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 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Drasius wrote:


If you can't use OOP rules, then does that also mean you can't use OOP models?

I thought about that too. Banning terminators on 25mm bases is an obvious pick but what else?

Finally painting up my Tyranids so let me list just what I have in my list that has been 'updated' and this is just in 1000pts of Tyranids:

Tyranid 'Hunter Killer' Termagant nearly half the size of a modern one. 2nd Edition Termagant, half the length. Warrior in 40mm instead of modern 50mm. Carnifex is half the length, has some weird flat base that makes it so he doesn't fall over and the new one is even on oval and not circle. 3rd Edition Walking Hive Tyrant is on some 40mm I think, not the modern 60mm. I have no idea what the new Tyrant Guard are on but my old ones are keeping their 40mm too.

My 3rd Edition and older models are still going to see the table, and on the bases they came with, even if that squad has modern models mixed in on bigger bases.

 Peregrine wrote:
Do you really not see any difference between pirating rules that are currently in print and available to buy from GW just because you want to save money, and pirating rules that are OOP and only available if you somehow manage to convince one of the very few people who own a legal copy to sell it to you?

Not to mention the sheer absurdity of having OOP rules that are still relevant in the current edition in the first place.

 Peregrine wrote:

Not under US law, because rules can't be copyrighted. GW does have copyright on the text and images used to describe the rules, but not the rules themselves.

The rules mechanics aren't covered by copyright.

The written text is.

I can't believe that this topic is still alive. (not this thread, the fact that we're still talking about web exclusive formations and copies vs originals)

If you don't want to play with someone who uses Skyhammer or 5 Knights just don't. Why do you need an excuse for it?

If you don't mind playing against Skyhammer, then use whatever you want to use to verify it, or take the person at their word, or whatever. But sheesh, Skyhammer has been talked about to death. It would be pretty hard to fake something extra and not be noticed. And once you're caught cheating so blatantly, that's it -- a lot of people will never want to play with you again, so is it worth something as dumb as that?

Also: Blood of Kittens is an excellent source to verify rules. Since they've been around for a very long time, GW most certainly knows about them and GW hasn't sent them a takedown notice, one can only assume that they're ok with it. If not explicitly so, implicitly by their inaction.

GW doesn't send takedown notices to websites/blogs that have images of rules. I suspect it's because it has no impact (or possibly a positive impact) on sales.

I just wish GW would stop this idiocy and post any rules they come out with that not in a codex in a section on their website. Its not as if they cannot copywrite an electronic printing, not as if the writing of these cost them more then half an hour of one person's time to write, and we still have to buy the miniatures if we don't already have them. Making us pay $15 for a digital page of rules is just gouging and I have just about had it with this company. I don't mind the price of the miniatures, they are extremely high quality, more so then they need to be for the game, but I am sick of exorbitant prices for minimal rules and fluff/pictures which don't make the game any more fun or interesting to play.

Honestly I'd kinda support this idea but mainly because of this sleazy limited edition rule nonsense and it's apparently Game Breaker nonsense.

But IF it's to be allowed, then copies really do need to be allowed. It's not like someone not being arsed to buy the new Dark Angels codex or Imperial Armour 2, it's literally not available to them! And this is the sort of decision that needs to be made on at least a club/tournament-wide level.

I'm all for allowing copies of rules to be used. I want people to have rules to reference and to be able to use the full breadth of the 40k universe, and quite frankly don't want to support a "pay2play" web-bundle-exclusive rules format.

I just happen to also think this particular formation (well, formations in general, but this one especially) is absurdly broken, and as such probably wouldn't play against it regardless.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm all for allowing copies of rules to be used. I want people to have rules to reference and to be able to use the full breadth of the 40k universe, and quite frankly don't want to support a "pay2play" web-bundle-exclusive rules format.

I just happen to also think this particular formation (well, formations in general, but this one especially) is absurdly broken, and as such probably wouldn't play against it regardless.

I haven't had that experience myself. Maybe it's because I can't into tactics, or that I MM spammed instead of grav-spammed, but I haven't had a game where I wiped the floor with my opponent while using the Skyhammer.

Rumbleguts wrote:
I just wish GW would stop this idiocy and post any rules they come out with that not in a codex in a section on their website. Its not as if they cannot copywrite an electronic printing, not as if the writing of these cost them more then half an hour of one person's time to write, and we still have to buy the miniatures if we don't already have them. Making us pay $15 for a digital page of rules is just gouging and I have just about had it with this company. I don't mind the price of the miniatures, they are extremely high quality, more so then they need to be for the game, but I am sick of exorbitant prices for minimal rules and fluff/pictures which don't make the game any more fun or interesting to play.

Yes, this would be a wonderful thing.

On the other hand, I've never known anyone that's had a problem with Blood of Kittens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm all for allowing copies of rules to be used. I want people to have rules to reference and to be able to use the full breadth of the 40k universe, and quite frankly don't want to support a "pay2play" web-bundle-exclusive rules format.

