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 Kriswall wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
Sorry to necro this thread, but relevant info come to light; "Remove from play" isn't a 'sacred' phrase in AoS.
Knight-Vexillor with pennant of the storm bringer;
"...pick a STORMCAST ETERNAL unit in your army and remove it from play, then set it up anywhere more than 3" from the enemy."
This would imply that "remove from play" simply means "take off the board" rather than "put it back in your figure case", so it doesn't necessarily mean these models are unavailable to be re-summoned.

I don't think it implies anything of the sort. The rule above tells you to remove something from play and then return it to play. Without the return it to play bit, the models would still have been removed from play... i.e., no longer used as part of the game. Without a specific rule to return those models to play, they stay removed.

You must work for GW and want people to spend endless amounts of $ on units to be able to summon them. Like posts previous to mine explained. You are not "re summoning" the same unit, you are just using them as representations (different unit, same models). How would the game be different for you if I brought lets say 100 Wood Elves hounds and kept them in reserve or 10 Wood Elves Hounds. Once the 10 are dead I can reuse them as a representation or if I had my 100, I wouldn't have to reuse the ones that are were no longer in play, I could just use ones that are painted differentely? lol?

The way I look at it your logic doesnt make sense, you just sound like someone qq'ing that runs an army with no summoning abilities, or like I said, someone that works at GW that wants everyone to throw their $ into the game.

It needs to be clarified by gw rather than the vague wording . Oh well I'll summon armies on armies

LucidNinja wrote:
Yeah I'm pretty sure I'd keep my army in my case then. Also summoning doesn't come from reserves and slain models are just removed. I see no rule saying you can't re use slayed models...

This is a permissive rule set. You need to have a rule saying you CAN do something. The rules also don't say I can't punch you and steal your wallet. The rules DO say that you show up with the models you might want to use, that you deploy some and that you leave the rest in reserves. Reserves is literally the ONLY place summoned models CAN come from. Slain models are removed from play. Without wording saying that they can be returned to play, I'm forced to agree that they're no longer an active part of the game.

That's how I read it as well. Otherwise I could cycle the 3 bloodthirsters and skarbrand where they are ALWAYS on the table and that alone seems unbalanced

 Kriswall wrote:

LucidNinja wrote:
Yeah I'm pretty sure I'd keep my army in my case then. Also summoning doesn't come from reserves and slain models are just removed. I see no rule saying you can't re use slayed models...

This is a permissive rule set. You need to have a rule saying you CAN do something. The rules also don't say I can't punch you and steal your wallet. The rules DO say that you show up with the models you might want to use, that you deploy some and that you leave the rest in reserves. Reserves is literally the ONLY place summoned models CAN come from. Slain models are removed from play. Without wording saying that they can be returned to play, I'm forced to agree that they're no longer an active part of the game.

I dont know how many times people need to say it.... using the same models as a representative... not actually the same models... in order to save money... not sure how much clearer people can be.

City/township laws say you can't punch people in the face and take their wallet. Their laws are above GW rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

herpetitus wrote:
That's how I read it as well. Otherwise I could cycle the 3 bloodthirsters and skarbrand where they are ALWAYS on the table and that alone seems unbalanced

Depending what army you play against. When I played my Wood Elves vs Ogres, I had to constantly try and spawn Hounds because any other unit I could use besides the Treeman, would just get steam rolled. I would just spawn hounds and dryads to tie them up, from getting to my archers, and have the treeman take out a group at a time.


Since I only have 5 hounds, I would summon them, and once they all die, I would try and summon them again. I would only "re-summon" them if every piece in the unit was dead.

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
I dont know how many times people need to say it.... using the same models as a representative... not actually the same models... in order to save money... not sure how much clearer people can be.

Then that is your house rule, and not what the actual rule says.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
I dont know how many times people need to say it.... using the same models as a representative... not actually the same models... in order to save money... not sure how much clearer people can be.

Then that is your house rule, and not what the actual rule says.

I think its 80% of peoples house rule haha. Even my lgs lets that fly. If you want to pour loads of cash for minatures that may not even come out onto the bf be my guest, someone needs to keep GW in business.

Isn't AoS 90% house rules? The last part of the rules says discuss any disagreements...
On a silly note you can summon and play less than a units size.
"If the model is fiellded as part of a unit, then the description will say how many models the unit should have (if you don’t have enough models to ?eld a unit, you can still ?eld one unit with as many models as you have available)."
So I can summon the 2 skeletons you killed last turn as a separate unit hahaha

 Ghaz wrote:

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
I dont know how many times people need to say it.... using the same models as a representative... not actually the same models... in order to save money... not sure how much clearer people can be.

