Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In the Chaos Daemons warscrolls, it states that basically all daemon units can be summoned through Chaos Wizards. Chaos Daemons themselves are Chaos Wizards. Does this mean that any Chaos Daemon unit that is a wizard can summon any Chaos Daemon unit?

I know this may sound too obvious, but isn't it a bit too overpowered for, say, a full Tzeentch force using the formation that lets you cast additional spells summon basically twice its size, potentially?

Sure, the models count towards losses, but still, you can potentially get twice or ever three times the size of your opponent's army.

You are right, and this has been one of the main gripes with AoS since it was released. In an uncomped game, you could be "that guy" and summon in an endless cycle.

fokospatharios wrote:
In the Chaos Daemons warscrolls, it states that basically all daemon units can be summoned through Chaos Wizards. Chaos Daemons themselves are Chaos Wizards. Does this mean that any Chaos Daemon unit that is a wizard can summon any Chaos Daemon unit?

I know this may sound too obvious, but isn't it a bit too overpowered for, say, a full Tzeentch force using the formation that lets you cast additional spells summon basically twice its size, potentially?

Sure, the models count towards losses, but still, you can potentially get twice or ever three times the size of your opponent's army.

Keep in mind that you have to bring all the models/units you think that you might want to play with and then do an alternating deployment with your opponent. Anything not deployed remains in reserve. This is essentially the pool of models/units you can summon. When a summoned unit is destroyed, it is removed from play and not put back into reserve.

So...

Point 1 - You will never have an endless summoning scenario as you have to have the models/units to summon and they must be models/units that you brought with you to play with. If your intent is to summon 5 units of Bloodletters throughout the game, you need 5 units of Bloodletters in reserve. Through careful reading of the rules, you'll see that you can't summon the same physical unit over and over.

Point 2 - Any opponent worth anything is going to see this massive amount of daemon units that you've left in reserve, realize that he's going to have to fight them eventually and deploy accordingly. If I was playing against a Tzeentch army with tons of daemon units left in reserve, I would deploy to a point where I felt I could take on everything on AND off the field. No special comp system is required. The core rules allow me to deploy to match my opponent's army. The fact that part of his army is in reserve is a gamble he's taking. Every Wizard I can kill makes it harder to bring his full army to bear. Sure, he'll likely get a Sudden Death objective, but those aren't gimmes.

Think that's rough , try Nagash' double terrorgheist in one turn !

But wrath of the bloodthirster is a monster as well...side note : debating on painting one that resembles illidan in Warcraft

Also keep in mind that Summon is a spell and can be Unbound by an opposing wizard. So it's not a sure thing by any stretch.

True, but with a startIng +3 to Nagash rolls on top of 2 dice it's rough . And startOne with 7 spells... Most other armies won't have that many dispels

To the OP: yes, that is right. The only balancing factor is if you have a spot on the board more than 9" away from an enemy to put the summoned models, and if you own the summoned models in the first place. Also models that die during the battle CAN be summoned/resummoned. There is nothing stating that summoned models must come from reserves.

Best thing to do is find opponents who aren't going to abuse it, and don't invite such by abusing it yourself.

Indeed, summoned models do not have to come from reserve. So I guess it's up to the TO to make sure there will be no abuse of summoning.

Also keep in mind that Summon is a spell and can be Unbound by an opposing wizard. So it's not a sure thing by any stretch.

Sure, but the enemy wizard must be 18" from the caster, so first turn there is not unbinding.

OP also references the Tzeentch daemon battalion which spits out 10 spells a turn.

Yeah the rules are still unclear on where summoned units come from. The 4 page rules state that non-deployed models are put in reserve, and that models that lose all their wounds are "slain" and put to one side. There are some warscroll abilities that specifically resurrect "slain" models, but the general summoning rules do not mention at all where the models come from, so presumably anywhere.

I read over the tzeentch horrors and it says a unit can cast one spell then at the description says a unit is 10 or more horrors . So I think it's one spell per 10+, right ?
I would understand the summon rule to be seperate models from slain as you said , there is slain summons but has to specify

 Bottle wrote:
Yeah the rules are still unclear on where summoned units come from. The 4 page rules state that non-deployed models are put in reserve, and that models that lose all their wounds are "slain" and put to one side. There are some warscroll abilities that specifically resurrect "slain" models, but the general summoning rules do not mention at all where the models come from, so presumably anywhere.

While true that this can be interpreted one of two ways (reserve or from anywhere), I choose to go with the interpretation that matches decades of fluff and choose reserve. In the fluff, if you summon a daemon and he is killed, his essence goes back to the realms of chaos and has to stay there for a pre-determined amount of time... 1 year, 10 years, 100 years, 1000 years, etc. I can't summon a daemon, have it hacked to bits and then re-summon the same physical daemon again for the same battle. This is all fluff, but I choose to use the fluff as anecdotal evidence to help with understanding the rules as intended.

Plus...

