they ignore it, there's no way the unit is worth 170 pts. Not when you're getting only 2 or 3 shooting turns a game once it finally arrives from reserve. Maybe GW could drop the points to 140 when they make a new codex....

Thoughts?

3 TL lascanons, on a flier with 12/12/10 armor and transport capacity (while the number of useful guard units that could make use of a 6 man transport capacity is minimal with allies you could put a Chapter master and honor guard squad in that sucker) isn't a bad price to play, it's not a great must take deal, but it's not bad. fliers tend to be pretty expensive

Keep in mind the AM codex is technically a 6ed codex so the vendetta was costed with the 6ed damage chart in mind.

But yes its bad now.

Like much of the AM codex, and indeed many units in the game, its become a victim of the power creep. If it was in 5th ed with its current price, it'd be fairly pointed, give or take 10pts. Now, compared to the durability of other units or raw firepower in newer codices, it just doesn't quite stack up.

Its still one of the better units in the codex though, but its fallen from its glory days in 5th.

Yeah it seemed really lackluster when I used it.

I will agree that it is survivable, but that is only useful if you are representing a threat. I think people are putting the once mighty lascanon on a pedestal. A smart opponent would just ignore it I think.

As far as putting valuable units in it? I don't think they would come from the AM codex lol. I was deepstriking Scions and transporting a 2 flamer and 1 demo charge squad behind enemy lines. Trust me, it's not very viable. More for laughs really. I lossed the whole unit of Scions to a pack of demon beasts ( I killed 2 in overwatch and then he just wiped them out easily).

 CrownAxe wrote:
Keep in mind the AM codex is technically a 6ed codex so the vendetta was costed with the 6ed damage chart in mind.

But yes its bad now.

You'd have to assume it was written with 7th in mind. It only came out 1 month before the 7th ed rulebook, it's be crazy to write it to play with 6th for 1 month when it'll be played with 7th for 2+ years.

This topic may get a whole lot of whiplash from the Vendetta being amazing in 5E.

As is, it's pretty "OK". It's got a lot of firepower and good AV for a flyer, making it a pain for many armies to deal with. Unfortunately, it costs more than most kitted Leman Russ tanks will, isn't really a good transport, and must be held in reserve.

That last part is crucial. What made the Vendetta so incredible in 5E was that turn 1 alpha strike of three twin-linked Lascannons, or, even worse, using a Scout move to roll up 12" away from the enemy, turn 1 disembark melta troops 3" and move 6" to hit something with 3 or 4 BS4 meltaguns in double-tap range and then have the Vendetta move back and hit another target with those three TL Lascannons. That got silly.

For a unit that's not going to be on the board turn 1, and possibly might be stuck off-table until turn 4, its value is drastically less than what it used to be. It's not particularly stellar, but that said, as far as *vehicle* flyers go, it's probably one of the better ones. FMC's are much more functional in general than vehicle flyers are.

That seems to be pretty indicative of the AM book as a whole, making design changes to an army a month before 7E comes out based on 5E performance, and is a major reason why IG are increasingly seen as outdated less than a year after the AM book release.

It's good, but is outshined by the avenger and the vulture.
It is something every ig player should have imo

 Vaktathi wrote:
What made the Vendetta so incredible in 5E was that turn 1 alpha strike of three twin-linked Lascannons, or, even worse, using a Scout move to roll up 12" away from the enemy, turn 1 disembark melta troops 3" and move 6" to hit something with 3 or 4 BS4 meltaguns in double-tap range and then have the Vendetta move back and hit another target with those three TL Lascannons. That got silly.

What made the Vendetta so incredible in 5e was the hundred and thirty point price tag while retaining full transport capacity. It was crazy underpriced in the last book, now it's fine but not particularly weak or powerful.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
What made the Vendetta so incredible in 5E was that turn 1 alpha strike of three twin-linked Lascannons, or, even worse, using a Scout move to roll up 12" away from the enemy, turn 1 disembark melta troops 3" and move 6" to hit something with 3 or 4 BS4 meltaguns in double-tap range and then have the Vendetta move back and hit another target with those three TL Lascannons. That got silly.

What made the Vendetta so incredible in 5e was the hundred and thirty point price tag while retaining full transport capacity. It was crazy underpriced in the last book, now it's fine but not particularly weak or powerful.

Yes it was underpriced, I'm not debating that, but it's utility came from the turn 1 alpha strike *for the cost*. Without being on the table turn 1, it could be 130pts again, and still not be anywhere near the impact it had in 5E.