Then that is your house rule, and not what the actual rule says.

It isn't a house rule. Nowhere in the rules does it say that removed units can't be reused for summoning. If my sorcerer wants to summon, and I have the models to allow this, it doesn't matter at all if they have been on the table previously, I can summon them. You cannot inflict your issues with summoning on other players and expect them to spend time and money in order to have 'fresh' models that are entirely unnecessary. If you are struggling with summoning, don't destroy units that you know will be recycled, reduce monsters to minimal usage, target their casters, or get in the summoning game yourself.

 JamesY wrote:
It isn't a house rule. Nowhere in the rules does it say that removed units can't be reused for summoning.

Where do the rules say that I can't remove all of my opponent's models from the board and claim that I win automatically? They don't. The rules tell us what we can do. So where do the rules say that removed units can be reused for summoning?

Where does it say they can't? Where does it say that summoned units even come from reserves? All it says is that dead models are removed from play, it doesn't state anything else. Summoning rules only state how many models are placed and any rules regarding action restrictions.

Regarding removing opponents models, great contribution to the discussion.

I allow summoning dead models.

The way I think about it, if my opponent summoned 3 terrorgiests one by one (after each one died). It makes ZERO difference to me if they are unique models or the same model recycled. So, whatever, summon away.

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
I dont know how many times people need to say it.... using the same models as a representative... not actually the same models... in order to save money... not sure how much clearer people can be.

Then that is your house rule, and not what the actual rule says.

I think its 80% of peoples house rule haha. Even my lgs lets that fly. If you want to pour loads of cash for minatures that may not even come out onto the bf be my guest, someone needs to keep GW in business.

I agree that a lot of people use this house rule. This is fine. However, it has the unfortunate side effect of making Summoning game alteringly more powerful. You can't change the rules and then complain about summoning being too powerful.

In a "pure" game of Age of Sigmar, Summoning isn't that big of a deal because you only have models in Reserves to choose from when you summon (if you disagree, tell me where else you Summon from) and slain models are removed from play, with no wording anywhere telling us to return them to play (or Reserves). Keep in mind that Reserves equates to 'models you brought with you but chose not to deploy'. If you brought 5 units of Skeleton Archers and deployed 0, you are able to Summon 5 units during the course of the game. You can't Summon a 6th because you only showed up with 5. House ruling this to say that you can re-Summon slain units and of course Summoning becomes more powerful. The entire deployment based balancing mechanism immediately falls apart as it becomes impossible to tell what your opponent brought with them and prevents you from making an informed decision on what to deploy.

Kriswall I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with this BUT this does make the game seem like who ever has the most model will win... GW ultimate sales pitch?

Kriswall- in all fairness, you are adding a bunch of text that isn't there and is every bit as much of a house rule as you claim summoning models previously removed from play is.

To answer your question of where else do you summon from: the answer is models not on the table. Removed from play is not defined and doesn't make them any less your models or units by any rule. "Reserves" is not a term in the rules- models are kept in reserve, which by plain reading simply means they aren't in play, unless fate lends a hand (whatever that means).

In effect, models removed from play may very well go back into reserves (since they are not deployed but are still part of your army) "until fate lends a hand". Or maybe they don't. The rules don't really say.

So it seems like "no single solution presents itself"- time for a dice off!

 jmurph wrote:
Kriswall- in all fairness, you are adding a bunch of text that isn't there and is every bit as much of a house rule as you claim summoning models previously removed from play is.

To answer your question of where else do you summon from: the answer is models not on the table. Removed from play is not defined and doesn't make them any less your models or units by any rule. "Reserves" is not a term in the rules- models are kept in reserve, which by plain reading simply means they aren't in play, unless fate lends a hand (whatever that means).

In effect, models removed from play may very well go back into reserves (since they are not deployed but are still part of your army) "until fate lends a hand". Or maybe they don't. The rules don't really say.

So it seems like "no single solution presents itself"- time for a dice off!

Absolutely, 100% agreed.

 jmurph wrote:
Kriswall- in all fairness, you are adding a bunch of text that isn't there and is every bit as much of a house rule as you claim summoning models previously removed from play is.

To answer your question of where else do you summon from: the answer is models not on the table. Removed from play is not defined and doesn't make them any less your models or units by any rule. "Reserves" is not a term in the rules- models are kept in reserve, which by plain reading simply means they aren't in play, unless fate lends a hand (whatever that means).

In effect, models removed from play may very well go back into reserves (since they are not deployed but are still part of your army) "until fate lends a hand". Or maybe they don't. The rules don't really say.

So it seems like "no single solution presents itself"- time for a dice off!

From the rules...

