Grav Devastators vs Grav Centurions

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Thud**

Sir Arun wrote:
This just in from natfka:

-Grav Cannon with amp is NOT 7 but 4 melta bombs.

Jesus H Christ now things are looking VERY different.

45 point difference between Grav Dev and Grav Cent

Grav cannons are only 20 points in France. See my previous post, and don't trust Natfka, you silly goose.

**obsidiankatana**

Fractional numbers in regards to the HP caused by grav weapons can be misleading. Remember, grav doesn't hurt vehicles like other weapons. 1 HP and immobilize for first shot, 2 HP for the second shot and the tank's dead. It inflicts 3 HP on 2 6's, not 2 HP unless you're facing Superheavies.

**Crazyterran**

In a full battle company, I would go with devastators.

In a cad, I would go with centurions.

In a cad, 245 for Devs with a pod, 275 for centurions with a pod. 285 if you take an omniscope. Gets you three more shots, better survivability, relentless, etc.

In a gladius that's been upgraded to a full company, you can't get the dev centurions a pod, and the devastators get it for free. I suppose you can make a cad for your Tigurius and the pod, but meh. At that point you might as well spend the extra points elsewhere, like 2 more Grav cannons for your tacs or other dev squad.

**Bharring**

Dev Tactics got "streamlined".

I'm going to miss my one turn of relentless devs *and* rerolling snapshots.

Now its just Tac Tactics, but for Devs. Just a blimey reroll to hit for Devs/DevCents, and reroll 1's for everyone else.

Because nothing says tactical depth like just a straight to-hit increase...

**Exergy**

obsidiankatana wrote:
Fractional numbers in regards to the HP caused by grav weapons can be misleading. Remember, grav doesn't hurt vehicles like other weapons. 1 HP and immobilize for first shot, 2 HP for the second shot and the tank's dead. It inflicts 3 HP on 2 6's, not 2 HP unless you're facing Superheavies.

and that gets soaked often if the vehicle has 2 HP to start or if it has already taken damage.

The imobilized is great though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ansacs wrote:
SonsofVulkan wrote:
Yep thats why it can be a complete expensive point sink to run GravDevs against certain armies(Orks, Daemons, IG), too much rock paper scissors.

I here this a lot but it often is not true at all. When you get to reroll wounds there is very few targets that the weapon is actually bad against.

Against any vehicle the grav devs will average 3 glances which are all immobilized results...so even a landraider is dead in a single turn. Most IG lists will bring either some vehicles or at least flyers (1 hp and immobilized on average). Even if no vehicles are present grav cents average 6 wounds against Sv5+. Which means artillery units can take a pretty decent number of wounds if nothing else.

Most of the best Ork units have a 4+ armour save (warbikes, deffkopters) or are vehicles. Against Sv4+ grav devs will put out 8 wounds on the drop. Entirely decent actually, ironically better damage than heavy bolters would do and they can fire from DSing drop pods.

Daemons are the only army that is hard to talk about. If the opponent doesn't take a 3+ save daemon princes, AV13 walkers, or units with Toughness 7+ then yeah grav is pretty bad. Even then it still should average 3 wounds a volley from DS which against some daemon targets is pretty decent but against most is pretty bad. This is why I think you will see a lot of 2 grav devs in drop pods as a common element in a lot of lists. This gives you enough firepower to kill 2 wraithknights in a single turn but keeps the pts investment down to ~500 pts which leaves plenty for TAC squads or scouts which are both good against poor armour save units.

What about DE?
Sure you can glance/imobilize their boats, but the boats are cheap and you have to go through 3+ jink. All the 5+ and 6+ warriors and wracks, it would be far better to just have bolters.

Unless they have a talos, I dont see it being valuable.

**Crimson**

How are people feeling about grav cannons on tactical squads?

**Exergy**

Crimson wrote:
How are people feeling about grav cannons on tactical squads?

when a weapon costs 35 points, 49 with the Marine toting it, it is nice to have a few wound catchers....

Also rhinos have firepoints....

**Sir Arun**

Well you better stay put with the Rhino or you'll be snap shooting

**Poly Ranger**

I've been away for a while so only just seen this.