Likewise, the transport capacity was always secondary, and most of the unit it would carry anyway aren't affected, only IG vets really, the transport capacity nerf was rather pointless in retrospect given that you can still stick command squads and special weapon squads in there.

As everyone has mentioned prior, it suffers from 5th edition bitching and moaning. Yes they were broken at 130. 170 however is far to much, 150 is a far better number. To answer the question more directly they're overpriced, not really underpowered. Really you should go with Vultures now. Vector Dancer for days.

The Vendetta isn't even remotely bad, it's one of the best AT fliers. It could perhaps be 5-10 points cheaper but that's about it.

I don't think there are 3 flying twinlascs in the game for the same price anywhere else. Play two of them, not one. One of anything usually isn't a reliable way of getting something done.

An experienced, tournament oriented IG player in my group uses 2 always, and they perform just fine. 2 of them can take down a Knight with minimal trouble if they get even a bit of support from the rest of the army, for example. They are some of the most annoying things to face in pairs or more, no vehicle tends to live after the turn they arrive.

Still one of the more cost effective flyers in the game. And regarding the fire arc, it also has a huge firing arc compared to most flyers. My Hell Blade doesn't even come close.

 RunicFIN wrote:
The Vendetta isn't even remotely bad, it's one of the best AT fliers. It could perhaps be 5-10 points cheaper but that's about it.

I don't think there are 3 flying twinlascs in the game for the same price anywhere else. Play two of them, not one. One of anything usually isn't a reliable way of getting something done.

An experienced, tournament oriented IG player in my group uses 2 always, and they perform just fine. 2 of them can take down a Knight with minimal trouble if they get even a bit of support from the rest of the army, for example. They are some of the most annoying things to face in pairs or more, no vehicle tends to live after the turn they arrive.

Still one of the more cost effective flyers in the game. And regarding the fire arc, it also has a huge firing arc compared to most flyers. My Hell Blade doesn't even come close.

Thanks for the tip. Yeah maybe having 2 would do the job!

Although there is no way I'm going to paint another one of those things. It took me a solid week and I had the worse case of warhammer back. My posture was that of an ork after painting that thing.

Yeah, always take them in multiples, though that goes for anything in an IG army.

Don't forget to drop special weapon team or scions/ccs on the way there.

Honestly, I'd consider the the Valkyrie the better choice these days.

One of the things the guard does well (and there are precious few of those these days unfortunately) is fight vehicles. There are few armies in the game with as varied access to AT weapons of all shapes and sizes, from the gimmicky vet squad with 10 meltabombs and 3 meltaguns, to the Pask Punisher which is in almost every Guard list still existant. It's one of the reasons that one of the few "difficult" matchups for Eldar is Guard; Serpents are tough as hell, but if anyone can crack a vehicle, it's the Imperial Guard.

So the Vendetta is an expensive addition to that capacity with limited transport utility. The Valkyrie instead offers full transport capacity and not-inconsequential "crowd control" Rocket pods and heavy bolters at a significantly cheaper price point allows you to chew up most general infantry squads before deploying Veterans, who will be almost regardless of loadout better tank hunters.

That of course pales to the previous mentioned Vulture and Avenger, which are both excellent strike craft to use, though suffer from being, from what I hear, less than enjoyable to build. FW never has really mastered the art of big resin vehicle kits actually fitting together nicely.

 koooaei wrote:
Don't forget to drop special weapon team or scions/ccs on the way there.

indeed, 3 demo charges make for a fairly cheap ish unit, that can stick a whole world of hurt on the right unit, and only 6 makes DS much safer...

The Vendetta is love, the Vendetta is life. There is no other unit in the whole AM codex that has its combination of mobility, durability and firepower. Not to mention that it is effectively the only real AA option in the book. Hell, it is probably also the best AT option too.

Like, what would you bring to deal with BA/Tyranid air-spam? Hydras ?

Come on guys, be serious. The Vendetta is an essential unit, maybe the single best one in the whole codex. Even with the increased price tag and the transport capacity nerf. In the last tourney I had three of these babies, encountered zero fliers, and my biggest problem was that I didn't have six Vendettas in my list...

BA air-spam is self-defeating, as the Stormraven is even less efficient than the Vendetta. Pentaflyrants is a special kind of utter absurdity and I don't expect there to be a direct counter to it.

