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Lord Blackscale wrote: In regards to the Carcharodons, if they are the "evilish" Raven Guard that Corax sent away wouldn't that mean they are anything but newbies? Wasn't it during the Heresy? Not sure on the fluff at the moment.
Evilish? I think it's fair to say that what the Sharks did to the Endymion Cluster is on par with what the Night Lords did during the Great Crusade.
jakejackjake wrote:Source on them specifically not being of the wolves? The thing is there are literally no hints at your theory at all. Them being aggressive is like every single chapter in the right situation.
Technically, the Space Wolf fluff says they have no successors.
Yes, but if it's supposed to be a secret that would mean nothing.
Except that the Canis Helix would be apparent if they were wolf successors. and it isn't because they aren't... No i cannot point to a source that definitively says they are not wolf successors, just as you cannot point to one that definitively says they are... but i would imagine the stated fluff that the wolves have no viable surviving successor chapters
The Emperor Protects
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
Lord Blackscale wrote: In regards to the Carcharodons, if they are the "evilish" Raven Guard that Corax sent away wouldn't that mean they are anything but newbies? Wasn't it during the Heresy? Not sure on the fluff at the moment.
Where was that "Corax sending Evil Raven Guard away" mentioned? I see it brought up a lot, but haven't personally read it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/24 19:07:13
Lord Blackscale wrote: In regards to the Carcharodons, if they are the "evilish" Raven Guard that Corax sent away wouldn't that mean they are anything but newbies? Wasn't it during the Heresy? Not sure on the fluff at the moment.
Where was that "Corax sending Evil Raven Guard away" mentioned? I see it brought up a lot, but haven't personally read it.
Forge world Horus Heresy series background for the legion. The original Raven Guard Legion were terrifyingly, almost sadistically cruel, and attached from the shadows using fear and lightning strikes. Parts of their combat methods meshed really well with the Lycaean prisoners, but the cruelty bit didn't sit well with Corax, and a lot of the Terrans who didn't or couldn't change ended up on missions away from the main body of the legion.
Book 3 shows a pre-Corax legionary in dark grey armour, whose company was attached to a 'Nomad Predation Fleet' with sealed orders to go patrol the outer darkness just after Corax rejoined the legion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/24 19:15:24
Gotta sell those Space Shark shinies somehow, right? Oh, and they happen to wear a lot of older Marks of power armor too? Well, have I got good news for you! We sell those here at Forge World as well.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Lord Blackscale wrote: In regards to the Carcharodons, if they are the "evilish" Raven Guard that Corax sent away wouldn't that mean they are anything but newbies? Wasn't it during the Heresy? Not sure on the fluff at the moment.
Where was that "Corax sending Evil Raven Guard away" mentioned? I see it brought up a lot, but haven't personally read it.
Forge world Horus Heresy series background for the legion. The original Raven Guard Legion were terrifyingly, almost sadistically cruel, and attached from the shadows using fear and lightning strikes. Parts of their combat methods meshed really well with the Lycaean prisoners, but the cruelty bit didn't sit well with Corax, and a lot of the Terrans who didn't or couldn't change ended up on missions away from the main body of the legion.
Book 3 shows a pre-Corax legionary in dark grey armour, whose company was attached to a 'Nomad Predation Fleet' with sealed orders to go patrol the outer darkness just after Corax rejoined the legion.
Must have missed that part then.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does mean that I'm likely gonna go ahead with my idea of Terran Raven Guard that side with Horus though now.
Abandoned by Corax and all that jazz.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/24 19:59:00
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Veteran Sergeant wrote: Gotta sell those Space Shark shinies somehow, right? Oh, and they happen to wear a lot of older Marks of power armor too? Well, have I got good news for you! We sell those here at Forge World as well.
... like how the only way GW can get people to play Ultramarine successors is by making half of the special characters in the Sm codex Ultramarines-only?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Gotta sell those Space Shark shinies somehow, right? Oh, and they happen to wear a lot of older Marks of power armor too? Well, have I got good news for you! We sell those here at Forge World as well.