Devs can take grav for 35pts. Raptors get outflank via scout on infantry units (plus raven guard still?). Rhinos will be FA in the new codex.

30 devs in 6 combat squads, 12 gravs with amps and 6 rhinos (3 DTs and 3 FAs) comes to 1050pts. Gives 12 firepoints and outflank, so no worry about range. 18 abalative wounds plus 24hps of the rhinos. 4 combat squads with 8 grav and 4 rhinos comes to 700pts. (Assuming Devs and rhinos the same price).

**Thud**

Poly Ranger wrote:
I've been away for a while so only just seen this.

Devs can take grav for 35pts. Raptors get outflank via scout on infantry units (plus raven guard still?). Rhinos will be FA in the new codex.

30 devs in 6 combat squads, 12 gravs with amps and 6 rhinos (3 DTs and 3 FAs) comes to 1050pts. Gives 12 firepoints and outflank, so no worry about range. 18 abalative wounds plus 24hps of the rhinos. 4 combat squads with 8 grav and 4 rhinos comes to 700pts. (Assuming Devs and rhinos the same price).

There's a better way.

Khan
Chaplain
6x5 Tacticals w/ grav cannon
2x5 Assault Marines w/ 2x flamer, combiflamer
2x5 Devs w/ 4x grav cannons

1435

In addition you'll need one Auxiliary choice from the Gladius Strike Force (cheapest one is 3x5 Scouts for 165).

Everything I listed above gets a free transport (Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod), Scouts due to Khan (if they take Rhinos or Razorbacks), hit and run, Combat Doctrines (basically UM Chapter Tactics, if you're not familiar with the new book), and Objective Secured.

The Assault Marines and Devs can be swapped for other options (such as an Attack Bike in place of the AM, or Dev Cents in place of the Devs) if you want to save points or add more punch. The above build, though, gives you ten obsec Rhino chassis, ten obsec combat squads, tons of mobility, a great alpha strike, and points left for some more action. At 2k you can fit in a Command Squad on bikes, a Chapter Master to go with them, and a bike for your Chaplain and Khan. And that little death star will be obsec as long as Khan or the Chaplain are still with them.

**Desubot**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Desubot wrote:
SonsofVulkan wrote:
Devs should stick with the standard ML or LC, I'd go with the ML for the cost especially now you have abilities to give them sky fire

did the price for ML pop up yet?
Yes they did. They are the same price as the previous codex. Flakk Missiles are unchanged as well. Zero price reduction and zero reason to take Flakk Missiles.

Da feth is wrong with them.

**Poly Ranger**

That is excellent! Minus one grav cannon and you can take the formation of 2 talons with skyhammers and a raven with tl mm/tl ac. Now there is excellent AA too!

Or swap the AMs for MM ABs. Gain 90pts. Get the grav cannon back and an extra MM AB.

**Fisheyes**

Thank you for spelling that out. I had not yet got around to calculating how much it would be.

**jakejackjake**

SonsofVulkan wrote:
ansacs wrote:
SonsofVulkan wrote:
Yep thats why it can be a complete expensive point sink to run GravDevs against certain armies(Orks, Daemons, IG), too much rock paper scissors.

I here this a lot but it often is not true at all. When you get to reroll wounds there is very few targets that the weapon is actually bad against.

Against any vehicle the grav devs will average 3 glances which are all immobilized results...so even a landraider is dead in a single turn. Most IG lists will bring either some vehicles or at least flyers (1 hp and immobilized on average). Even if no vehicles are present grav cents average 6 wounds against Sv5+. Which means artillery units can take a pretty decent number of wounds if nothing else.

Most of the best Ork units have a 4+ armour save (warbikes, deffkopters) or are vehicles. Against Sv4+ grav devs will put out 8 wounds on the drop. Entirely decent actually, ironically better damage than heavy bolters would do and they can fire from DSing drop pods.

