What is this "30K" thing people are talking about?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Grey Templar**

Killsmith wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
30K is essentially just a more balanced 40K. I've never really understood why people call it a Marine-fest considering there are two explicitly and fully fleshed out non-marine armies built into the game, with daemons also playing a role.

40K has like a dozen factions and it's still a marine-fest.

So if I understand correctly, the game is still just 40K but with different army lists? And the appeal other than fluff and models is that the smaller number of factions means better playtesting and balance?

Do players of this tend to prefer larger or smaller games? I think 40K players have been putting too much stuff on the table recently.

30k is designed to be played with very large armies. The squads are also larger too. The basic squad can be 20 dudes instead of 10.

While it has good balance with itself, the lists are not balanced against regular 40k armies, having a slight advantage over them in point costs.

**Nevelon**

kronk wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:

Looks interesting.
What would be the starting point to get into 30k ?

These two books:

The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List. This contains the basic units, army list, and rules for Legion Space Marines.

The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes: Isstvan Campaign Legions. This book contains the Legion specific rules, special characters, and special units available to the 8 legions from books 1-3.

From another thread:

Here is a little run down (I has all the books!).

1. This book has all of the basic Horus Heresy units for Legion Space Marines: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Legiones-Astartes-Crusade-Army-List
2. This book has all of the Legion Specific Rules, Special Characters, and Units from books 1-3, the Istivaan Legions. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Legiones-Astartes-Isstvan-Campaign-Legions Included in the book are specific rules, units and special characters - including the Mighty Primarchs - for the Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Imperial Fists and Raven Guard.

Books 1-5 contain a lot of story, Legion specific fluff, and campaign information that you will not find in the above books. Scattered amongst these books are mechanicum units. They have not compiled them yet, which is annoying to Mechanicum players. I use the above books much mo

3. Book 1: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Book-One-Betrayal Has the same list from #1 above. Also detailed are the histories of the four Legions who took part: the Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard and an extensive campaign system.
4. Book 2: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Book-Two-Massacre Also detailed are the histories of the four legions that took part: The Iron Hands, Salamanders, Night Lords and Word Bearers
5. Book 3: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Book-Three-Extermination Also featured are the background and game rules for the four Legions covered in this book: the Alpha Legion, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and Iron Warriors, and a Mechanicum army list, plus new campaigns and vehicles.
6. Book 4: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Book-Four-Conquest The Knights and IG in 30k book. this book contains details of the Solar Auxilia of the Imperial Army and the histories of four Knight Households, as well as two entirely new army lists. The Questoris Knight Crusade Army list enables you to field a full Household of towering Knights armed with devastating weapons of mass destruction, whilst the Solar Auxilia Crusade Army list brings the elite of the Imperial Army to your battlefield.
7. Book 5: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/the-horus-heresy-book-five-tempest Ultramarines, Word Bearers Update, IG and Renegade IG List (more options, I think), more mechanicum stuff.

Hopefully after book 6, they will release another Summary book for the new legions + IG, and a summary book for the Mechanicum and Knights, just like they did after book 3.

So if I wanted to start Ultramarines in 30k, I’d need the first two books and then book 5? Or does Tempest contain everything I need for a UM list? And what are the odds I’d need to get more books later for more units? It looks like if I played Word Bearers I’d have been fine with just the core two + Massacre, until Tempest dropped, then I’d want another book. While I don’t mind buying a book now and again, I’d rather not sign up for a slippery slope of maintaining another codex/rule set. Because buying all the books is not in the cards finically.

**jasper76**

Eventually, I'm sure they are going to come out with a second Legion red-book that will contain Ultramarines (and all other Marine Legions not included in Books I-III).

But you'll probably need to wait a while for that to come out.

I don't know if Book V has the Legion Marines wargear list, hopefully someone who does will answer your question. If it does not, you could buy Book V and then buy the Crusade Army List redbook.

But I know exactly what you mean.

**kronk**

Nevelon wrote:
kronk wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:

Looks interesting.
What would be the starting point to get into 30k ?

These two books:

The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List. This contains the basic units, army list, and rules for Legion Space Marines.

The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes: Isstvan Campaign Legions. This book contains the Legion specific rules, special characters, and special units available to the 8 legions from books 1-3.