"Once the number of wounds suffered by a model equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain. Place the slain model to one side – it is removed from play."

So... we have a system whose narrative tells us the same daemon/model can't be summoned again shortly after it dies AND whose rules tell us that models are placed to one side and removed from play. At no point in the narrative is a specific daemon/model ever re-summoned shortly after it dies. At no point in the rules are we told to return a model removed from play to play. Plus, at the start of the game, the only place from which we can draw models for a summoning spell is reserve. Why should this change partway through the game?

TLDR - Once a model has been slain, it has been slain. No take backs via re-summoning. The rules are ambiguous, but the narrative is crystal clear.

While on the subject . Would you summon plague drones or flamers, obviously can do both but which one takes more priority with current stats ? I was thinking plague drones seen more durable with the similar amount of damage capabilities

 Kriswall wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Yeah the rules are still unclear on where summoned units come from. The 4 page rules state that non-deployed models are put in reserve, and that models that lose all their wounds are "slain" and put to one side. There are some warscroll abilities that specifically resurrect "slain" models, but the general summoning rules do not mention at all where the models come from, so presumably anywhere.

While true that this can be interpreted one of two ways (reserve or from anywhere), I choose to go with the interpretation that matches decades of fluff and choose reserve. In the fluff, if you summon a daemon and he is killed, his essence goes back to the realms of chaos and has to stay there for a pre-determined amount of time... 1 year, 10 years, 100 years, 1000 years, etc. I can't summon a daemon, have it hacked to bits and then re-summon the same physical daemon again for the same battle. This is all fluff, but I choose to use the fluff as anecdotal evidence to help with understanding the rules as intended.

Plus...

"Once the number of wounds suffered by a model equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain. Place the slain model to one side – it is removed from play."

So... we have a system whose narrative tells us the same daemon/model can't be summoned again shortly after it dies AND whose rules tell us that models are placed to one side and removed from play. At no point in the narrative is a specific daemon/model ever re-summoned shortly after it dies. At no point in the rules are we told to return a model removed from play to play. Plus, at the start of the game, the only place from which we can draw models for a summoning spell is reserve. Why should this change partway through the game?

TLDR - Once a model has been slain, it has been slain. No take backs via re-summoning. The rules are ambiguous, but the narrative is crystal clear.

Yet the fluff is even more clear and widespread on the fact that undead are commonly resummoned from ones just slain on the battlefield. The 8th rule allowing zombies to go above starting unit size even stated this specifically. Also, time's flow has no meaning in the realm of chaos. Its entirely possible that daemon you summon 30 seconds after it died just spent centuries in the warp. Ultimately you are making a house rule based on your own judgement rather than written rules, which is fine, but not what the OP is asking about.

In regards to the question about plague drones or flamers, assuming you have both models available, it depends. Plague drones will be much more resilient, so if you need something to sit there for a few rounds of combat (or more) they will do that. Flamers will probably deal about the same damage (or a bit more) in regards to single-target, but if you spread out shots to maximize warpflame rolls their potential becomes much higher (if more random). What heralds you have in play is also a small but still notable factor. Ultimately both are good choices to summon but entirely dependent on what the battlefield looks like when you do it.

In regards to the question about pink horrors and spells per turn; one unit casts one spell a turn regardless of size (but must be deployed with at least 10). However, the tzeentch battalion from DoC makes all its members cast an extra spell per turn; that's 2 for the prince/LoC, 2 for the herald, and 2 for each unit of horrors for 10 total. Each one can only cast a given spell once per turn, but since summon spells are all different its entirely possible to cast 10 of them a turn; this would likely overwhelm any unbinding potential your opponent has before you even factor bonus spells on the heralds and summoned units with spells of their own. Even if you don't summon at all, having every unit mystic shield itself and cast arcane bolt on an enemy every turn is going to be pretty devastating before they even start shooting. That battalion is crazy.

I would like to think they will edit the great shaman where it can't summon Nagash.. That doesn't even make sense either way you spin it. Some weaker shaman is able to summon arguably one of the best wizards in the game

herpetitus wrote:
I would like to think they will edit the great shaman where it can't summon Nagash.. That doesn't even make sense either way you spin it. Some weaker shaman is able to summon arguably one of the best wizards in the game

Blame Union Rules. Even Nagash is a member of the Wizards local 452, and has to comply with regulations. He'd seriously have taken over the world by now if he had the chance. He spends 67& of his time fighting for the Beastmen. It really gets embarrassing. He tried invading the forest to wipe out the shamans, but they just summoned him and made him fight his own army. Embarassing.

 mikhaila wrote:

herpetitus wrote:
I would like to think they will edit the great shaman where it can't summon Nagash.. That doesn't even make sense either way you spin it. Some weaker shaman is able to summon arguably one of the best wizards in the game

Blame Union Rules. Even Nagash is a member of the Wizards local 452, and has to comply with regulations. He'd seriously have taken over the world by now if he had the chance. He spends 67& of his time fighting for the Beastmen. It really gets embarrassing. He tried invading the forest to wipe out the shamans, but they just summoned him and made him fight his own army. Embarassing.

