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Martel732 wrote:
The 90s called and want their codex system back. Codices should be online and updated in real time.

HERESY!

Let's be real - ALL OF THE RULES should be online and freely available.

I like to buy the books, cause I like... well... books. So do lots of players. Having the rules available for free online isn't going to stop us from buying the hard copy.

Having the rules behind a paywall sure as hell isn't stopping people from getting their hands on the rules for free. I mean geez, even with the forum restrictions, you could pretty much piece together the contents of most codices right here on dakka, let alone tactics sites like 1d4chan and such. No piracy required.

The subset of people who WOULD have bought the rules but decided to steal them instead because money or whatever is, I'm willing to bet, a frighteningly small number.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
What I really don't understand is how easy it is to write a FAQ about the numerous mistakes they make and yet they wont.

Biggest one that springs to mind is the whole Demonology debate, who can take it and who can't. The new Rulebook says anyone can take it unless expressly forbidden. And all the new codex's specifically say which powers you are allowed to take. Why not write a FAQ for each race stating if they can or can't take the damn psychic power? No? to easy?

well they probably do it for....Balance.

from what I understand, anyone can take demonology, only that daemons don't peril on doubles.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
What I really don't understand is how easy it is to write a FAQ about the numerous mistakes they make and yet they wont.

I think it's that they ultimately don't care. They simply are not interested in supporting their rules, to GW corporate, they're simply a side product that allow people to do something with the plastic army men that GW sells them. To GW, the customer is buying models simply because they enjoy building and painting them, gaming is a secondary or tertiary activity between basement buddies that don't care about how it actually functions, just how it looks. That's how they describe their market to shareholders.

As such, they don't put much effort into it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
What I really don't understand is how easy it is to write a FAQ about the numerous mistakes they make and yet they wont.

I think it's that they ultimately don't care. They simply are not interested in supporting their rules, to GW corporate, they're simply a side product that allow people to do something with the plastic army men that GW sells them. To GW, the customer is buying models simply because they enjoy building and painting them, gaming is a secondary or tertiary activity between basement buddies that don't care about how it actually functions, just how it looks. That's how they describe their market to shareholders.

As such, they don't put much effort into it.

I really have to wonder about their business model because they're not even competent soulless money grubbers like EA. A blanket refusal to advertise because of their belief that a small dedicated fanbase is better than pushing out to the masses, and yet continually making decisions to alienate said fanbase seems like the weird kind of nether-logic you see get made fun of in a Monty Python sketch.

 Johnnytorrance wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
What I really don't understand is how easy it is to write a FAQ about the numerous mistakes they make and yet they wont.

Biggest one that springs to mind is the whole Demonology debate, who can take it and who can't. The new Rulebook says anyone can take it unless expressly forbidden. And all the new codex's specifically say which powers you are allowed to take. Why not write a FAQ for each race stating if they can or can't take the damn psychic power? No? to easy?

well they probably do it for....Balance.

from what I understand, anyone can take demonology, only that daemons don't peril on doubles.

Grey knights cant take malefic, daemons can't take santic (unless you take the blue scribes)

Also, all of the faqs for my armies do actually state that they can take daemonology

 Kain wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
What I really don't understand is how easy it is to write a FAQ about the numerous mistakes they make and yet they wont.

I think it's that they ultimately don't care. They simply are not interested in supporting their rules, to GW corporate, they're simply a side product that allow people to do something with the plastic army men that GW sells them. To GW, the customer is buying models simply because they enjoy building and painting them, gaming is a secondary or tertiary activity between basement buddies that don't care about how it actually functions, just how it looks. That's how they describe their market to shareholders.

As such, they don't put much effort into it.

I really have to wonder about their business model because they're not even competent soulless money grubbers like EA. A blanket refusal to advertise because of their belief that a small dedicated fanbase is better than pushing out to the masses, and yet continually making decisions to alienate said fanbase seems like the weird kind of nether-logic you see get made fun of in a Monty Python sketch.

Down that path lies only madness, friend. There are some things man was not meant to know. Do not stray from the trail, lest ye be eaten by Grues, or worse.

 Kain wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
What I really don't understand is how easy it is to write a FAQ about the numerous mistakes they make and yet they wont.