From another thread:

Here is a little run down (I has all the books!).

1. This book has all of the basic Horus Heresy units for Legion Space Marines: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Legiones-Astartes-Crusade-Army-List
2. This book has all of the Legion Specific Rules, Special Characters, and Units from books 1-3, the Istivaan Legions. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Legiones-Astartes-Isstvan-Campaign-Legions Included in the book are specific rules, units and special characters - including the Mighty Primarchs - for the Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Imperial Fists and Raven Guard.

Books 1-5 contain a lot of story, Legion specific fluff, and campaign information that you will not find in the above books. Scattered amongst these books are mechanicum units. They have not compiled them yet, which is annoying to Mechanicum players. I use the above books much mo

3. Book 1: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Book-One-Betrayal Has the same list from #1 above. Also detailed are the histories of the four Legions who took part: the Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard and an extensive campaign system.
4. Book 2: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Book-Two-Massacre Also detailed are the histories of the four legions that took part: The Iron Hands, Salamanders, Night Lords and Word Bearers
5. Book 3: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Book-Three-Extermination Also featured are the background and game rules for the four Legions covered in this book: the Alpha Legion, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and Iron Warriors, and a Mechanicum army list, plus new campaigns and vehicles.
6. Book 4: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Book-Four-Conquest The Knights and IG in 30k book. this book contains details of the Solar Auxilia of the Imperial Army and the histories of four Knight Households, as well as two entirely new army lists. The Questoris Knight Crusade Army list enables you to field a full Household of towering Knights armed with devastating weapons of mass destruction, whilst the Solar Auxilia Crusade Army list brings the elite of the Imperial Army to your battlefield.
7. Book 5: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/the-horus-heresy-book-five-tempest Ultramarines, Word Bearers Update, IG and Renegade IG List (more options, I think), more mechanicum stuff.

Hopefully after book 6, they will release another Summary book for the new legions + IG, and a summary book for the Mechanicum and Knights, just like they did after book 3.

So if I wanted to start Ultramarines in 30k, I’d need the first two books and then book 5? Or does Tempest contain everything I need for a UM list? And what are the odds I’d need to get more books later for more units? It looks like if I played Word Bearers I’d have been fine with just the core two + Massacre, until Tempest dropped, then I’d want another book. While I don’t mind buying a book now and again, I’d rather not sign up for a slippery slope of maintaining another codex/rule set. Because buying all the books is not in the cards finically.

For UltraMarines, the two red books and Book 5 is fine.

For Word Bearers, the same. They did get an additional unit in book 5, but you could play with just the 2 red books and have plenty of special units, characters, and rules for the Word Bearers.

In all honestly, if you just wanted to play a Legion, all you really need is this book: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Legiones-Astartes-Crusade-Army-List

**Tannhauser42**

Grey Templar wrote:

While it has good balance with itself, the lists are not balanced against regular 40k armies, having a slight advantage over them in point costs.

You're right, as many 40K armies do have an advantage in points over 30K.

**Col. Dash**

The points advantage depends greatly as does who you are fighting. An elder army will murder a 30k army, while a 30k army will murder an ork army. At low points 30k armies are at a huge disadvantage. All of the troop types are expensive. Your basic squad of tacticals is 10 guys and that's 10 dudes with bolters only. You can add a combi bolter and other fun stuff to the sergeant, but nothing else to the squad. So in fact you are over paying for those 10 guys who don't even have ATSKNF. You can buy a banner which gives them a leadership reroll. Then you have the option to buy 10 more guys with bolters, and here is where you get some savings in points. 250 points for 20 marines with bolters. I think its a couple points each to add close combat weapons. A bare boned 20 man assault squad is 450 points. Frills add to this considerably. The cheapest unit in the list is 100 points and that's for 5 guys each with flamers and they are troops but not compulsory troops. This means you are forced to take 2 of any combo of Breachers(over priced duded with shields), tacticals, or assault squads before you add anything else to the army. Yes 500 point games are rough.

Up to 2k any competitive 40k army has an advantage over a 30k legion. From 2k-2.5k its pretty even. After 2.5k you can start adding in fun toys without a lot of sacrifice and Legion lists start coming into their own.

