Time to make GW listen

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**Martel732**

I play against blind opponents. Also, over half my play group will be using these things I guarantee you. And I have BA.

That being said, communicating with GW is a waste of time. The only thing you can do is vote with your feet and you wallet. I've already been voting with my wallet for 10+ years, so there's not much I can really do.

**Wonderwolf**

Martel732 wrote:
I play against blind opponents. Also, over half my play group will be using these things I guarantee you. And I have BA.

That being said, communicating with GW is a waste of time. The only thing you can do is vote with your feet and you wallet. I've already been voting with my wallet for 10+ years, so there's not much I can really do.

I've been voting with my wallet against Ferrarri's price-policy all my life. I am not sure they noticed yet.

**Martel732**

There's likely nothing going to come of this no matter what people do. As in your Ferrarri example. Slowly but surely though, players will fall by the way side and not be replaced.

For example, I can't get my son to really play this. He likes assembling and painting, but won't play it over Starcraft or other computer games. And those games are just better anyway. So why should I push the matter?

**Melissia**

Most of you wouldn't have bought any models anyway so your objection is meaningless.

**Martel732**

Melissia wrote:
Most of you wouldn't have bought any models anyway so your objection is meaningless.

Not quite. If I were serious enough, I could get IoM allies for my BA. That likelihood went from slim to zero with this release.

**Melissia**

"If I were serious enough" = "I wasn't going to anyway but I'm going to pretend I was"

**Martel732**

Melissia wrote:
"If I were serious enough" = "I wasn't going to anyway but I'm going to pretend I was"

Not completely true. I had considered a Knight, because it works pretty well with BA. But there's no chance of that now at all.

**Wayniac**

Melissia wrote:
Most of you wouldn't have bought any models anyway so your objection is meaningless.

AKA stop whining and deal with it, there's no problem at all here everything is fine. We have always been at war with Eastasia.

**Da Stormlord**

Why is everyone whining? We can get something out of this. Go directly to GWHQ and show them this thread and stuff...

**wuestenfux**

Da Stormlord wrote:
Why is everyone whining? We can get something out of this. Go directly to GWHQ and show them this thread and stuff...

They wouldn't listen anyway.

**Da Stormlord**

They would if its a child, like i am. My dads let me send an email to GW customer service about it. I want to see if I get a response.

**Melissia**

WayneTheGame wrote:
AKA stop whining and deal with it,

Or rather, your "solution" to "make GW listen" is ineffectual. Try something else if you really are passionate about this.

**Da Stormlord**

You cant make them fix it if they don't listen in the first place

**Squidmanlolz**

GW's not going to listen, even if you get a majority of the fan base up in arms against the new codex. GW has never and will never put effort into fan-service. The new Eldar codex is business-as-usual and no amount of crying is going to change that.
The rage over the new codex represents a small, but vocal minority of 40k players.
GW doesn't care about competitive play or balance in the least.
All of the rage-quits and boycotts and tantrums that people have thrown over past releases have done NOTHING to garner even an iota of attention from GW.
The bottom line, and something everyone should realize by now is that GW doesn't care. They will go under before they acknowledge the fans' requests. That's just the way GW is, and it's something that GW fans have to live with.
Is it right that they ignore their fans? No. Is there anything that can be done? Not really, better men have tried. GW have set a stage where you you can take 40k or leave it. They have never minded driving players away in droves and the response to the Eldar dex will be no different.

**Vermis**

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
What is there to consider from someone saying "you're wasting your time, GW will never listen"?

Perhaps that you might avoid wasting your time because GW will never listen? What's this high-handed 'ignore' garbage about, anyway? How old are you, twelve?