I think it's that they ultimately don't care. They simply are not interested in supporting their rules, to GW corporate, they're simply a side product that allow people to do something with the plastic army men that GW sells them. To GW, the customer is buying models simply because they enjoy building and painting them, gaming is a secondary or tertiary activity between basement buddies that don't care about how it actually functions, just how it looks. That's how they describe their market to shareholders.

As such, they don't put much effort into it.

I really have to wonder about their business model because they're not even competent soulless money grubbers like EA. A blanket refusal to advertise because of their belief that a small dedicated fanbase is better than pushing out to the masses, and yet continually making decisions to alienate said fanbase seems like the weird kind of nether-logic you see get made fun of in a Monty Python sketch.

This is a company that had their CEO, Chairman of the Board, and one of their top 5 or 6 shareholders be the same person, and then curiously opt to *borrow* money to pay dividends, resulting the aforementioned individual happening to double their yearly income.

They refuse to engage with their customer base in just about any way, and it's no surprise that their revenue is declining (in inflation adjusted terms) just about every single year.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
What I really don't understand is how easy it is to write a FAQ about the numerous mistakes they make and yet they wont.

I think it's that they ultimately don't care. They simply are not interested in supporting their rules, to GW corporate, they're simply a side product that allow people to do something with the plastic army men that GW sells them. To GW, the customer is buying models simply because they enjoy building and painting them, gaming is a secondary or tertiary activity between basement buddies that don't care about how it actually functions, just how it looks. That's how they describe their market to shareholders.

As such, they don't put much effort into it.

I really have to wonder about their business model because they're not even competent soulless money grubbers like EA. A blanket refusal to advertise because of their belief that a small dedicated fanbase is better than pushing out to the masses, and yet continually making decisions to alienate said fanbase seems like the weird kind of nether-logic you see get made fun of in a Monty Python sketch.

This is a company that had their CEO, Chairman of the Board, and one of their top 5 or 6 shareholders be the same person, and then curiously opt to *borrow* money to pay dividends, resulting the aforementioned individual happening to double their yearly income.

They refuse to engage with their customer base in just about any way, and it's no surprise that their revenue is declining (in inflation adjusted terms) just about every single year.

Ah so that explains it.

Both Warhammer 40k and Fantasy Battle are nothing more than a giant embezzlement scheme.

I play DE, can I weigh in?

My mistake, I appear to have misspelt, Eldar Taxi Service

As a fellow BA Player i feel you OP. So many years of bad books. You can play them as red marines, but thats just not satisfying. Wheres my sang guard, deathcompany and so on? Im really getting tiered of GW. Sure they wont FAQ the points, as this is the main selling point of the next book they want to shove down our throats.
I really was hyped for the last release. It was in the 'lets town down the powerlevel' time and well, I was mostly happy with what we got. I even bought the campaignbook. Then the necron dex dropped. I thought 'well they made a mistake. This cant be the way after so many codizies that were roughly in line to each other.' Well, you know where this is heading. Now we got Marines and even after Eldar I feel more butthurt with this book, because you can point for point and model for model compare them directly to each other. Did you realize that our other coloured brothers get lightingclaw and stormshield for the same points we get a single powerweapon on vanguards? And on top of that a neat special rule, so they even can reach combat more reliable. What the feth?! They took so much away from us ( scout on baalpreds, fnp bubble, etc) and now they shoving it back to really every darn codex after our last update.
Oh and as my last point I want to say that I find our furious charge a really lacking chapter tactic. Esp. compared to the new, buffed ones...

Please... at least BA's get to patch their now inferior rules with IoM ally shenanigans, and/or can simply play "Red Marines" and ally in your Death Co. stuff.

Chaos Marines on the other hand are now pretty much 100% unplayable outside of either KDK or shoving a metric crap tonne of Daemons into your list.
Want to just play actual Chaos Marines though? Oh well, sucks to be you, enjoy being the outright worst army in the game now... hell, even freaking Sisters have more of a leg-up since they're IoM!

