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I just checked the GW page, and rather than simply being "out of stock", the Skyhammer Annihilation Force is no longer even listed on the site. It would appear that it was indeed a limited edition set.
So, with that in mind, why are we still letting people field it? They will never own the official printed rules. The only vestige of its existence are screenshots on rumor websites and the 200 or so people worldwide who actually bought it. For someone who doesn't frequent these websites, it effectively no longer exists. The same goes for the IK formation of 5 knights. Web/store exclusives are one thing that can be debated, but OOP ones are quite another and official rules that no longer exist shouldn't be allowed in the game any more than my custom formations or other OOP codices/dataslates.

but anyone can use it. At least amongst sane normal people anyone can.

honestly its not overpowered in normal seize game at all. We just require advanced notice if you plan to use it in our group.

The rules, word for word, are found here along with every other formation so really the rules haven't ceased to exist, you just can't buy them.

So you probably couldn't play Skyhammer in a GW store without having bought them and have the email or however it was distributed but anywhere else is fair game.

The Imperial Knight codex has two Formations with 5 Knights. The exclusive version has fluffy rules added to it, but the vanilla version in the IK codex has the same major benefits (BS and WS 5 and access to the Relic list). So complain all you like there, but you're complaining out of ignorance.

The Skyhammer is available with a friggin image search online. Type in the name, get the image, download the file. You don't have to be in the Lizard Squad to get it, and if you want to cripple yourself by actively avoiding things because you didn't think around the issue, then so be it. Saying that others can't enjoy an aspect of the game because they think otherwise or do otherwise is ludicrous. If you are able to post to the internet, you are able to search the internet. It is an image search and the one that now sits in my scanned PDF of the Space Marine Codex is from a simple Yahoo search.

The rules exist. They will always exist as long as someone somewhere has access to them or they don't become outdated. Just because they are no longer sold doesn't mean they have poofed.

tenebre wrote:but anyone can use it. At least amongst sane normal people anyone can.

Sane normal people can use any rules they want. But accepting a pickup game with "hey, I printed these off the internet" is not sane.

Frozocrone wrote:The rules, word for word, are found here along with every other formation so really the rules haven't ceased to exist, you just can't buy them.

I'm saying it sets a bad precedent. I would compare it to citing Wikipedia in a paper: your source may or may not be reliable. In this case, we all know what Skyhammer is, but what happens when there are more of these?

SharkoutofWata wrote:but you're complaining out of ignorance.

There are several other benefits to taking the Exalted court of House Terryn, but that's not the point. The point is that you either paid a lot of money for those rules and no one else has them, or you are going off of a grainy google image result with a picture of 5 Imperial Knights on it. Neither situation is good for a tournament, much less a pickup game.

Per the blood of kittens link:
Skyhammer Annihilation Force
Requirements: 2 Assault Squad Units, 2 Devastator Squad Units

Restrictions: Each Devastator Squad must take a Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport. Each Assault Squad must be equipped with Jump Packs.

Special Rules:

Shock Deployment: All units in the Skyhammer Annihilation Force start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Instead of using the normal deployment and reserve rules for these units, you can, during deployment, choose whether this Formation will arrive during the first or second turn. The entire Skyhammer Annihilation Force automatically arrives on the turn you chose. Ignore this Formation's Drop Pods for the purposes of the Drop Pod Assault special rule.

First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike reserve, the Devastator Squads in this Formation have the Relentless and Twin-linked special rules and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.

Suppressive Fusillade: A unit targeted by this Formation's Devastator Squads in the Shooting phase must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6, regardless of how many casualties were inflicted. If the test is failed, the enemy unit does not Fall Back, but immediately Go to Ground. If the test is passed the enemy is unable to fire Overwatch for the rest of the turn.

Leave No Survivors: Assault Squads in this Formation can use their Jump Packs in both the Movement phase and the Shooting phase. If an Assault Squad from this Formation charges a unit that has Gone to Ground as the result of Suppressive Fusillade special rule, that Assault Squad can re-roll failed to Hit and to Wound rolls in the ensuing Assault phase.

Source: Datasheet: Skyhammer Annihilation Force

How long did it take you to notice that I gave the Devastators twin-linked? If you'd never seen it before, would you have? And I didn't even change Assault phase to Shooting phase under "Leave no Survivors", Blood of Kittens did that.
Not having current, verifiable rules is bad, and opens the door to both ignorance and abuse becoming a bigger factor in games.

Greyknight12 has a very strong point. Should other players have to download and print out every set of special rules GW throws out there in order to try to sell big bundles of miniatures in order to make sure an opponent isn't trying to pull a fast one?