... like how the only way GW can get people to play Ultramarine successors is by making half of the special characters in the Sm codex Ultramarines-only?
yes because clearly their profit margin on Mcragge blue is much higher then on yellow. seriously I'm not sure what your conspiracy theory is trying to "prove" I'd argue that the UMs pay for those special characters with the hardest chapter tactics to master in the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/26 07:32:11
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I think the war hounds are a good theory for minotaur geneseed. I've never felt like the HH books have given a good picture for what the war hounds were like before the butcher's nails, but spartan-esque ala minotaurs seems to fit.
Space Sharks possibly being Raven Guard is old fluff (well, old as of the Badab Imperial Armour books), not a "recent development"
It was in the Badab War books that said their geneseed bore similar traits to the Raven Guard. HH Book 3 merely confirms it (well, as close to confirmation as we're going to get)
Space Wolves had one successor, the Wolf Brothers. It went HORRIBLY WRONG. Apparently the Canix Helix only works on people from Fenris and any attempt to pass it down to successors leads to BAD THINGS. They almost came up with a fix for it but then Magnus destroyed the labs and the lead apothecary in charge of the project (who was a genius that no other space wolf apothecary has ever been able to match) so the solution was lost forever.
Space Wolves thus can't have successor chapters even if the High Lords wanted them to (which they probably wouldn't )
Finally, the "traitor gene seed" thing is not just people going by tv tropes and applying it to the cursed founding. Again, the possibility of traitor gene seed was acknowledged IN-UNIVERSE (and no, people wouldn't call them "similar to the death guard" as an insult when discussing their gene seed, which is what it explicitly was stated to be, if they didn't mean to imply Death Guard gene seed. The context was explicitly in regards to where their gene seed came from and as a derogatory remark)
If Games-Workshop didn't want people to speculate on the possibility of traitor gene seed, they wouldn't have acknowledged the possibility of traitor gene-seed. If you don't like that, don't blame others for speculating on it. Blame Games Workshop because they're the ones that brought it up in the first place.
As for how did the mechanicum get Minotaurs gene seed to analyze (and thus find evidence that it's chimeric)? Beats me. We only know they did because they, well, analyzed it. They couldn't have done that if they didn't get ahold of it to analyze, you know.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/04/27 20:55:29
Yes, but in many stories agents of chaos succeeded to infiltrate the imperium facilities a traitor mechanicus could have get in and miss labeled some geneseed or even some of the more fanatic inquisitor factions could have been behind it.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Gotta sell those Space Shark shinies somehow, right? Oh, and they happen to wear a lot of older Marks of power armor too? Well, have I got good news for you! We sell those here at Forge World as well.
... like how the only way GW can get people to play Ultramarine successors is by making half of the special characters in the Sm codex Ultramarines-only?
yes because clearly their profit margin on Mcragge blue is much higher then on yellow. seriously I'm not sure what your conspiracy theory is trying to "prove" I'd argue that the UMs pay for those special characters with the hardest chapter tactics to master in the game.
How about bolter drill? Which sucks and while it can be mastered it will never hurt my army. Also are you joking me? Re rolling charges for assault marines is hard to master? erm lol re rolling any shot by tacs is tough? Being a relentless devastator makes life SO HARD
Space Wolves had one successor, the Wolf Brothers. It went HORRIBLY WRONG. Apparently the Canix Helix only works on people from Fenris and any attempt to pass it down to successors leads to BAD THINGS. They almost came up with a fix for it but then Magnus destroyed the labs and the lead apothecary in charge of the project (who was a genius that no other space wolf apothecary has ever been able to match) so the solution was lost forever.
Space Wolves thus can't have successor chapters even if the High Lords wanted them to (which they probably wouldn't )
.