Important in the current game which also puts Legions at a disadvantage, no super heavies until you hit 2k and even then they cant be more than 25% of the army. The basic books(I don't know if 4 or 5 changed this)only have 2 D weapons. The Thunderhawk and I forget what the other one is but its also on a superheavy.

**Vector Strike**

I'm just waiting for the Prospero book to start my Thousand Sons.

**Captyn_Bob**

Vector Strike wrote:
I'm just waiting for the Prospero book to start my Thousand Sons.

And I can't wait to finish mine.

Is anyone else having trouble accessing the Heresy30k forum?

**Melissia**

Bookwrack wrote:
Are you actually going to bother to participate in the thread

I did participate in it. It's not my fault that people are too irrational to accept that not everyone likes the same things they do, and thus had to make a big deal out of me stating my opinion. And you're hardly any better.

**Erik_Morkai**

I have been eyeing 30K since it came out and followed it. So far I have resisted but...resistance is futile. I will eventually succomb...Still hesitating between a few legions but so far Alpha Legion is in the lead.

**DeLong**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
Killsmith wrote:
I guess it's some kind of forge world-only version of 40k where you can only play as Space Marines? I'd hate to say that it sounds like it was invented to isolate the ludicrously wealthy from the normal people who can't afford to spend $3000 on a single army, but that really is my first impression.

Sorry if I've got the wrong idea. Is it any different from/better than 40k in terms of rules? I'd love to try it out with proxies but I get the feeling people who invest in all-forgeworld armies aren't gonna be too keen on playing a proxy army. Are people really paying $500 just for the basic rulebooks?

As if GW armies are cheap, too.

I will offer the benefit of the doubt and assume you're asking honestly. No, you don't need $500 in rulebooks. No, you don't need to spend $3000 on an army. Also, people who invest in Forgeworld armies are usually quite keen on just being able to play with them, against proxies or not, because we have to deal with the constant anti-FW stigma that continues to linger after all these years, and that tends to limit our ability to play at times. I hadn't started an army until recently but have always purchased the characters and painted them.

The army lists are more balanced because Forgeworld actually puts some thought into them, and they aren't designed by a committee where all the members were kept in separate rooms and thus unable to see what the others were doing (which is the GW way).

I play DKoK and have always faced anti forge world players some wouldn't even let me play them with the free pdf which is not that great. As for 30k I have recently started an army and the rules are great.

**djphranq**

Melissia wrote:
It's horus heresy, and frankly it was better when there were fewer details.

This is how I feel with the HH as well. There was a certain mystique to it when it was just pieces of info here and there spread out amidst game material. Now it seems like old bad Star Wars EU... either spread too thin with not much substance... or with spotty 'continuity'...

**Formosa**

djphranq wrote:
Melissia wrote:
It's horus heresy, and frankly it was better when there were fewer details.

This is how I feel with the HH as well. There was a certain mystique to it when it was just pieces of info here and there spread out amidst game material. Now it seems like old bad Star Wars EU... either spread too thin with not much substance... or with spotty 'continuity'...

Fair enough, it's not either of your cup of tea.

I love it though, I like that they are filling jn the gaps, and frankly while the old fluff was ok, at best, the new novels are much better, yes it loses some of the mystical story telling, but I don't mind.

**DorianGray**

Killsmith wrote:
I guess it's some kind of forge world-only version of 40k where you can only play as Space Marines? I'd hate to say that it sounds like it was invented to isolate the ludicrously wealthy from the normal people who can't afford to spend $3000 on a single army, but that really is my first impression.

Sorry if I've got the wrong idea. Is it any different from/better than 40k in terms of rules? I'd love to try it out with proxies but I get the feeling people who invest in all-forgeworld armies aren't gonna be too keen on playing a proxy army. Are people really paying $500 just for the basic rulebooks?

The big turn off is that its only space marines vs space marines. Like we don't already have too much of that to begin with.

**jasper76**

DorianGray wrote:
Killsmith wrote:
I guess it's some kind of forge world-only version of 40k where you can only play as Space Marines? I'd hate to say that it sounds like it was invented to isolate the ludicrously wealthy from the normal people who can't afford to spend $3000 on a single army, but that really is my first impression.