You're not the first and you definitely won't be the last. If I had a pound for every call for a GW boycott or letter-writing campaign that I've seen, I'd have enough money for a GW army. GW doesn't care. They 'know' that all you little WAACers and listbuilders don't climb over your own grandmothers to buy this junk because it's balanced, but because it is unbalanced. Cor, doze elder has ded powerful gunz and get lots ov 'em. I kill lotsa minies without no brainpower - I just pay to win! I gotta have 'em!
For a long while they were right, too. These days, despite Toofast's delusions, their sales are dropping and I'd say at least a tiny part of that phenomenon is because fewer people are buying into this balance-churn of selling and reselling and reselling the same broken rubbish over and over again. It's arguably what killed WHFB 8th and forced the changes of 9th - people just stopped buying. (Whether GW still know how to make 9th a good game, after their years of catering for imbalance-indoctrinated min-maxers, is debateable.)

That's the answer. As others said, no need to waste your time with letters or emails that'll just go straight into the bin; just stop buying. If the models are awful, don't throw your piggy bank at them. Just stop buying. If the rules are crap and unenjoyable, don't keep punching yourself in the face with them. Just stop buying. It's not rocket science, and you definitely won't be going it alone if you just stop buying. You'll join an ever-growing club of wargamers. Welcome, brother. Welcome.

Or, alternatively, farewell, since I had the effrontery to dare question your ridiculous ideas. I guess I'm ignored now. I'll just have to cry into my pillow and take each day as it comes.

**Tannhauser42**

Voting with our wallets won't force a change. That's been done over the years to no effect (just look at GW's continued decline in sales year after year). GW won't change until one of two things happen: they're either about to hit the red, or the investors demand a change. Hitting the red is still some time away. Investors demanding a change? Not likely. The biggest investors are just large financial institutions that gladly accept the dividend checks as a return. Their GW holdings make up less than .1% of their total portfolio. As a result, when GW reaches the danger point for them, they'll simply take the easy way and dump the stock. What is needed to turn GW around is some bored millionaire (preferably one that actually plays GW games) who is willing to buy millions of dollars worth of GW stock, and use his shares to vote someone on to the board that will actually do something, but at the risk of losing his investment if the company still tanks anyway.

But that's not going to happen, and activist investors aren't always a good thing, anyway.

**Squidmanlolz**

GW's current strategy for garnering sales is exactly why the new Eldar codex is the way it is. They release codexes where the units they want/need to sell are the best units in the dex. You can bet that's why Wave Serpents took a nerf, they sold great last edition. You know that's why everything else got a buff. You know that there are more people buying new Eldar armies than there are people getting out of 40k forever.

**MWHistorian**

For the past year I took every cent I would have spent on 40k and given it to their competitors. Others have done the same and more people are leaving. The financials show that there is a definite effect.

**Talys**

Squidmanlolz wrote:
GW's current strategy for garnering sales is exactly why the new Eldar codex is the way it is. They release codexes where the units they want/need to sell are the best units in the dex. You can bet that's why Wave Serpents took a nerf, they sold great last edition. You know that's why everything else got a buff. You know that there are more people buying new Eldar armies than there are people getting out of 40k forever.

I don't think Wraithknight sales are going to go through the roof. The Warhost makes it all but impossible to build an effective army if you more than a couple, you can only take 1 in a CAD, and almost every tournament will let you take only 1. The Windrider, yes: they'll probably sell way more of those than they would have otherwise.

Also, your logic is contradicted by all the other codices, other than Necron -- if GW just wanted to push sales of their latest models, Harlequins would have been stupidly awesome (they're ok, but not THAT great), and Admech would have been stupidly awesome (again, ok, but not THAT great). In fact, every codex would escalate over the next, and that just hasn't been so.

The GW strategy is more like: "We love the elves. Make them more powerful! No.... MOAR!!!!!!" But this hasn't changed since the faction came out. The Eldar have always been GW's darling faction. Doesn't really bother me.

**TheCustomLime**

That has always confused me. Space Marines have, by far, the best lore, model and faction support. Yet the rules writers seem to favor Elfdar more. Maybe one writer is really crusading for his favorite faction and has little self restraint?