Cept the entire 1,000,000 from the original legion who had 0 members from Fenris? Yeah O'm not buying the Canis Helix curse in the codex. It's a lie by the HLoT. The codices are just filled with Propoganda from one side or the other. It's as if it is narrated by the someone with an agenda. That's why Tau codex will say they beat the imperium in a series of engagements while the guard codex says something quite differemt
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/28 13:08:10
jakejackjake wrote: Cept the entire 1,000,000 from the original legion who had 0 members from Fenris? Yeah O'm not buying the Canis Helix curse in the codex. It's a lie by the HLoT. The codices are just filled with Propoganda from one side or the other. It's as if it is narrated by the someone with an agenda. That's why Tau codex will say they beat the imperium in a series of engagements while the guard codex says something quite differemt
They never numbered anywhere near a million, but you raise a good point about the space wolves that existed before Leman Russ and Fenris were even discovered. Although I will admit I don't know a whole lot about the whole Canis Helix thing, so maybe a space wolf fan can enlighten us.
jakejackjake wrote: Cept the entire 1,000,000 from the original legion who had 0 members from Fenris? Yeah O'm not buying the Canis Helix curse in the codex. It's a lie by the HLoT. The codices are just filled with Propoganda from one side or the other. It's as if it is narrated by the someone with an agenda. That's why Tau codex will say they beat the imperium in a series of engagements while the guard codex says something quite differemt
They never numbered anywhere near a million, but you raise a good point about the space wolves that existed before Leman Russ and Fenris were even discovered. Although I will admit I don't know a whole lot about the whole Canis Helix thing, so maybe a space wolf fan can enlighten us.
Wasnt it Magnus that cursed their gene seed so that it can only be placed in those from Fenris?
Azreal13 wrote: Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.
BA 6000; 1250
Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Gotta sell those Space Shark shinies somehow, right? Oh, and they happen to wear a lot of older Marks of power armor too? Well, have I got good news for you! We sell those here at Forge World as well.
... like how the only way GW can get people to play Ultramarine successors is by making half of the special characters in the Sm codex Ultramarines-only?
yes because clearly their profit margin on Mcragge blue is much higher then on yellow. seriously I'm not sure what your conspiracy theory is trying to "prove" I'd argue that the UMs pay for those special characters with the hardest chapter tactics to master in the game.
How about bolter drill? Which sucks and while it can be mastered it will never hurt my army. Also are you joking me? Re rolling charges for assault marines is hard to master? erm lol re rolling any shot by tacs is tough? Being a relentless devastator makes life SO HARD
The difficulty a lot of people have is knowing the right turn to use the ability, it requires people to think about what they are doing this present turn and what they will be trying to do on their next turn. Alot of players have difficulty getting used to just how much you need to plan ahead.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Gotta sell those Space Shark shinies somehow, right? Oh, and they happen to wear a lot of older Marks of power armor too? Well, have I got good news for you! We sell those here at Forge World as well.
... like how the only way GW can get people to play Ultramarine successors is by making half of the special characters in the Sm codex Ultramarines-only?
yes because clearly their profit margin on Mcragge blue is much higher then on yellow. seriously I'm not sure what your conspiracy theory is trying to "prove" I'd argue that the UMs pay for those special characters with the hardest chapter tactics to master in the game.
How about bolter drill? Which sucks and while it can be mastered it will never hurt my army. Also are you joking me? Re rolling charges for assault marines is hard to master? erm lol re rolling any shot by tacs is tough? Being a relentless devastator makes life SO HARD
The difficulty a lot of people have is knowing the right turn to use the ability, it requires people to think about what they are doing this present turn and what they will be trying to do on their next turn. Alot of players have difficulty getting used to just how much you need to plan ahead.