Oh, and our model line is only less worse off than those poor, poor Sisters... at least BA's have look fething gorgeous on the table! Our stuff is ancient, lacking in detail & even our basic squad options, while having key units either missing entirely still or else Finecrap.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Please... at least BA's get to patch their now inferior rules with IoM ally shenanigans, and/or can simply play "Red Marines" and ally in your Death Co. stuff.

Chaos Marines on the other hand are now pretty much 100% unplayable outside of either KDK or shoving a metric crap tonne of Daemons into your list.
Want to just play actual Chaos Marines though? Oh well, sucks to be you, enjoy being the outright worst army in the game now... hell, even freaking Sisters have more of a leg-up since they're IoM!

Oh, and our model line is only less worse off than those poor, poor Sisters... at least BA's have look fething gorgeous on the table! Our stuff is ancient, lacking in detail & even our basic squad options, while having key units either missing entirely still or else Finecrap.

You speak true good sir. I also have a small slaneesh themed force of CSM. This army is in a horrible state.

As a DA player, our dex has been a testing bed and/or everyothermarines-1 for pretty much as long as I can remember. When the current one landed at the beginning of 6th, I also thought that they were reigning in power levels. Nope, just left us and those filthy heretics at the bottom so we could kill each other but no one else. They also sent a few others to come play with us down here *waves to orks, DE, and (insert the army you feel is UP here)*

When the 6th ed sm codex came out and was DA+3, I was a little bummed. Every other edition I bought both the DA and C:SM dexs, and decided to skip 6th C:SM and just tough it out as DA. Yes we were less than vanilla marines, but until the new crons and eldar, I never felt like I had no chance. Hell I had two local eldar players in 6th qq regularly that DA were op because of RWBK/RWCS. I can only leave to your imagination what it is like to be packing up as a DA player, not only having won against an eldar player, but having him call you cheese.

Did it suck when white scars were basically RW+, having all their fun SR and grav, and being cheaper, and better chapter tactics. It sure did. But this is the way of things. Someone has to be the first to get new things, and it isn't always vanilla marines. FA slot DP, fast vehicles, DS LRs, longfangs, storm ravens, more assaulty tac squads, most of 5th edition in general. I remember a few times going "OMFG blood angels, wtf, this game is going to be hell". BA and SW have both had a few times in the spotlight, and they will probably get it again. I'm sure if I thought back far/hard enough, I could think of a time or two when DA where more than mediocre. I admit I may suffer from turd tinted glasses (the opposite of rose tinted).

I'm not saying that as a "stfu you got you turn", just a reminder that it does go back and forth. At least with this release speed, it wont be as long a wait as it used to be. And when your time does come, just hope it isn't during one of their "reigning in" phases. I can only pray that the upcoming DA codex isn't worse than vanilla-0.5, but that may be wishful thinking.

As for the new SM codex, I really don't see it as OP or broken.
People have already written lists for the minimum needed for the free transports, and its pretty much unviable less than 1850, and even then, after paying the "tax" to get those "free" transports, you have very little left over for upgrades. I don't see how people are losing their minds about this when up to a week ago, there was a new thread every other week about how "tac marines suck hard and you should uninstall life.exe if you use them". Here is the thing, if you want to buff tacs, like everyone wants, but you can't change their stats or points, because everyone will lose their minds (see scouts), and sprinkling a few minor special rules doesn't do the trick, how do you do it? You make it so if you take a tonne of them in a formation, they get some free bonuses. You still pay the upgrades for those vehicles. Last month, if you asked someone how you make MSU tac+ transport spam work, they would have told you reducing the points wouldn't be enough since tacs(see above). Honestly, you could cheese this out a bit, but it's not nearly as bad as some current books can do. I think if they just allowed free rhinos and razorbacks, not DP, it would be pretty much perfect balance, and a lot less people would be freaking out about it, and that just speaks to the current function of drop pods.
As for the BS/WS4 on scouts, I really think they should have never been lowered to 3. Current DA scouts are more expensive and 3. I didn't even realize before this that DA paid more for scouts But the -1 save and leadership, and the lower transport and upgrade options, plus the not being tactical for the doctrine buffs, really does warrant them being cheaper than tacs, even at 4 BS/WS.
A lot of the other buffs where minor points adjustments, 5 points here and there on units everyone has cried about sucking for a long time, IE termies and VV. Even with the points drop, they still aren't great, and will still see little table time outside of casual play.
The vehicle formations are neat, but you only get it at 3 tanks, and once a tank dies (or in the vindacator's case, once one of them cannot fire) you lose the bonus. The bonuses are pretty small, and buff tanks that don't see a lot of table time.