**Deschenus Maximus**

Da Stormlord wrote:Should I show the local GW store manager this thread?

Please do.

Runic wrote:I already emailed GW but not in a demanding kind of way, just asked if they have actually realized allowing 160 S6 shots to be put on the table with a price that doesn't limit the Eldar player too much, and if they realize it's a mistake.

Right on brother!

General Kroll wrote:Yeah, this is an international company with decades of experience doing this kind of thing.

They know what they are doing.

Good luck in your crusade though, I can see why people would be mad at this.

Thank you, but I disagree that they "know what they are doing". This smacks of QC fail. I'd say it was a deliberate move on GW's part to boost sales, but as the saying goes: never ascribe to malice that which can equaly be explained by incompetence.

murgel wrote:I just hope GW does to this idea as they do with all customer requests. Ignore it.

Please, be a nice little grown up and think before you scream bloody murder.

You have not read the codex. Delay judgement until after that.

You have not seen a list from this codex. Delay judgement until after that.

You have not played a few games against the codex. Delay judgement until after that.

There is potential for abuse here but this is everywhere and the cries of "game-breaker", "edition-killer", "blah-blah-blah" come with every single new codex, it is always "OP" "UP" ore something else terrible.

We have enough information now to make a pretty accurate guess as to what a competitive Eldar build will look like. And yes, it is indeed game-breaking.

Boniface wrote:I'm in.

My email to GW.

To whom it may concern.

I have recently had the unfortunateness to find out about your most recent planned release of a new Eldar codex and miniature range.

All I can say is I am disgusted with the company's direction.
Since the release of your 6th edition rule set you have done an incredible job of releasing garbage rules designed to support the sale of your newest units. In addition you have made some very obvious money grab moves such as changing the dire avengers boxed set from 10 to 5 men without actually doing anything to the models.
It has come to my attention that games workshop have made a decision to basically ruin your own game by making it completely unbalanced and favouring a small collection of armies by giving them really powerful rules and/or units.
You seem to have taken the approach that the game rules aren't your concern and you are a model company. If this were true you wouldn't keep releasing rules in such rapid succession.

With the latest incarnation of the Eldar codex, you have made no effort to produce a rule set that is even remotely balanced to the game and as such will ruin the game for everyone. Giving strength D weapons to a fair portion of the army options is in no way balanced. Worse still is giving jetbikes the ability to purchase scatter lasers or shuriken cannons. Do you know how the game works even on a pick up level? They can move 12" shoot 4 strength 6 shots at 36" and then move away in the assault phase. In addition they have objective secured. There is nothing in the game that can match this on any level and only one army that can possibly survive this, Necrons, who incidentally are also really badly designed.
I don't know if you care that a single squad of 10 jet bikes with scatter lasers or shuriken catapults is 270 points and have a damage output of the following.
10 bikes with scatter lasers has 40 shots, with shuriken cannons has 30 shots
Scatter lasers will average 26 hits, shuriken cannons will average 20 hits
Based on the average toughness or 4 or less squad the scatter laser will average 22 wounds whilst the shuriken cannon will cause 16 wounds about 3 of which are rending.

This is the average saves made by a squad based on their armour save.
5+ against a scatter laser 4 saves 18 unsaved, shuriken cannon is 16 dead models
4+ against a scatter laser 11 saves, 11 unsaved, shuriken cannon is 3 dead from rending, and about 6 or 7 saved and 6 or 7 unsaved
3+ scatter laser 15 saves, 7 unsaved, shuriken catapult is 3 dead from rending, 9 saved, 6 unsaved wounds
2+ scatter laser is 18 saves, 4 dead, shuriken cannon is 3 dead from rending, 11 saved, 2 unsaved wounds.

So this unit can effectively remove a squad a turn from the game.

Maybe you are unaware of how people 'actually' play the game or are hopelessly incompetent in writing rules.
Whatever the case as you have made the decision that your player base isn't important and as such I will no longer support your company financially.