You should be thinking that far ahead for all your units and then reevaluating based off if your opponent acts unpredictably anyway. That's how you play strategy games. It just makes the chapter tactics more fun because the mechanic isn't automatic
jakejackjake wrote: Cept the entire 1,000,000 from the original legion who had 0 members from Fenris? Yeah O'm not buying the Canis Helix curse in the codex. It's a lie by the HLoT. The codices are just filled with Propoganda from one side or the other. It's as if it is narrated by the someone with an agenda. That's why Tau codex will say they beat the imperium in a series of engagements while the guard codex says something quite differemt
They never numbered anywhere near a million, but you raise a good point about the space wolves that existed before Leman Russ and Fenris were even discovered. Although I will admit I don't know a whole lot about the whole Canis Helix thing, so maybe a space wolf fan can enlighten us.
Wasnt it Magnus that cursed their gene seed so that it can only be placed in those from Fenris?
I don't know. That'd be kind of cool I spose
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/28 15:56:37
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Gotta sell those Space Shark shinies somehow, right? Oh, and they happen to wear a lot of older Marks of power armor too? Well, have I got good news for you! We sell those here at Forge World as well.
... like how the only way GW can get people to play Ultramarine successors is by making half of the special characters in the Sm codex Ultramarines-only?
yes because clearly their profit margin on Mcragge blue is much higher then on yellow. seriously I'm not sure what your conspiracy theory is trying to "prove" I'd argue that the UMs pay for those special characters with the hardest chapter tactics to master in the game.
How about bolter drill? Which sucks and while it can be mastered it will never hurt my army. Also are you joking me? Re rolling charges for assault marines is hard to master? erm lol re rolling any shot by tacs is tough? Being a relentless devastator makes life SO HARD
The difficulty a lot of people have is knowing the right turn to use the ability, it requires people to think about what they are doing this present turn and what they will be trying to do on their next turn. Alot of players have difficulty getting used to just how much you need to plan ahead.
You should be thinking that far ahead for all your units and then reevaluating based off if your opponent acts unpredictably anyway. That's how you play strategy games. It just makes the chapter tactics more fun because the mechanic isn't automatic
Yes, that is how people should play, but that isnt how the majority of people play. Even when they do many prefer the bonus' that last the whole game, not just a turn. It's easier to plan for a constant effect.
Cept the entire 1,000,000 from the original legion who had 0 members from Fenris? Yeah O'm not buying the Canis Helix curse in the codex. It's a lie by the HLoT. The codices are just filled with Propoganda from one side or the other. It's as if it is narrated by the someone with an agenda. That's why Tau codex will say they beat the imperium in a series of engagements while the guard codex says something quite differemt
Well, despite the fact that I agree with the fact that codex fluff is primarily propaganda set from a certain point of view, it is one of the main sources of cannon we have to go on, and because, when we get down to it, we are debating the subjective fluff of a fictional universe created by a disjointed set of writers who didn't really collaborate, but took their own story threads in whatever direction they wanted with selectively applied connections and acknowledgements to any other writer or fluff, if we doubt the veracity of the codex fluff we really have no basis for any insight into this universe. Therefore there is little point of debate or discussion if we dismiss codex fluff. We have to consider codex fluff and BL books cannon because otherwise we are trying to analyze minute details we are getting third hand of a story we have no way of analyzing otherwise. If it isn't specifically stated, it is up for debate, but if it is printed in cannon, we have to use it and accept it for what it is.
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Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
Considering that the only chapter the Space Wolves founded off Fenris spiralled away into chaotic mutation, the canis helix is a very real part of their gene seed. That was the entire point of the Battle of the Fang- Magnus wrecked a Wolf Priest's secret project to try to stabilize their gene seed to allow for the production of successors.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Gotta sell those Space Shark shinies somehow, right? Oh, and they happen to wear a lot of older Marks of power armor too? Well, have I got good news for you! We sell those here at Forge World as well.
... like how the only way GW can get people to play Ultramarine successors is by making half of the special characters in the Sm codex Ultramarines-only?
You get a real hard-on for talking trash about the Ultramarines.
Tell me, has it ever occurred to you that it's possible for you to make posts that are a valuable contribution to the forum, and not simply to cover it in as much gak as possible?