Sorry if I've got the wrong idea. Is it any different from/better than 40k in terms of rules? I'd love to try it out with proxies but I get the feeling people who invest in all-forgeworld armies aren't gonna be too keen on playing a proxy army. Are people really paying $500 just for the basic rulebooks?

The big turn off is that its only space marines vs space marines. Like we don't already have too much of that to begin with.

This is just not true. There are Space Marines, there are a ton of rules for Adeptus Mechanicus, there are rules for Solar Auxilia, and rules for Knights.

**Eldarain**

And Militia/Warp Cults.

**jasper76**

Also, at the very least, 40k Orks and various Eldar codices could be used with little heartburn, as those Xenos were known at the time. And a Tomb World reawakens early, or a Hivefleet hits the Milky Way early, the records are lost in time, etc.

It's only limited to Marine on Marine if you want it to be.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also forgot to mention that the 40k Chaos Daemon codex is used in 30k...iirc, Word Bearers have HQs that allow them to ally with Chaos Daemons.

And if the 40k Chaos Daemons is available as an ally to Word Bearers, it stands to reason that there should be no problem using the 40k Chaos Daemon codex as a standalone vs. a 30k army.

**Polonius**

What I think would be really cool would be models/rules for non-imperial humans that resist the great crusades.

**Captyn_Bob**

jasper76 wrote:

Also forgot to mention that the 40k Chaos Daemon codex is used in 30k...iirc, Word Bearers have HQs that allow them to ally with Chaos Daemons.

And if the 40k Chaos Daemons is available as an ally to Word Bearers, it stands to reason that there should be no problem using the 40k Chaos Daemon codex as a standalone vs. a 30k army.

Yep. There are also Daemon HQ with special rules for 30k.

**Eldarain**

Polonius wrote:
What I think would be really cool would be models/rules for non-imperial humans that resist the great crusades.

The Militia/Warp Cults list in Book 5 is incredibly flexible for building your force into something that fits whatever background you want. Reading through it really gets the imagination going.

**kronk**

jasper76 wrote:
and rules for Knights.

The Knights list and options are what the Knights Codex should have been. They should just slap a Codex: Knight on that section and call it a day!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldarain wrote:
Polonius wrote:
What I think would be really cool would be models/rules for non-imperial humans that resist the great crusades.

The Militia/Warp Cults list in Book 5 is incredibly flexible for building your force into something that fits whatever background you want. Reading through it really gets the imagination going.

This here. The Imperialis Militia & Cults army list allows a great deal of customization with the background that also affects how they play. The Force Commander lets you choose 2 Provenances that more or less tell the story of where your humans and almost humans came from. Maybe they were in some kind of bastion of safety during the dark times and kept up their technology (better saves or weapons), maybe they are worshipers of some dark cult, and so on.

The list itself is what you'd expect from IG dudes without orders. The tanks are still in there, and you can make 20-man blob squads. I find the transport options to be a let down, though. Just toss in a Chimera or IG Rhino, why don't you?

**Vash108**

Also depending on what point levels you play at 30k can seriously be underpowered vs 40k armies.

**Formosa**

Let's see, the following armies are quite compatible with 30k, not balanced but fit quite nicely into it.

Chaos deamons.
Renegades and heretics (or use book 5 to make them)
Imperial guard (until imperial army are available)
Eldar, bar inyandan, no Tyranids.
Tyranids to represent the various grisly aliens about at the time, or a vanguard fleet.
Orks (duh!)
Tau (highly advanced humans around at the time. Or use book 5, or just use them as an advanced xenos race)
Dark eldar (yep, they attacked Vulcan after all)

No grey knights
No chaos or normal space marines

That's if you want to go with fluff, otherwise, just play a game, who cares lol.

Off the top of my head you also have
Legions: almost unlimited variations
Solar auxilia: bloody nasty shooting army
4 mechanicum lists, lots of variation.
Book 5 human forces: about 7/8 distinct army types depending on the "world" you recruit from, lots of variation.
Chaos deamons: 2 unique hq's, and deamons are actually very nasty in 30k, fear and sweeping are very nasty.

**Zaku212**

Formosa wrote:
Let's see, the following armies are quite compatible with 30k, not balanced but fit quite nicely into it.
4 mechanicum lists, lots of variation.