I don't need a response to this email, I just wanted to let you know that you are destroying your own game because, believe it or not I care, I've been involved since 1990s (this is not meant to infer some form of prestige).
If your hope was to make more money from these abominable rules, you'll find the opposite to be true, players want to be able to play the game in a relatively fair manner and you are doing everything to prevent this.

Additionally I am going to be selling my models (which could result in lost sales for you) and will not be buying anything again.

A very disgruntled player and customer

Sam Boniface

Sent from my iPad

Thanks brother!

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I hope GW is going to read this.
However, you haven't pointed out how the game works without Jetbikes or Wraithguard with D cannons.
From the perspective of Marines the world looks diffentially.

I'm not sure I get what you mean exactly. Would you be so kind as to elaborate?

Wonderwolf wrote:Outraged email about rumoured rules read on the internet long before the book is actually released isn't gonna carry much authority (yes, despite the fact that the rules leaked are 99.9999% likely to be accurate).

Just sayin.

The dex drops in a week. Not going to really make a difference. But I get what you mean. If it was 6 months out I'd likely have waited.

Vector Strike wrote:I have another suggestion: why not a group (a large one or several small ones) in UK go to GW's HQ and politely ask someone to talk to them about the new Eldar codex?
You know, taking the situation to them, instead of just sending e-mails? E-mail can easily be cast aside, but groups going to GW cannot.

That is a great idea! If I lived in England, I'd actually be up for this!

Hopefully, somebody living in the UK will do it.

Tannhauser42 wrote:Emails and phone calls are easily ignored, sadly. If you really want to try something, mail actual letters to named individuals at GW HQ, and possibly even to the largest investors.

That's a fantastic idea! I hadn't thought of it.

Anybody know who the investors are? Or where one could find their name?

Ustis wrote:How about actually playing with the new rules first?

Soon enough we will see if these proposed point values are OP. Then GW will FAQ it...
If they don't then you can politely ask the eldar opponent to either tone down or leave out the windriders. Or just tap the next player in your FLGS on the shoulder and play him. Anyway, sending an identical email every day (which we know is not going to happen) is futile.
Come on guys this is being blown way out of proportion and there are many simple solutions to ensure your experience is still enjoyable...boohoo

If I had any fate that GW was going to FAQ this, I wouldn't bother.

And you can't refuse to play Eldar at a tournament.

Martel732 wrote:I play against blind opponents. Also, over half my play group will be using these things I guarantee you. And I have BA.

That being said, communicating with GW is a waste of time. The only thing you can do is vote with your feet and you wallet. I've already been voting with my wallet for 10+ years, so there's not much I can really do.

Voting with my wallet is exactly what I'm doing. I'm just letting GW know why, and telling them that I would resume purchasing their product if they improved it.

Martel732 wrote:There's likely nothing going to come of this no matter what people do. As in your Ferrarri example. Slowly but surely though, players will fall by the way side and not be replaced.

For example, I can't get my son to really play this. He likes assembling and painting, but won't play it over Starcraft or other computer games. And those games are just better anyway. So why should I push the matter?

I for one love this game too much to just stand by and watch it die without doing anything anymore. Hence this thread.

Seriously, doesn't the prospect of saving the game you enjoy warrant the not-even 5 minutes of your time to write/call GW?

Melissia wrote:Most of you wouldn't have bought any models anyway so your objection is meaningless.

I spend about a grand on GW products a year. Your assumption is quite mistaken.

Vermis wrote:Perhaps that you might avoid wasting your time because GW will never listen? What's this high-handed 'ignore' garbage about, anyway? How old are you, twelve?