Really, I'll ask the same question I've asked everybody else who makes your non-point, and you won't be able to answer it with anything reasonable nor intelligent, just like they weren't. Why is it okay for the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels to get featured in their own books, but not the Ultramarines?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jehan-reznor wrote: even some of the more fanatic inquisitor factions could have been behind it.
But why? For what gain?
Just for gaks and giggles doesn't really seem like a valid motivation.
Besides, Inquisitors don't have that kind of power. The creation of a Space Marine Chapter is a massive undertaking, requiring the efforts of nearly all the major factions in the Imperium at some point, and subject to trmendous oversight. It isn't like an Inquisitor can build a Space Marine Chapter (and all of its ships, tanks, armor and weapons) in his back yard when nobody is looking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/29 01:06:43
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
I don't hate the ultra marines... but I would argue the space marine codex is their book. They represent t complete adherence to the codex astartes... the codex space marine... they are the poster boys of the space marine faction and they are unarguably the most powerful astartes force in the galaxy. The sheer number of successor chapters alone shows that. Salamnders, white scars, imperial fists all adhere to the codex astartes in some ways, arguably more so than the dark angels and the blood angels and definitly more than the space wolves.
The real question is, do people hate the ultramarine for any reasons beyond these:
1. Because they are the poster child and the establishment backed group,and for this reason some people,who mostly want to be contrarian hate them
2. People also dislike them because they take up so much room other chapters are like foot notes, but crunch wise they are... the difference between an ultramarine force and another codex space marine chapters are literally chapter tactics, some special characters and paint scheme... (black templar excluded, they were probably folded back in due to lack of interest in their army much like sob. .. that is my guess.)
so if people hate them for either of those reasons it is because they are holding fluff above crunch... and the fact is crunch is what sells the game and what makes the game work... it wouldn't be cost effective to have differentiated codexes for each chapter when over half of their fan base plays vanilla marines of some flavor... they sell universal kits and repackaged codex for all space marine chapters (barring the 5 exceptions)to all fo their space Maine players,who vastly vastly outnumber other factions, let alone specialty marine players, and make a tone of money... and that is why the other non specialty chapters get no love...
The Emperor Protects
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
There was a "Big Four" decided on in the early 90s. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines.
Getting upset over that decision has to be one of the silliest behaviors of 40K fans. It just is what it is, and the Ultramarines are no different from the Bangels, Dangels and Spwolves in that regard. But nobody gets angry at the Blood Angels for getting characters, or the Dangels, or the Wolves. Nope, it's always the Ultramarines people get angry at (hilariously irrationally) for getting "special treatment". You know, special like those other three.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Gotta sell those Space Shark shinies somehow, right? Oh, and they happen to wear a lot of older Marks of power armor too? Well, have I got good news for you! We sell those here at Forge World as well.
... like how the only way GW can get people to play Ultramarine successors is by making half of the special characters in the Sm codex Ultramarines-only?
yes because clearly their profit margin on Mcragge blue is much higher then on yellow. seriously I'm not sure what your conspiracy theory is trying to "prove" I'd argue that the UMs pay for those special characters with the hardest chapter tactics to master in the game.
How about bolter drill? Which sucks and while it can be mastered it will never hurt my army. Also are you joking me? Re rolling charges for assault marines is hard to master? erm lol re rolling any shot by tacs is tough? Being a relentless devastator makes life SO HARD
The difficulty a lot of people have is knowing the right turn to use the ability, it requires people to think about what they are doing this present turn and what they will be trying to do on their next turn. Alot of players have difficulty getting used to just how much you need to plan ahead.
Pretty much. I never said the UM chapter tactics are weak, I said they where hard to MASTER. a good general is going to really REALLY clean house with CT:UM. whereas a bad general is going to be mostly ineffective. compare this to the other chapter tactics that provide a nice solid passive bonus that it's easy to remember because you're constantly using them.
but this doesn't mean their chapter tactics are WEAK.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Veteran Sergeant wrote: There was a "Big Four" decided on in the early 90s. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines.