"In order to play, you must first muster your army from the miniatures in your collection."

First things first. You gather together all of the models and units you think you might want to play with today and put them in a big pile (or in a case, or on a table, or on shelves, or whatever). The important thing to note is that during this step you have to muster your army. You can't add extra models later that you didn't muster or you'd be breaking the rules.

"The players then alternate setting up units..."

We use this bunch of models as our pool of models when we start deploying.

"You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space."

Once we're done deploying...

"Any remaining units are held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand."

...everything that we mustered, but didn't deploy is sitting in reserve. There are literally no options other than in play on the table or in reserve, barring specialty rules on certain Warscrolls. Let me repeat. Every model you decided that you might want to play with is either in play or in reserve. There is literally nowhere else defined at this point. At this stage, the only available models for summoning must be in reserve as there is nowhere else.

"Once the number of wounds suffered by a model during the battle equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain. Place the slain model to one side - it is removed from play."

Now we have a new location. When a model is slain, we are not told to return it to reserves... we are instead told to place the slain model to one side and that it is removed from play. Now, go back and read the first quote. "To play..." We aren't told to remove the models from the table. We're told to remove them from play. My contention is that all of the steps of the game, from mustering your army to moving through the turns, is considered play. Removing a model from play means that it is no longer to be used in this game.

If you disagree, or interpret the rules, that's fine... but to be clear, I do not consider what I'm saying to be a house rule. I am using the text as written to guide my understanding of summoning.

If you use my interpretation, summoning isn't a big deal and the built in deployment balancing system works. If you use a different interpretation wherein you can just keep adding models that weren't mustered as part of your army or where you can keep returning models that have been removed from play back to play, the balancing system almost immediately falls apart. Common sense dictates that the writers didn't want the system to fall apart. Common sense says my reading of the rules is more likely correct.

That's all well and good Kriswall, like you said it's your interpretation of the rules and falls onto what exactly is "in play" which as you said, isn't clearly defined in the rules. I wouldn't say models in reserve are in play.

But anyway, if they recycle units or have unique units, what's the difference to you as an opponent? You will likely say so that you can effectively counter deploy. What stops you from effectively counter deploying when units can be recycled? You counter deploy with that in mind.

@Kriswall slain zombies and skeletons can be returned to play, so there is a precedent for this to happen. Now consider plaguebearers. D6 models added to the unit, on a roll of 1 on a battleshock test. As battleshock tests occur by having models removed, being unable to reuse models (without the rule stating slain) would mean that the removed models that triggered the action couldn't be re-deployed. If I start with all my plaguebearers in the table because I don't intend to summon, and therefore have no reserves, the only way I can follow this rule is to use models from the slain pile. The rule tells me to add d6 models, as long as I have the models available I can follow the rule, it makes no difference as the rule set doesn't dictate where the models come from off the table. It is the same for summoning, the rules do not state from where summoned models are drawn, other than from your collection. The only time this is restricted is with the references to slain models being returned, which is only specified to prevent units growing beyond their starting size.

Agree to disagree.

Doesn't really matter, though. Anyone who consistently uses summoning to return slain models to play will quickly find that they will have fewer and fewer opponents willing to play them as it will be impossible to follow the inherent balancing mechanisms.

Everyone in my area agrees with my interpretation. If everyone in your areas agree with your interpretations, then good for you.

 Kriswall wrote:
Agree to disagree.

Agreed

Bit I still go back to the Knight-Vexillor rules - it states that you "remove a unit from play" and then set it up again.
To me, that breaks the PP-esque semantics attached to the phrase 'remove from play'.
It's not clear by any shot, but I'd have no issues with units being summoned ad infinitum.

However the Knight-Vexillor isn't returning a dead unit to play. Instead you're taking a living unit and redeploying it. You're not recycling a dead unit.

I'm not sure that the Knight-Vexillor rules are really useful in this instance. They tell us to remove a model from play and then to subsequently return it to play. There is very little ambiguity here as we have a special rule overriding the standard rules in a very specific way. Yes, we're told to remove a unit from play, but in the same sentence we're told to return it to play elsewhere on the table.

In the (entirely different) context of summoning, we have to make a decision as to whether or not models that have been removed from play can be returned to play without wording telling us that they can be returned to play. I understand "in play" to mean deployed on the table or in reserve. Unfortunately, "in play" isn't defined, nor is "removed from play". As such, we rely on common definitions. If something has been removed from play, it can no longer be used to play with... including being summoned. That continues to be my read.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm not sure that the Knight-Vexillor rules are really useful in this instance. They tell us to remove a model from play and then to subsequently return it to play. There is very little ambiguity here as we have a special rule overriding the standard rules in a very specific way. Yes, we're told to remove a unit from play, but in the same sentence we're told to return it to play elsewhere on the table.