Yes. Because our point is strong too. They are verifiable, and I don't mean Blood of Kittens. I don't trust that as a source either. A grainy scan is still a scan and you can verify it that way if you are worried about someone lying to get their win. If you're concerned about someone simply being naive about it, then yes, you have to be vigilant about knowing the rules and recognizing when one sounds wonky.

This is similar to people using Armybuilder as a rules source as well. People do it, and it's not always right. But are you also going to ban them from using a codex you don't have because you can't verify their points costs in a list? There are times, in a pick up game for instance, where you just have to relax the standards and let people play what they want to play.

In a tournament, someone on staff should have access to everything to be able to verify. I download everything I can get my hands on, even if I will never use it. Skyhammer and House Terryn are good examples. Farsight Enclaves is another. The third book of Stormclaw is another. They exist, so I downloaded them just in case I need to verify something out of them and I can guarantee I won't ever use anything from those books myself. I am worried about someone pulling a fast one on me, so I take that extra step.

Hmmm. Do I want to be in the "suppress rules and limit ways to play the game because of an imaginary boogyman who gains life-force by editing .pdf rules" camp or in the "I'll let people play the game the way they'd like to play, because they probably spent money, time, and effort to build their army the way things seem fun to them, and who am I to tell people their view of fun is wrong?" camp.

I think I'll go with the latter, and not because the latter will end up with more enjoyable games to be had by all, but because the former just seems like the most hostile, self-centered, and generally paranoid camp to live in. Expecting people to not play with current versions of the rules is like wearing Deep Woods OFF, but instead of keeping mosquitoes from biting you, it stops other players from wanting to play or become friends with you. Good luck with that.

 tenebre wrote:
but anyone can use it. At least amongst sane normal people anyone can.

honestly its not overpowered in normal seize game at all. We just require advanced notice if you plan to use it in our group.

define normal. Because everyone here plays 1500 and its is rather brutal against armies like IG.

Most of these posters are brats.. so they will rage at this hate and bitch but you're 200% right..you cannot use skyhammer without the rules.. you can't use anything in 40k without a codex in your hand.. no codex ... no using... why should skyhammer be any different.. I wouldn't turn up with a photocopy or printed out pdf scan of a codex or knock off chinese minis or whatever so why should anyone else.. I say "no" to piracy.. because it kills the hobby dead.. it is theft and piracy to use it unless you bought it..

If i didn't have imperial armour I wouldn't use hornets...

No debate.

Now cometh the hate in the face of righteousness

If it is not possible to legally acquire the rules then I think that they become an exceptional case. They are not a part of the purchasable materials any more, so should not be dropped on an opponent with the same expectation of play that a current codex would have. The onus lies on the person wishing to use exceptional rules to make sure they are acceptable to other parties.

Personally, I suppose it comes down to attitude, If an opponent was nice about it I would be a lot more accommodating than someone who acted with an air of entitlement.

What if I have a legitimate copy, kept in the back of my codex?

half a year ago I started a thread complaining about the speed and frequency of detatchments and formations, and that nobody would be able to know them all. I was ridiculed because NOBODY would be able to just make up some formation. Nobody would just buy someone elses crap and play the game with a made up rule set and be foolish enough to believe homebrew rules. Well the day this becomes all too easy is getting closer and closer, and the community FINALLY realizes this is not only possible, but likely coming soon. Some day we are going to hear about some major tournament won on the back of a misread or misconstrued rule of some wacky formation.

 Crazyterran wrote:
What if I have a legitimate copy, kept in the back of my codex?

I'd be fine playing it at least once, even with just a copy. However, drop pods are sort of my current list's worst match up (chimeras, russes and a knight) so I may not be that eager to face it a second time. As I said, it is really all about attitude. Any sense of "you have to play me" is likely to be a turn off.

greyknight12 wrote:

tenebre wrote:but anyone can use it. At least amongst sane normal people anyone can.

Sane normal people can use any rules they want. But accepting a pickup game with "hey, I printed these off the internet" is not sane.

adjective, saner, sanest.
1. free from mental derangement; having a sound, healthy mind:
a sane person.
2. having or showing reason, sound judgment, or good sense:
sane advice.
3. sound; healthy.

Here's a dictionary entry for you. Maybe next time when you're using the word you understand the meaning better. The funny thing here is that claiming that the act of printing rules to use in your games somehow makes you mentally unstable doesn't sound very reasonable either.