I just happen to also think this particular formation (well, formations in general, but this one especially) is absurdly broken, and as such probably wouldn't play against it regardless.

It's a little situational, and matchup-specific. The formation isn't as good as it looks (or at least as I thought it was), after we played it some. Don't get me wrong -- it's pretty good, and kinda cool. But it's not super duper broken, as I originally figured.

I think that Angel's Fury in a large game is actually more devastating.

They sent the rules, numbered on the back, printed on some kind of plastic paper in a black envelope. Mine is like, 187, or something.

I'd use it, printed or not, and let one use it ( like anyone I know outside the internet. ) If someone wouldn't play because the rules are printed on copy paper instead of whatever comes with GW's formation, then tough gak, we wouldn't play and I'd just play someone else.

So is the formation useable and verified as official to use in the game or only if you have the documents that contain the rule bought from the company?

So is it like MTG and you spend the money for that special card as well as the miniatures since they are all considered playing pieces?

If I can verify the rules are real, I cannot prevent their use.
I did not see anything saying you had to have the rule card to use the rule.
Maybe I am being too simple?

I get the idea the OP is stating and agree with it in theory.
GW shouldn't have made a set of rules with only 200 copies, especially considering their hardcore stance against rule pirating.

That being said, I have never, and will never, pay for a book of rules to go along with the $200+ models I have already purchased from them.

So, screw GW and as long as you have a copy of the rules for this formation with you, I'll play against it.

Makumba wrote:

 tenebre wrote:
but anyone can use it. At least amongst sane normal people anyone can.

honestly its not overpowered in normal seize game at all. We just require advanced notice if you plan to use it in our group.

define normal. Because everyone here plays 1500 and its is rather brutal against armies like IG.

Warhammer 40k doesn't work at all below 2500 IMO its just not balanced. We have found and experimented that at 3k anyone can pretty much take anything and its balanced.

 Talizvar wrote:
So is the formation useable and verified as official to use in the game or only if you have the documents that contain the rule bought from the company?

So is it like MTG and you spend the money for that special card as well as the miniatures since they are all considered playing pieces?

If I can verify the rules are real, I cannot prevent their use.
I did not see anything saying you had to have the rule card to use the rule.
Maybe I am being too simple?

Many tournaments require you to own a legal copy of the rules; if those tournaments adhere to their own rules they should only allow those that bought them to play it. This is no different then believing a person should have purchased a Codex to use it to play. Can you use an illegal photocopy or scan of either? -Yes you "can," but its unethical and illegal.

I love the amount of crying and bitching over this.

If someone told me I could not play my army because I did not have a physical official copy of my armies rules and only had a copy or digital scan, frankly that is not someone I want to play with.

It is a game, we play to have fun. Those people who are so butt hurt over the legality of this should just go play tight tournament level MTG.

It is a game, we play to have fun. Those people who are so butt hurt over the legality of this should just go play tight tournament level MTG.

If anything, then people are butt hurt about how unfun playing versus hammer is. And the fact that one can avoid that, by enforcing what every player should do aka play with offciial rules is a bonus.

 aka_mythos wrote:
This is no different then believing a person should have purchased a Codex to use it to play.

There's a huge difference between OOP rules and in-print codices. A codex is available to buy right now, and the only reason to pirate it is that you don't want to spend money on a legal copy. And, given that most tournaments are hosted by a store that has the codex you're pirating for sale on their shelf, it should be obvious why the TO wouldn't want to endorse piracy as a substitute for buying a legal copy. But with OOP rules there's no (practical) option to buy them legally anymore. Even if you want to buy them GW isn't selling them, the store hosting the tournament never had a chance to sell them, etc. Unless you're lucky enough to convince one of the few people who were able to buy legal copies to sell you theirs the only way you're ever going to get those rules is to pirate them.

Bought it vs Scanned it aside, if we pulled together 20-30 people for a tournament, and let them all pick a pet peeve to ban, do you think everyone would have a barebones captain, and two tac squads to play with?

 Drasius wrote:
It's actually very easy to "prove" if they have an actual skyhammer force, since the rules from GW come on a 2 sided piece of paper, one side with the rules, the other with a space marine and the # / 200 on the other side.

You also get an imperial thank you card. A printed scan almost certainly won't have the picture on the other side, and definately won't have the thank you note.

These were included in the package with the models when you bought it.

On the topic of should it be available to everyone? Since you can't get it anymore, then I would have no issue with people bringing a copy, though having said that, I bought one, so I don't care either way. Technically, they're still available for purchase from GW here in Australia though, and I'd still allow people to bring a copy.

If you can't use OOP rules, then does that also mean you can't use OOP models?

It's not easy to prove that your opponent doesn't have a legitimate copy of the rules. They could easily say that they didn't want to risk their rare, expensive and OOP GW paraphernalia to damage, theft etc and so they printed a copy on their $50 home printer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:
Bought it vs Scanned it aside, if we pulled together 20-30 people for a tournament, and let them all pick a pet peeve to ban, do you think everyone would have a barebones captain, and two tac squads to play with?