In the (entirely different) context of summoning, we have to make a decision as to whether or not models that have been removed from play can be returned to play without wording telling us that they can be returned to play. I understand "in play" to mean deployed on the table or in reserve. Unfortunately, "in play" isn't defined, nor is "removed from play". As such, we rely on common definitions. If something has been removed from play, it can no longer be used to play with... including being summoned. That continues to be my read.

This is my take on the issue as well...

To me there is three states that models have in a game of AoS,,,those that are in a players collection,being held in reserve and will not take part in the battle unless fate lends a hand,,those that are "in play" on the gameboard and those that have been "slain and or removed from play"

Summoning can come from models that are in a players collection only,,,models brought back from banners and reincarnation will state that they can be taken from "Models that have been slain".Some rules allow new models to be brought in from either pool.

This also applies for Warscrolls,,,if a players final unit of skeletons is wiped out,then they loose the summoning spell for them as well as they no longer have the unit that gave the spell "in play".

Play the game this way with a basic comp system and summoning is under control.

Not this debate again? Remove from play means that they they are no longer being used in game. Summoning rules don't state where summoned models come from. Nowhere does it distinguish between models in reserve or models available. I wouldn't endlessly recycle models myself, and would probably abandon a game that devolved into endless summoning, but there is absolutely nothing in the rules that clearly prohibits recycling with summoning.

 Kriswall wrote:
From the rules...

"In order to play, you must first muster your army from the miniatures in your collection."

First things first. You gather together all of the models and units you think you might want to play with today and put them in a big pile (or in a case, or on a table, or on shelves, or whatever). The important thing to note is that during this step you have to muster your army. You can't add extra models later that you didn't muster or you'd be breaking the rules.

The last line of every summon ability is:

"The unit is added to your army, but cannot move in the following movement phase."

If you can only summon things from your reserve, then they were already in your army.

neenerpants wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
From the rules...

"In order to play, you must first muster your army from the miniatures in your collection."

First things first. You gather together all of the models and units you think you might want to play with today and put them in a big pile (or in a case, or on a table, or on shelves, or whatever). The important thing to note is that during this step you have to muster your army. You can't add extra models later that you didn't muster or you'd be breaking the rules.

The last line of every summon ability is:

"The unit is added to your army, but cannot move in the following movement phase."

If you can only summon things from your reserve, then they were already in your army.

Well,,yeah...not sure were you are going with this but I pretty much agree with you.

Essentially your "Collection" in game terms is all the models that you have assembled to play with as Kriswal has stated.This could be your entire collection of models if you are playing at home in your game/hobby room...or perhaps everything that's on display in your game store should you have access to them.

Now models that aren't deployed at start are "set aside" and become the reserve as previously defined.

Now if you want to bring new models in by summoning then you need to have access to the spell to summon them..which means you need to have a warscroll "in play" and on the board in order to use it.Models along with their warscrolls that are in your "collection" or "in reserve" awaiting some sort of fate to be brought in do not provide any abilities to the army that's on the board as they are not "In play".

So yes,,you are correct in stating that summoned units are "already in your army" as you couldn't summon them if they weren't,,as in if that particular unit wasn't on the board and in play giving you the summoning spell.

Unless of course you are playing it that you allow players to summon anything they want from their collection off of a warscroll in play or not....that would certainly break summoning all to hell if so.

The need for seed units has been discussed at length and it has been shown that they are unnecessary. You bring the warscrolls for the models you intend to use. Having the warscroll gives the wizard the rules, no need for a seed unit on the table.

fokospatharios wrote:
In the Chaos Daemons warscrolls, it states that basically all daemon units can be summoned through Chaos Wizards. Chaos Daemons themselves are Chaos Wizards. Does this mean that any Chaos Daemon unit that is a wizard can summon any Chaos Daemon unit?

I know this may sound too obvious, but isn't it a bit too overpowered for, say, a full Tzeentch force using the formation that lets you cast additional spells summon basically twice its size, potentially?

Sure, the models count towards losses, but still, you can potentially get twice or ever three times the size of your opponent's army.

If you play sudden death its not that bad. You just have to kill 75% of your opponents starting models. I play Ogres and its not all that hard to do. My buddy plays TK and VC and he summons alot. It does make it good for blocking your back line. We did play a game where i told him to summon as much as he could and we wouldnt play sudden death......... we played for like 5 hours and probably could have played much longer but quit because it was getting late.

So yes make sure if your opponent is going to do endless amounts of summoning, to do sudden death lol.