ConanMan wrote:Most of these posters are brats.. so they will rage at this hate and bitch but you're 200% right..you cannot use skyhammer without the rules.. you can't use anything in 40k without a codex in your hand.. no codex ... no using... why should skyhammer be any different.. I wouldn't turn up with a photocopy or printed out pdf scan of a codex or knock off chinese minis or whatever so why should anyone else.. I say "no" to piracy.. because it kills the hobby dead.. it is theft and piracy to use it unless you bought it..

If i didn't have imperial armour I wouldn't use hornets...

No debate.

Now cometh the hate in the face of righteousness

I've said this thing before and I say it again: you realistically can't prove that my copy of the rules is not authentic. The burden of proof rests on you if you make the claim and if you can't prove it you better accept the fact that people will be using this formation. I'm not sure in what form the rules came with the bundle, but one thing is certain: if you are holding a copy in your hands, someone printed it out. Would you consider it an authentic source if someone has it in their email if they didn't get a copy by mistake and GW sent it to their email afterwards? That person certainly did pay for the rules and eventually got them, not in a physical format but got them anyway. Surely printing this file to have a physical copy to show would be completely okay? I like to have a physical copy of all the source material I'm using when I'm playing a game and certainly many others do too.

And if there's some physical, laminated rulesheet sent to you with the miniatures in the bundle you're dealing with a rare item, yes? If the mentality you and some others was more widespread, then this person would have to always carry this rare sheet of which only 200 exist worldwide with them to use the rules. What if one day they lose it? Can they never again play using the rules in it? If another marine player happens to find it, can they use it because now they possess an authentic, original rules source without having originally paid anything for it? If I had such a rare item I'd certainly carry around a copy with me and not the original one.

The thing is, you're fighting windmills here. You can't expect people to carry around the original rules wherever they go and you can never be certain if a printed sheet is just a high quality copy. Most certainly you can't expect people to carry a receipt for the Skyhammer bundle with them as a proof of purchase. Nothing is forcing you to play people using the formation, even in a tournament you can just concede if your opponent's copy doesn't look hi-def enough to your eyes.

Just remember, saying that only the people who paid for the rules should be able to use such a powerful formation is supporting a pay to win-scenario.

 tenebre wrote:


honestly its not overpowered in normal seize game at all.

>_>
<_<

Except it isn't out of print. This is the internet age: there's almost certainly a free high-quality PDF file of the rules floating around somewhere.

We all know that Skyhammer is one of the only formations affected by this, so anyone who tries to make up their own formations and pass it off as legit has a rather high burden of proof.

If you can show me a physical copy of the rules, even if it's only a second- or third-hand scan of them, I will play you and accept those rules a legitimate.

Just remember, saying that only the people who paid for the rules should be able to use such a powerful formation is supporting a pay to win-scenario.

Rubbish

If you don't have a copy of the codex you don't get to play.. in every gaming club ever made.. every gaming place i've ever been to..

Questions

1) did you buy skyhammer and get the datasheet mini dex outlying the formation rules
2) if "no" what on earth gives you the right to use it, or do I have to let you because you pirate all the rules now

IF THIS IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE WHAT ARE THE IMPERIAL ARMOUR BOOKS FOR

If you bought it I honestly hand on heart I would play you. But you didn't buy it so you can't use it

Do you really not see any difference between pirating rules that are currently in print and available to buy from GW just because you want to save money, and pirating rules that are OOP and only available if you somehow manage to convince one of the very few people who own a legal copy to sell it to you?

I would insist on the same stipulation for any codex - you have to have a copy physically in your hand to use it; i would accept it displayed on the screen of a device but i wouldn't have my opponent running it from memory because i would be very uncomfortable running any units in my own army without them.

My last game against Tau Tse Tung i forgot to bring the rules for my thanatar-calix - luckily the flgs owner loaded up the rules from the FW download service and printed me off a copy there and then.

Maximum respect to ATLANTIC GAMES in stroud for that!

As I understand it, the Skyhammer was just a one click bundle for the models contained within, and didn't cost any more than buying them would have.

So how is downloading a copy of the formation rules piracy if they were distributed for free?

 Jimsolo wrote:
As I understand it, the Skyhammer was just a one click bundle for the models contained within, and didn't cost any more than buying them would have.

So how is downloading a copy of the formation rules piracy if they were distributed for free?

Reading this thread you'd almost think that it was the other way around: you pay for the rules and get the miniatures for free. You pay for the privilege to field the mighty Skyhammer! Sounds reasonable, right?

Are these rules even copyrighted? Couldn't see anything on it that suggested that they were. I guess it doesn't count as piracy if they are not.