We'd probably have two min squads of Ork boys and a pain boss since a there are some people who dislike Space Marines for being Space Marines.

 Peregrine wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
This is no different then believing a person should have purchased a Codex to use it to play.

There's a huge difference between OOP rules and in-print codices. A codex is available to buy right now, and the only reason to pirate it is that you don't want to spend money on a legal copy. And, given that most tournaments are hosted by a store that has the codex you're pirating for sale on their shelf, it should be obvious why the TO wouldn't want to endorse piracy as a substitute for buying a legal copy. But with OOP rules there's no (practical) option to buy them legally anymore. Even if you want to buy them GW isn't selling them, the store hosting the tournament never had a chance to sell them, etc. Unless you're lucky enough to convince one of the few people who were able to buy legal copies to sell you theirs the only way you're ever going to get those rules is to pirate them.

Copyright and legal protections for an out of print work last long after its out of print. No one is entitled to access the rules. Consideration has to be given to the fact that it's a limited edition; so it was out of print when it was released and out of print by design. That actually makes it far worse that someone would produce a copy of the rules for use as it diminishes the value of legitimate copies. Those are legal grounds for GW or someone with a legitimate copy to sue for damages under copyright laws. Presumably there is some value at which someone would sell their copy of the rules and while that may be more than most people are willing to pay that's what they're worth and anything that diminishes a person from being able to get that for a legitimate copy is as unethical as theft or vandalism.

I wouldn't give GW so much credit but GW by making the rules limited edition rules could be seen as imposing a degree of balance on the meta-game in preventing from too drastically shifting in favor of rules that maybe representative of fluff but not necessarily as balanced as other rules sets.

^We're not talking about the legal issues so much as game-balance/moral/etc. issues.

 Talizvar wrote:
So is the formation useable and verified as official to use in the game or only if you have the documents that contain the rule bought from the company?

Verified by whom ?

If I can verify the rules are real, I cannot prevent their use.

Of course you can. We're talking about a game here. You're never forced to play against anything you don't want to play against.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
^We're not talking about the legal issues so much as game-balance/moral/etc. issues.

And I address the ethical issue that stems from the same place as the legal issue. I also address that their limited availability may in fact be how GW has balanced their use on a meta-level.

Anecdotal, i know, but a local GW manager has told me that they are not going to continue these formations as they do now. They may however be selling formations seperatly in the future

ConanMan wrote:

[size=18][b]
2) if "no" what on earth gives you the right to use it, or do I have to let you because you pirate all the rules now

IF THIS IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE WHAT ARE THE IMPERIAL ARMOUR BOOKS FOR

If you bought it I honestly hand on heart I would play you. But you didn't buy it so you can't use it

Damn, my copy of the rules, which was a gift by now deceased grandmother, was burned in a fire.

So I downloaded a copy.

Are you going to tell me I can't use them?

Why are these topics always a lesson in philosophy?

What I am reading here is the ONLY way to be allowed to play a formation or rule you MUST have the copy-written material on-hand to be "official"?
Now the supplements are a kind of figure or chit in the game where you must possess it to play.
So this is then advocating MTG-like limited edition releases as a pay to win competitive advantage?

Yes, I do not "have" to play anything I don't want to, but now it just seems EVERYTHING is up for negotiation.
It would be nice to have many things accepted as part of the game... I am still irritated with people thinking Foreword items are up for negotiation.

I must admit anyone who cannot be bothered to own a BRB or their codex is a bit odd but the data slates, WD rules publications, and these limited run formations stretch the ability to ever know what you are facing and is a hard job to "gotta collect them all!".

Well, I gave up in using 40k for pick-up games a while back and these things just make it worse, too bad really.
<edit> Next we would need each limited run card to field each formation, all manner of fun could be had here.

In a Tournament, I would expect legitimate, printed rules.
In a casual game, I'd play against anything. Even homebrew.

 r_squared wrote:
In a Tournament, I would expect legitimate, printed rules.
In a casual game, I'd play against anything. Even homebrew.

I agree to play a game: both opponents must agree to the rules.
The unfortunate thing is "usually" you pack only the army you intend to play.
Since everything seems to be up in the air I have to beg to have my army "accepted" for play since we all cannot agree to the rules.

Yep, glad I live in the age of social networks to hammer out an army list rule set prior to going out for 40k night at the FLGS.
GW product pains me unless I design a scenario, X-wing and Armada are filling the bill in the meantime.

 Talizvar wrote:
What I am reading here is the ONLY way to be allowed to play a formation or rule you MUST have the copy-written material on-hand to be "official"?

If your potential opponent is someone who insists on only 'official' printed material, sure.

I've seen people playing this game without even owning a codex (illegal printing or otherwise), so it seems that mileage may vary.


[qoute]... but now it just seems EVERYTHING is up for negotiation.