You're not the first and you definitely won't be the last. If I had a pound for every call for a GW boycott or letter-writing campaign that I've seen, I'd have enough money for a GW army. GW doesn't care. They 'know' that all you little WAACers and listbuilders don't climb over your own grandmothers to buy this junk because it's balanced, but because it is unbalanced. Cor, doze elder has ded powerful gunz and get lots ov 'em. I kill lotsa minies without no brainpower - I just pay to win! I gotta have 'em!
For a long while they were right, too. These days, despite Toofast's delusions, their sales are dropping and I'd say at least a tiny part of that phenomenon is because fewer people are buying into this balance-churn of selling and reselling and reselling the same broken rubbish over and over again. It's arguably what killed WHFB 8th and forced the changes of 9th - people just stopped buying. (Whether GW still know how to make 9th a good game, after their years of catering for imbalance-indoctrinated min-maxers, is debateable.)

That's the answer. As others said, no need to waste your time with letters or emails that'll just go straight into the bin; just stop buying. If the models are awful, don't throw your piggy bank at them. Just stop buying. If the rules are crap and unenjoyable, don't keep punching yourself in the face with them. Just stop buying. It's not rocket science, and you definitely won't be going it alone if you just stop buying. You'll join an ever-growing club of wargamers. Welcome, brother. Welcome.

Or, alternatively, farewell, since I had the effrontery to dare question your ridiculous ideas. I guess I'm ignored now. I'll just have to cry into my pillow and take each day as it comes.

*sigh*

I edited out the part you quoted; might as well since I got sucked into responding to you all.

As for the rest of your post: I AM not buying minis. I am just going the extra step of telling GW why.

**AnomanderRake**

People have been bitching about "this is the last straw, time to boycott GW" with every single release since I started playing (early 4e) and likely before. I don't see why whining now is going to make them listen when they've spent a decade not listening.

**MWHistorian**

AnomanderRake wrote:
People have been bitching about "this is the last straw, time to boycott GW" with every single release since I started playing (early 4e) and likely before. I don't see why whining now is going to make them listen when they've spent a decade not listening.

GW's dropping sales says otherwise.

**TheCustomLime**

MWHistorian wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
People have been bitching about "this is the last straw, time to boycott GW" with every single release since I started playing (early 4e) and likely before. I don't see why whining now is going to make them listen when they've spent a decade not listening.
GW's dropping sales says otherwise.

Well, they still haven't addressed any of the balance issues soo... I think Rake may be onto something here. Maybe GW doesn't understand the problem?

**Chute82**

TheCustomLime wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
People have been bitching about "this is the last straw, time to boycott GW" with every single release since I started playing (early 4e) and likely before. I don't see why whining now is going to make them listen when they've spent a decade not listening.
GW's dropping sales says otherwise.

Well, they still haven't addressed any of the balance issues soo... I think Rake may be onto something here. Maybe GW doesn't understand the problem?

There was a online petition earlier this year or late last year directed to GW with over 10k of people who signed it... And guess what? Nothing happened, they don't listen

**AnomanderRake**

TheCustomLime wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
People have been bitching about "this is the last straw, time to boycott GW" with every single release since I started playing (early 4e) and likely before. I don't see why whining now is going to make them listen when they've spent a decade not listening.
GW's dropping sales says otherwise.

Well, they still haven't addressed any of the balance issues soo... I think Rake may be onto something here. Maybe GW doesn't understand the problem?

Their competitive advantage isn't the game. They're out to sell models, they couldn't care less if you play with them. If you care more about the game you'd be better off playing literally any other miniatures wargame in existence.

**Toofast**

Vermis wrote:
Deschenus Maximus wrote:
What is there to consider from someone saying "you're wasting your time, GW will never listen"?

Perhaps that you might avoid wasting your time because GW will never listen? What's this high-handed 'ignore' garbage about, anyway? How old are you, twelve?