Lammikkovalas wrote:
Just remember, saying that only the people who paid for the rules should be able to use such a powerful formation is supporting a pay to win-scenario.

Pretty much this, though some people are just conservative A-holes that can't think outside of the box...similar to only liking the National League in baseball because of the DH rule or only listening to vinyl because that's how music SHOULD be listened to. It's fine if you believe those things, but when you start pushing those beliefs on others who don't share them and tying to kill their enjoyment of baseball or music because they are willing to look past the things you can't seem to look beyond...well...shame on you grandpa.

ConanMan wrote:
If you don't have a copy of the codex you don't get to play.. in every gaming club ever made.. every gaming place i've ever been to..

Obviously untrue, considering my FLGS isn't as strict as what you're outlining.

However, if you showed up and wanted to play a game, and thought it unfair that I had a Malanthrope in my tyranid army but did not own the Imperial Armour book that it comes out of, I'd most likely concede to your delicate sensibilities and take it out of the list, as I'm all about just having a good game and not about to start off with my opponent already all butt-hurt. If we went on to have a great game, I may even look forward to playing you again, and you'd just become "that guy that is pretty strict about what models I can use" and I wouldn't think much more about it.

Could you be as magnanimous if it was the other way around? I'd like to think so, but from the tenor of your responses thus far, I just assume you'd spend the game telling me how the DH is killing baseball is and how Vinyl is the only way to truly experience "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis.

Get it, Grandpa.

It's actually very easy to "prove" if they have an actual skyhammer force, since the rules from GW come on a 2 sided piece of paper, one side with the rules, the other with a space marine and the # / 200 on the other side.

You also get an imperial thank you card. A printed scan almost certainly won't have the picture on the other side, and definately won't have the thank you note.

These were included in the package with the models when you bought it.

On the topic of should it be available to everyone? Since you can't get it anymore, then I would have no issue with people bringing a copy, though having said that, I bought one, so I don't care either way. Technically, they're still available for purchase from GW here in Australia though, and I'd still allow people to bring a copy.

If you can't use OOP rules, then does that also mean you can't use OOP models?

Rumbleguts wrote:
Greyknight12 has a very strong point. Should other players have to download and print out every set of special rules GW throws out there in order to try to sell big bundles of miniatures in order to make sure an opponent isn't trying to pull a fast one?

If you're worried about an opponent 'pulling a fast one'... yes, frankly, it's up to you to keep up with the rules.

However, if you're playing pick-up games against unfamiliar opponents, you are always free to refuse a game, or ask them to use a different list. There is no obligation to play against someone who is using something that you don't want to play against.

 Trickstick wrote:
Are these rules even copyrighted? Couldn't see anything on it that suggested that they were. I guess it doesn't count as piracy if they are not.

Copyright isn't something that is applied through a manual process. GW wrote those rules, so they own the copyright on them. That happens regardless of whether or not there is a copyright symbol or statement on there (although such things make enforcement easier), whether or not they charge people for those rules, and whether or not they are still in print.

 Drasius wrote:


If you can't use OOP rules, then does that also mean you can't use OOP models?

I thought about that too. Banning terminators on 25mm bases is an obvious pick but what else?

OOP rules become a problem when the base rules they were predicated on change. That's where I refuse to play against them anymore.

If, say, Jump Packs get a buff with a new edition, or the points cost of one of the composing units changed, I wild consider those rules defunct, just as I consider Lyanden and Raukaan supplements defunct.

the_scotsman wrote:
OOP rules become a problem when the base rules they were predicated on change. That's where I refuse to play against them anymore.

If, say, Jump Packs get a buff with a new edition, or the points cost of one of the composing units changed, I wild consider those rules defunct, just as I consider Lyanden and Raukaan supplements defunct.

The Iyanden supplement is indeed out of date, Raukaan is not.

GW website wrote:Please note that some content ­– the Cities of Death and Planetstrike stratagems – was designed for an older edition of Warhammer 40,000 and has been included for players who still wish to use it. The rest of the rules are fully compatible with the 2015 edition of Codex: Space Marines, and the history of Clan Raukaan remains essential reading for all sons of the Gorgon.

 insaniak wrote:
Copyright isn't something that is applied through a manual process. GW wrote those rules, so they own the copyright on them. That happens regardless of whether or not there is a copyright symbol or statement on there (although such things make enforcement easier), whether or not they charge people for those rules, and whether or not they are still in print.

Not under US law, because rules can't be copyrighted. GW does have copyright on the text and images used to describe the rules, but not the rules themselves.