TLDR you wanted some SM units to get buffed, OFC vanilla marines will get the buffs first. They are not broken, only a little better than they were before, not at the power level of necrons or eldar. The company formation with free transports could be strong, but not game breaking, and only at 1850+. The other changes are minor tweaks, and will probably be in the new dexes as they get updated, which at this rate at least wont be 4+ years like we had to wait before.

$5 DA will be worse than SM, maybe even below SW and BA.

 jreilly89 wrote:
$5 DA will be worse than SM, maybe even below SW and BA.

I'll raise you an additional $10 that CSM's will end up worse than DA.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
$5 DA will be worse than SM, maybe even below SW and BA.

I'll raise you an additional $10 that CSM's will end up worse than DA.

Sold! At least DA can always beat CSM.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
$5 DA will be worse than SM, maybe even below SW and BA.

I'll raise you an additional $10 that CSM's will end up worse than DA.

Sold! At least DA can always beat CSM.

I play DA, and my brother plays CSM. Sadly, we both know this is the most likely outcome. At least we have good games against each other

If there is one of my armies that despises the new Codex, it's my Mantis Warriors.

They used to be the only Chapter that could take Divination, aside Tigerius...yeah forget that lol. That was probably the top reason why you would take them (I still play them for fluff).

Kinda hoping on FW to update the Chapter tactics soon

Martel732 wrote:
The 90s called and want their codex system back. Codices should be online and updated in real time.

The irony here is I think I might have liked that 1997 blood angel mini-dex that referenced the main space marine dex for units the best

But yeah, an all digital system, regularly updated for balance just like an online PC strategy game would be AMAZING, is extremely doable with today's technology, and companies like the dropzone commander guys seem to be actually doing it.

That stated, I'm quite certain GW will never try anything like that in decades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:
I play DE, can I weigh in?

My mistake, I appear to have misspelt, Eldar Taxi Service

I can play Flesh Tearers and be admech taxi service! Then I'm still competitive! Kinda!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rhavien wrote:
As a fellow BA Player i feel you OP. So many years of bad books. You can play them as red marines, but thats just not satisfying. Wheres my sang guard, deathcompany and so on? Im really getting tiered of GW. Sure they wont FAQ the points, as this is the main selling point of the next book they want to shove down our throats.
I really was hyped for the last release. It was in the 'lets town down the powerlevel' time and well, I was mostly happy with what we got. I even bought the campaignbook. Then the necron dex dropped. I thought 'well they made a mistake. This cant be the way after so many codizies that were roughly in line to each other.' Well, you know where this is heading. Now we got Marines and even after Eldar I feel more butthurt with this book, because you can point for point and model for model compare them directly to each other. Did you realize that our other coloured brothers get lightingclaw and stormshield for the same points we get a single powerweapon on vanguards? And on top of that a neat special rule, so they even can reach combat more reliable. What the feth?! They took so much away from us ( scout on baalpreds, fnp bubble, etc) and now they shoving it back to really every darn codex after our last update.
Oh and as my last point I want to say that I find our furious charge a really lacking chapter tactic. Esp. compared to the new, buffed ones...

I know! Grimaldus has a FNP bubble!
Like, I would seriously be tempted to play red marines, stick grimaldus in a buffed land raider, or something, and buzz forward surrounded by a crazy amount of buffed assault marines.
I actually think it would work, and it would be more blood angeley than anything I can do with the current dex.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
What I really don't understand is how easy it is to write a FAQ about the numerous mistakes they make and yet they wont.

Biggest one that springs to mind is the whole Demonology debate, who can take it and who can't. The new Rulebook says anyone can take it unless expressly forbidden. And all the new codex's specifically say which powers you are allowed to take. Why not write a FAQ for each race stating if they can or can't take the damn psychic power? No? to easy?

well they probably do it for....Balance.