You're not the first and you definitely won't be the last. If I had a pound for every call for a GW boycott or letter-writing campaign that I've seen, I'd have enough money for a GW army. GW doesn't care. They 'know' that all you little WAACers and listbuilders don't climb over your own grandmothers to buy this junk because it's balanced, but because it is unbalanced. Cor, doze elder has ded powerful gunz and get lots ov 'em. I kill lotsa minies without no brainpower - I just pay to win! I gotta have 'em!
For a long while they were right, too. These days, despite Toofast's delusions, their sales are dropping and I'd say at least a tiny part of that phenomenon is because fewer people are buying into this balance-churn of selling and reselling and reselling the same broken rubbish over and over again. It's arguably what killed WHFB 8th and forced the changes of 9th - people just stopped buying. (Whether GW still know how to make 9th a good game, after their years of catering for imbalance-indoctrinated min-maxers, is debateable.)

That's the answer. As others said, no need to waste your time with letters or emails that'll just go straight into the bin; just stop buying. If the models are awful, don't throw your piggy bank at them. Just stop buying. If the rules are crap and unenjoyable, don't keep punching yourself in the face with them. Just stop buying. It's not rocket science, and you definitely won't be going it alone if you just stop buying. You'll join an ever-growing club of wargamers. Welcome, brother. Welcome.

Or, alternatively, farewell, since I had the effrontery to dare question your ridiculous ideas. I guess I'm ignored now. I'll just have to cry into my pillow and take each day as it comes.

Where did I say anything about their overall revenue going up? I simply stated that more money will be made from people grabbing up jetbikes than lost from people quitting over this release. That isn't going to be enough to fix the many other problems with their business model. They would be down on revenue this year whether eldar were OP, UP or perfectly balanced. You put words in my mouth, argue against a point I never made and then call me the delusional one. I'm critical of GW about 99.9% of the time. Don't try to act like I'm some GW apologist claiming nothing is broken, everything is fine.

**TheCustomLime**

AnomanderRake wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
People have been bitching about "this is the last straw, time to boycott GW" with every single release since I started playing (early 4e) and likely before. I don't see why whining now is going to make them listen when they've spent a decade not listening.
GW's dropping sales says otherwise.

Well, they still haven't addressed any of the balance issues soo... I think Rake may be onto something here. Maybe GW doesn't understand the problem?

Their competitive advantage isn't the game. They're out to sell models, they couldn't care less if you play with them. If you care more about the game you'd be better off playing literally any other miniatures wargame in existence.

And that is why they are failing. GW does not understand their customer base at all.

**NH Gunsmith**

Ya know, I hear Warmachine, Hordes, Malifaux and Infinity are churning out some pretty good rules recently.

No, but I hear what the OP is saying, been playing GW games since third edition 40k, and have seen that they in fact do not listen or seem to care about the people who buy their product to keep their pay checks coming in. I have been doing my damnest to find alternate ways to spend my money, so moving over to other games has been my solution.

The Second Edition of Malifaux is pretty dang good, never played the First Edition, but read over the rulebooks and it is a pretty dang good game.

Have been playing Warmachine and Hordes since MKI and it has become my main wargame.

At this point I have been slowly selling off all of my GW stuff (Necromunda, BF:G, GorkaMorka, Mordheim, Fantasy, 40k) with no regrets other than some of the models I play with I have had since I started wargaming. My wallet is going to do my talking for me, Yea, it won't be a huge impact on GW now that I don't buy their products. But, I cannot support a company with the "excellent" customer service that is provided tothe gaming community by the Gee-Dub. With rules and editions constantly changing and invalidating whole army choices, the cost of rulebooks continuing to increase in cost. No thank you, sorry Games Workshop, you used to be tons of fun. But it isn't fun spending a small fortune on pewter and plastic toy soldiers.

**Deschenus Maximus**

ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:
Yea, it won't be a huge impact on GW now that I don't buy their products.

If it was only you, GW's financials wouldn't be where they are now.

People have been smart and voted with their feet, but the smartest things would have been to have been more vocal as to why they are doing so. Maybe things wouldn't be as bad as they are now had we all had spoken out more forcefully before.