Honestly I think it's a pretty dang good flyer. It's not forge world though - so it's not brokenly overpowered. Look through the codex's - It's easily the best armed flyer in a codex (cept maybe the spacewolf flyer that costs way more) and it's not even the most expensive and its av 12 and it has transport capacity.

Flyers that aren't MC's just aren't very good in this edition unless it's a chaos fire raptor.

The problem with it is that there is no way to put 2 in to a 1500 list, when mealstorm missions are played. Plus they do nothing about WS or stuff that can jink, they would have to ignore cover to be realy effective.
the point cost high was a harsh change, but stuff like no longer having units to actualy carry in it hurt it a lot too.

BrianDavion wrote:
3 TL lascanons, on a flier with 12/12/10 armor and transport capacity (while the number of useful guard units that could make use of a 6 man transport capacity is minimal with allies you could put a Chapter master and honor guard squad in that sucker) isn't a bad price to play, it's not a great must take deal, but it's not bad. fliers tend to be pretty expensive

It's bad tactic to put the Chapter Master in. The Vendetta is not an assault vehicle.

It's still MUCH easier to fit in two Vendettas at 1500 pts than two Stormravens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bibotot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
3 TL lascanons, on a flier with 12/12/10 armor and transport capacity (while the number of useful guard units that could make use of a 6 man transport capacity is minimal with allies you could put a Chapter master and honor guard squad in that sucker) isn't a bad price to play, it's not a great must take deal, but it's not bad. fliers tend to be pretty expensive

It's bad tactic to put the Chapter Master in. The Vendetta is not an assault vehicle.

Neither is the Stormraven if you want it to live. Grav chutes for all!

 Xenomancers wrote:
Honestly I think it's a pretty dang good flyer. It's not forge world though - so it's not brokenly overpowered. Look through the codex's - It's easily the best armed flyer in a codex (cept maybe the spacewolf flyer that costs way more) and it's not even the most expensive and its av 12 and it has transport capacity.

Flyers that aren't MC's just aren't very good in this edition unless it's a chaos fire raptor.

What on earth does it being FW or not have anything to do with it? There's what, like 1 FW flyer that people complain about, and makes effectively zero appearances in tournament armies?

 MajorStoffer wrote:
That of course pales to the previous mentioned Vulture and Avenger, which are both excellent strike craft to use, though suffer from being, from what I hear, less than enjoyable to build. FW never has really mastered the art of big resin vehicle kits actually fitting together nicely.

You heard wrong, thankfully. The Vulture is really easy to build since it's just a resin center section with the plastic Valkyrie wings and tail booms, you'd probably have more trouble building a plastic Valkyrie kit than a Vulture. Both of my "modern" Vultures were almost effortless, and even my old all-resin Vulture (a kit you can't buy anymore) fit together fine and only needed pinning to protect against breaking it. I haven't finished building my Avenger yet but I haven't seen any major problems with it beyond the standard warped parts that are easily fixed with hot water.

As for the rules, the Vulture (with punisher cannons) and Avenger are great units, but they have their drawbacks. The Vulture is entirely dependent on volume of fire to accomplish anything, if it can't find an AV 10-11 facing to shoot at then it literally can't roll dice against vehicles. And against tougher infantry targets it can struggle to do any significant damage to justify its point cost. The Avenger hits even harder against most targets (and is brutal against FMCs), but it's a glass cannon with only 2 HP and AV 10 on the sides. And of course neither of them have any transport capacity so they aren't contributing to scoring objectives.

When where the vulture and avenger add? We haven't been getting any WD since new year and am interested about their rules.

It's still MUCH easier to fit in two Vendettas at 1500 pts than two Stormravens.

only no SM army has to run stormravens. They can get cheaper transports in form of drop pods that come on in a turn sooner with no random rolling and if they want anti tank they can take centurions. With IG to make it realy good, I would need to have access to cheap fast moving transports and a 170 one is not one of them.

Makumba wrote:
When where the vulture and avenger add? We haven't been getting any WD since new year and am interested about their rules.

They're from Forge World

Ah so they may as well not exist :(

Makumba wrote:
Ah so they may as well not exist :(

Didn't the seventh edition rulebook state that all books published for citadel miniatures are usable? I thought that solved the debate on Forgeworld.

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Ah so they may as well not exist :(

Didn't the seventh edition rulebook state that all books published for citadel miniatures are usable? I thought that solved the debate on Forgeworld.

Lets not open that can of worms