Or to allow you to FORGE THE NARRATIVE!

"I know space marines and daemons are MORTAL ENEMIES, and messing with daemons is heresy and corrupting to everything around it, but what better way to fight your enemies than with your enemies? So lets all SUMMON DAEMONS!" - Narrative forged so all IoM can summon daemons.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
What I really don't understand is how easy it is to write a FAQ about the numerous mistakes they make and yet they wont.

Biggest one that springs to mind is the whole Demonology debate, who can take it and who can't. The new Rulebook says anyone can take it unless expressly forbidden. And all the new codex's specifically say which powers you are allowed to take. Why not write a FAQ for each race stating if they can or can't take the damn psychic power? No? to easy?

well they probably do it for....Balance.

Or to allow you to FORGE THE NARRATIVE!

"I know space marines and daemons are MORTAL ENEMIES, and messing with daemons is heresy and corrupting to everything around it, but what better way to fight your enemies than with your enemies? So lets all SUMMON DAEMONS!" - Narrative forged so all IoM can summon daemons.

If an IOM player wants to summon daemons i would happily let them try. Needing to roll three 4+ without doubles is damn near impossible. The only one worth sacrificing your psyker for is possession. Even thats gonna take some luck


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But like i said. DA faq says you can. I havent read most of the others

Idk why people always wine and b***h about stuff like this. Im a DA fan boy. When centurions came out i wanted some for my DA so did i go to the basement and cried? NO!!! I got some centurions painted them green and said here are my DA centurions. When the new sternguard kit came out i did the same. Id suggest if you see something in the marine codex you like paint it red, or whatever your color scheme is and call it BA. Its that easy. This is a game a hobby a thing to have fun!! Not something to cry about.

sangheili wrote:
Idk why people always wine and b***h about stuff like this. Im a DA fan boy. When centurions came out i wanted some for my DA so did i go to the basement and cried? NO!!! I got some centurions painted them green and said here are my DA centurions. When the new sternguard kit came out i did the same. Id suggest if you see something in the marine codex you like paint it red, or whatever your color scheme is and call it BA. Its that easy. This is a game a hobby a thing to have fun!! Not something to cry about.

Indeed, this is how I feel. If fact, I think BA/DA have had it great for years.

You have the choice of playing either vanilla rules with whatever CT you want (by simply calling your models a codex-compliant successor), or chapter specific codex. AND, you get the cheapest sculpted bits in the game. DA have gorgeous bikes. Just compare them to vanilla bikes! And those poor blood angels? They have the best tactical squad box in the game, the best jump bits (death company), Sanguinary Guard, and a superb assault terminator box.

Not only that, but BA have some awesome formations, that still remain unique, such as the Flesh Tearer's. And you can ally your fake BA with your real BA too!

 Talys wrote:

sangheili wrote:
Idk why people always wine and b***h about stuff like this. Im a DA fan boy. When centurions came out i wanted some for my DA so did i go to the basement and cried? NO!!! I got some centurions painted them green and said here are my DA centurions. When the new sternguard kit came out i did the same. Id suggest if you see something in the marine codex you like paint it red, or whatever your color scheme is and call it BA. Its that easy. This is a game a hobby a thing to have fun!! Not something to cry about.

Indeed, this is how I feel. If fact, I think BA/DA have had it great for years.

You have the choice of playing either vanilla rules with whatever CT you want (by simply calling your models a codex-compliant successor), or chapter specific codex. AND, you get the cheapest sculpted bits in the game. DA have gorgeous bikes. Just compare them to vanilla bikes! And those poor blood angels? They have the best tactical squad box in the game, the best jump bits (death company), Sanguinary Guard, and a superb assault terminator box.

Not only that, but BA have some awesome formations, that still remain unique, such as the Flesh Tearer's. And you can ally your fake BA with your real BA too!