Daemons are the only army that is hard to talk about. If the opponent doesn't take a 3+ save daemon princes, AV13 walkers, or units with Toughness 7+ then yeah grav is pretty bad. Even then it still should average 3 wounds a volley from DS which against some daemon targets is pretty decent but against most is pretty bad. This is why I think you will see a lot of 2 grav devs in drop pods as a common element in a lot of lists. This gives you enough firepower to kill 2 wraithknights in a single turn but keeps the pts investment down to ~500 pts which leaves plenty for TAC squads or scouts which are both good against poor armour save units.

Check your math... A unit of GravDev comes in on drop pod will have 12 grav shots total, even with re-rolls it will deal only 1.72 hull points to a vehicle and 3.4 wounds to Sv5 and 6.8 to Sv4(before any cover or invuln saves). Thats just not enough damage output for the cost of the unit.

Not many good IG lists in GTs anymore(mechguard is not that viable anymore), but you'll still see some guy bringing fearless guard blobs with different gimmicks to give them FNP and/or a invuln save. 3-7 dead guardsman in a blob is nothing...

Top GT Ork lists usually include war bikers(jink), tankbustas spam in gun trukks, and green tide and some KFF.

I highly doubt Drop podded GravDevs will make their points back against certain armies, they will likely die the next turn. At least CentStars are more resilient with invisibility and gating to avoid being tar pitted. Look if grav cannon has 36-48" range and doesn't cost 35 pts each for a Dev squad, then yes I might see it as a decent choice.

I don't understand. You bring the 35 pt drop pod and you still don't have to put them in it. You can decided

**casvalremdeikun**

Desubot wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Desubot wrote:
SonsofVulkan wrote:
Devs should stick with the standard ML or LC, I'd go with the ML for the cost especially now you have abilities to give them sky fire

did the price for ML pop up yet?
Yes they did. They are the same price as the previous codex. Flakk Missiles are unchanged as well. Zero price reduction and zero reason to take Flakk Missiles.

Da feth is wrong with them.

I really want to find the dirtbag that said that CML, TML, and regular ML come with Flakk Missiles stock, and burn one of their eyes out.

**akwing00**

are the grav centurions able to take drop pods in a gladius strike force at all, or do you have to take a combined arms detachment along side it to bring in FA drop pods?

**casvalremdeikun**

akwing00 wrote:
are the grav centurions able to take drop pods in a gladius strike force at all, or do you have to take a combined arms detachment along side it to bring in FA drop pods?

Nope. There are no FA slots for them to choose, and Land Raiders are their only DT.

**akwing00**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
akwing00 wrote:
are the grav centurions able to take drop pods in a gladius strike force at all, or do you have to take a combined arms detachment along side it to bring in FA drop pods?
Nope. There are no FA slots for them to choose, and Land Raiders are their only DT.

thanks, gives me something to think about, might just have to get some devestators now if i want to take a demi or full company.

**darkcloak**

Personally I would go with the cheaper option.

Grav Devs come out to 210 for 5 guys and 4 guns. Cents start at a buck ninety, add in the guns and that's a lot of points. Even more if you wanna add in more models and guns.

The real question though is how do these two grav platforms compare to the other big grav slinger? Bikes!

Now that you can take min squad bikes as troops you don't have to spend as much on fielding those 6 slots for MSU.

I think the real winner may be bikes... 12 grav guns and maybe 6 combi-grav... 618 points to put real meat in your list.

**raiden**

Grav devs, take skyhammer formation, watch as opponent is drowned in grav cannons. Clean up afterwards with assault squads, luagh as the eldar player limps home after taking both his wraithknights off the table T1

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Run smurfs for twinlinked goodness when they auto come in.

**Mavnas**

Devs also get to fire overwatch, which is going to hurt.

**Saythings**

IIRC all chapter tactics get 1 set of doctrines, UM just get two sets of doctrines. Also, if you run Demi-Company and UM, you get 3 sets of doctrines.

Earlier today I ran Raven Guard for the shred (reroll to wound) on my HoW attacks on my ASMs and TL on my Gravs (with Dev Doctrine), as well as to soften the counter fire with free Shrouded Turn1. I liked how it was looking but I need to work on what else is in the army (the supporting army)