What are actually the distinctions between these 4? I've seen some different names and some flavour but nothing striking.

**Vash108**

Zaku212 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Let's see, the following armies are quite compatible with 30k, not balanced but fit quite nicely into it.
4 mechanicum lists, lots of variation.

What are actually the distinctions between these 4? I've seen some different names and some flavour but nothing striking.

Check here http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Mechanicum_(30k)

**Zaku212**

Vash108 wrote:
Zaku212 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Let's see, the following armies are quite compatible with 30k, not balanced but fit quite nicely into it.
4 mechanicum lists, lots of variation.

What are actually the distinctions between these 4? I've seen some different names and some flavour but nothing striking.

Check here http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Mechanicum_(30k)

It's kinda looking like the Cyber's are the only ones who are fully padded out with their models so far then?

**Formosa**

Zaku212 wrote:
Vash108 wrote:
Zaku212 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Let's see, the following armies are quite compatible with 30k, not balanced but fit quite nicely into it.
4 mechanicum lists, lots of variation.

What are actually the distinctions between these 4? I've seen some different names and some flavour but nothing striking.

Check here http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Mechanicum_(30k)

It's kinda looking like the Cyber's are the only ones who are fully padded out with their models so far then?

1st: lots of cheap fodder backed up with a few large machines
2: lots of medium infantry backed up by heavy machines and a few knights.
3: loads of heavy armoured high toughness creatures
4: fully armoured up force in triaros, venators, mechanicum land raiders etc.

All possible and all distinctly different, add in cyberthurgy, allies etc. And it gets even more diverse.

Thankfully 30k isn't anywhere near as cookie cutter as 40k.

**SirDonlad**

Vash108 wrote:
Zaku212 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Let's see, the following armies are quite compatible with 30k, not balanced but fit quite nicely into it.
4 mechanicum lists, lots of variation.

What are actually the distinctions between these 4? I've seen some different names and some flavour but nothing striking.

Check here http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Mechanicum_(30k)

NO DO NOT CHECK THERE - i was trying to ensure accuracy of the mechanicum stuff (i have every book right here) and some absolute donkey-cave kept changing what i did back to his incorrect rubbish - after messaging him personally he called me "a know-it-all rules lawyering c***" and that was when i realized that 1d4chan is not a credible source because of people like that inserting their own house rules into it so they can lie to people that they play against merely by referencing 4chan.
The particular issue stems from there being only one 'independent character' HQ choice in the taghmata list and none at all available to the ordo reductor - the article goes on to give 'advice' and 'tactical suggestions' based around mixing the HQ choices with squads to trade rules and abilities when you cannot do that because of the initial issue.
The same jackass was saying to put a magos in a squad of thanatars to gain their T8 stat!!

**Wonderwolf**

I'd agree that "30K" is an unfortunate misnomer. It's not "30K", it's "the Horus Heresy" with the strong focus on Space Marines it implies.

Would love for Forge World (or GW for that matter) to similarly explore other wars or time periods with the same dedication. Maybe a "32K" for Orks, if those Beast Arises books from BL work out. Maybe a "War in the Heavens" for pre-Fall Eldar vs. Necrons. Maybe a "45K" with super-evolved Tyranids vs. super-advanced Tau for an all-Tentacle-vs-Mech love-fest.

But "Horus Heresy" is the Space Marines' show. That's the whole point.

**SirDonlad**

Technically speaking it's "the age of darkness" and the legion marine list presented represents the forces used during the great crusade - as the horus heresy went on (only nine years mind) more and more assets extraneous to the crusade get roped into the fighting - the solar auxillia represent the hardened garrisson forces left behined after the great crusade has brought a system into compliance - the ordo reductor are supposed to only appear when the great crusade can't level a structure or species and are only involved on Isstvan3 by accident.

The book one legion list says (page 183) "the following section details rules for playing games of warhammer 40,000 set against the background of the dark and terrible wars of the horus heresy, along with a full army list for the space marine legions as they were during the dying days of the great crusade."

So, sorry, but calling it 'the horus heresy' isn't really accurate as the HH starts in 004M31 lasting nine years, and the great crusade started around 798M30 and lasts around 200 years