The problem is that this deviates from strict RAW. I know why people do it, and am personally okay with it, but I also know that this wouldn't fly at may competitions/tournaments. YMMV.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
If it makes you feel any better, I spent an inordinate amount of time waiting for the most recent Ork Codex release, I got all excited about the Orkanauts and Mek Gunz and all the jazz....only to discover my entire dex besides 1-2 things was nerfs. :(

My first army btw was BA so I feel for you

The Ork Stompa, though, is the best big thing in the game isn't 't it? Loaded with Mek Boyz, they seem nearly impossible to bring down.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The problem is that this deviates from strict RAW. I know why people do it, and am personally okay with it, but I also know that this wouldn't fly at may competitions/tournaments. YMMV.

It doesn't deviate from RAW at all. If you buy these guys:



and equip them as regular space marine tactical squad, and call it a successor chapter, how is it not a successor chapter that is codex-compliant? It could even be a successor chapter to Blood Angels, that's decided to go back to codex compliance. The only thing you've accomplished is much more intricate models for the same price that you'd pay for the boring, plain equivalent models.

Likewise, if you buy an assault terminator squad with TH/SS. Or to take a combined boxed kit -- if you take a Stormraven, the only difference between a BA one and a Codex one is the symbol (that comes with the model). Painting it red or gluing on the angel wings doesn't suddenly make it non-codex-compliant and unsuitable for codex play. Coz, what if you painted blue, and used the angel wings? (head explodes!)

Sure you can. As i wrote I already did and will do this again, but for me it doesnt feel right. I'm trying to proxy as little as possible, so what to do with the ba specific units? I could ally them in with all the disadvantages that would bring, yes. Need my tax squads, have to remember which unit has which CT (and they are all look red ) and at the end I still play Marines allied with BA and not BA as I want.
If the rules were digital and would get updated frequently that would be great. I participated in the Warzone Ressurection Kickstarter and those guys are doing exactly this. Felt amazing to be in direct contact with the rule writing guys and seeing them actually react to issues that were brought up.

@rhavien -

With BA, you don't really have that many specific units that you'd want to play, that you lose.

- Tac marines & Assault Terminator kits fit perfectly
- Death Company kit lets you build the most awesome assault marines

- Priest is a good one that you lose -- Sad panda.
- Sanguinary Guard is cool, but really pricey and is usually overkill. However, they have some awesome (usable) bits, like the banner, some torsos, weapons, etc.
- The Baal Predator? In 7e book, no loss there, LOL.
- Furiosos/Libby/DC Dreads? IGreat for fluff games, fun to paint, but that's it.
- Heroes: You'll miss Dante, but the rest of the heroes, there's no reason to play except for fluff reasons.

All the other kits are just regular SM kits anyways.

The problem is the weapon options for most of the squads are juuuuuust different enough that I'd have to re-arm a huge chunk of my blood angels to make them red marines, and I'd have to build new HQs.
At that point I might as well just start playing another chapter.
Also the idea of taking an allied detachment of red marines just to, say, gain access to a squad of centurions is annoying because then I'll have to say to my opponent,
"okay, THESE blood angels are actual blood angels and have furious charge, THESE identical looking blood angels are red marines and have chapter tactics, good luck remembering which are which!"

It's a dick move, like when someone shows up with 5 psychers in their army and no way to label which guy has what psychic power.

So these are really sub-optimal solutions.

At the end of the day I have two goals with this hobby, other than building and painting cool things
1. have fun while playing, I'm a damn adult with real life things to worry about. I play toy soldiers to relax. the game should be as simple as possible and fun

this prevents me from doing dick things like allying blood angels with red marines

2. play in the occasional local tournament, because this is a strategy game and I do like winning, and also this is how you meet fellow players and support a local gaming scene

this prevents me from doing things that aren't allowed in the rules like just going "yeah but come on, give me bs4 ws4 on my scouts"

Like, whatever, I'll live with an annoying, jacked, counter-intuitive, sub optimal book for however long it takes for them to write a new one, it's just super annoying that I have to do that so soon after doing it with the last one. It would have been nice if my rules were current for like, a year.

Martel732 wrote:I have to buy some actual space marine models or go on hiatus. I think hiatus is more likely because the Eldar are still out there.

My Eldar would have got tabled by Skitarii had I not Called It on Sunday*, so everyone has monster under their bed.

*Would it have played differently if my mate hadn't misinterpreted Relentless for Shoot and Run/Run and Shoot? Possibly...