Getting upset over that decision has to be one of the silliest behaviors of 40K fans. It just is what it is, and the Ultramarines are no different from the Bangels, Dangels and Spwolves in that regard. But nobody gets angry at the Blood Angels for getting characters, or the Dangels, or the Wolves. Nope, it's always the Ultramarines people get angry at (hilariously irrationally) for getting "special treatment".
I think people need to step back and remember that it was originally "Codex: Ultramarines" not "codex Space Marines"
basicly UMs where the chapter chosen to lose their special snowflake unique codex and generously share their 'dex with all the other chapters. some favortism.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/29 09:27:45
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I believe a lot of the Ultramarines hate comes from Matt Ward's fluff. They became the "spiritual liege" of all but a few "aberrant " chapters. For any non-Ultramarine or successor chapter, that was a kick in the teeth.
the Signless wrote: I believe a lot of the Ultramarines hate comes from Matt Ward's fluff. They became the "spiritual liege" of all but a few "aberrant " chapters. For any non-Ultramarine or successor chapter, that was a kick in the teeth.
MW's stuff is pretty much POV and you should look at Deathwatch 2010 for the clues there. its wishful thinking at best, picking and choosing the truth at worst. It has never been confirmed elsewhere nor has it ever been practiced. Its pure MW-fiction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/01 01:41:16
BrianDavion wrote:I think people need to step back and remember that it was originally "Codex: Ultramarines" not "codex Space Marines"
basicly UMs where the chapter chosen to lose their special snowflake unique codex and generously share their 'dex with all the other chapters. some favortism.
I feel like this was a marketing decision more than anything else.
Changing it to Codex: Space Marines made it more clear what the "regular" Space Marine army book was.
The painting guides and fluff still remained Ultramarines, all the way through 5th Edition. Heck, 4th Edition's codex called the guides "How to Paint an Ultramarine" and "Painting Ultramarines Tanks". Nobody should have ever been confused about whose book it really was.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
1) the wolves were one of the smallest legions during the great crusade. They also lost their entire 13th company (well over a thousand warriors) as well as casualties from the crusade, heresy and subsequent scouring campaign. It is feasible to argue that there was only enough survivors to form a couple of successors at most.
2)Traitor gene seed from the Terran vaults is not necessarily tainted, most gene seeds have various flaws and evolutionary quirks, but on the whole traitor gene seed is pretty stable. The EC were affected by Fabius' medellings with Laer pheromones, the WE by the butchers nails, NL by the brutal nature of nostramo etc.
3) the inquisition is cloaked in secrecy as are many of the adeptus organisations, it would be quite straightforward for a radical inquisitor or a high Lord wanting to "fight fire with fire" to hide the origin of gene seed.
4) to most of the imperium the heresy and the traitor legions are a myth or are hidden all together. The thought that entire armies of humanities finest could turn from the emperors light is not something they are keen to shout about. Only the space marine chapters, the inquisition, the administration high ups, high lords, and other high ranking individuals know the true nature of the CSMs. This suggests that it would be less likely for people to gossip and speculate on the origins of a chapter.
GKTiberius wrote: So, the Minotaurs are attack dogs of the imperium, but they don't know who their founders are. Some things I have read said they are chimeric, meaning multiple geneseed donors, but I assert that they have one founder, World Eaters, or more specifically War Hounds. Much like the widely conjectured Blood Ravens that are said to be Thousand Son descendants, I think the same is true of the Minotaurs. It would explain their berserker nature, single minded proclivities and why the High Lords would; want to keep their founding so Hush Hush. They were made out of the Gene stock of the old War Hounds legion, stored pre-corruption. How likely is this? Plausible or way of base?, and please explain your response if you disagree.
Why is this a better theory than the Chimeric one?
Where is your evidence?
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
)
BA 6000; 
1250
Corbulo is practicaly Jesus with a chainsword 