Exalted good sir.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Yeah the rules are still unclear on where summoned units come from. The 4 page rules state that non-deployed models are put in reserve, and that models that lose all their wounds are "slain" and put to one side. There are some warscroll abilities that specifically resurrect "slain" models, but the general summoning rules do not mention at all where the models come from, so presumably anywhere.

While true that this can be interpreted one of two ways (reserve or from anywhere), I choose to go with the interpretation that matches decades of fluff and choose reserve. In the fluff, if you summon a daemon and he is killed, his essence goes back to the realms of chaos and has to stay there for a pre-determined amount of time... 1 year, 10 years, 100 years, 1000 years, etc. I can't summon a daemon, have it hacked to bits and then re-summon the same physical daemon again for the same battle. This is all fluff, but I choose to use the fluff as anecdotal evidence to help with understanding the rules as intended.

Plus...

"Once the number of wounds suffered by a model equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain. Place the slain model to one side – it is removed from play."

So... we have a system whose narrative tells us the same daemon/model can't be summoned again shortly after it dies AND whose rules tell us that models are placed to one side and removed from play. At no point in the narrative is a specific daemon/model ever re-summoned shortly after it dies. At no point in the rules are we told to return a model removed from play to play. Plus, at the start of the game, the only place from which we can draw models for a summoning spell is reserve. Why should this change partway through the game?

TLDR - Once a model has been slain, it has been slain. No take backs via re-summoning. The rules are ambiguous, but the narrative is crystal clear.

...this sounds like something thedarkavenger would say.

Besides, just because you're recycling models, doesn't mean you're recycling daemons. They're just plastic representations, after all. Your argument isn't just a stretch, it's a dried-out Stretch Armstrong. Any claims that you can't re-summon bring you perilously close to being TFG.

I'm TFG because I interpret the rules to say that you can only play with the models you brought and that when they're dead, they're dead? These aren't exactly crazy interpretations.

Allowing summoning to summon the same models over and over effectively changes summoning into a "heal slain models" can of worms. That seems more TFG like to me.

Aaaaand this thread has run its course. To the OP: you have a few different answers here, pick the one you find most logical and go with it.

Sorry to necro this thread, but relevant info come to light; "Remove from play" isn't a 'sacred' phrase in AoS.
Knight-Vexillor with pennant of the storm bringer;
"...pick a STORMCAST ETERNAL unit in your army and remove it from play, then set it up anywhere more than 3" from the enemy."
This would imply that "remove from play" simply means "take off the board" rather than "put it back in your figure case", so it doesn't necessarily mean these models are unavailable to be re-summoned.

RoperPG wrote:
Sorry to necro this thread, but relevant info come to light; "Remove from play" isn't a 'sacred' phrase in AoS.
Knight-Vexillor with pennant of the storm bringer;
"...pick a STORMCAST ETERNAL unit in your army and remove it from play, then set it up anywhere more than 3" from the enemy."
This would imply that "remove from play" simply means "take off the board" rather than "put it back in your figure case", so it doesn't necessarily mean these models are unavailable to be re-summoned.

I don't think it implies anything of the sort. The rule above tells you to remove something from play and then return it to play. Without the return it to play bit, the models would still have been removed from play... i.e., no longer used as part of the game. Without a specific rule to return those models to play, they stay removed.

 Kriswall wrote:

I don't think it implies anything of the sort. The rule above tells you to remove something from play and then return it to play. Without the return it to play bit, the models would still have been removed from play... i.e., no longer used as part of the game. Without a specific rule to return those models to play, they stay removed.

Must have misunderstood - from previous reading of the thread it seemed there was a PP-esque emphasis on the RFP stuff.

That is the whole crux of the problem- GW simply didn't write tight enough rules to discern a clear answer and so relies on a lot of agreed interpretation. If GW did define terms like RfP, for example, the threads would not come up.

But GW is a model company for collectors ;-)

My plan for being that guy,
Nagash, summons balewind vortex, now has +1 cast and double range on spells... That leaves him with 7 spells (if unwounded) casting value 6 automatically... Profit
I would only do this against a that guy player or in a tournament (that some how hasn't implemented rules to atop this)

LucidNinja wrote:
My plan for being that guy,
Nagash, summons balewind vortex, now has +1 cast and double range on spells... That leaves him with 7 spells (if unwounded) casting value 6 automatically... Profit
I would only do this against a that guy player or in a tournament (that some how hasn't implemented rules to atop this)

Nagash isn't really that scary if you play by the actual game rules and not by one of the various attempts to balance via wounds/fan created points/models/etc.

In the actual game rules, you show up with all the models you might want to play with, so you'll see everything Nagash is able to summon and be able to deploy accordingly. Then, after a unit has been summoned and killed, it is removed from play. It is NOT placed back into reserve. A strict reading of the rules shows that you can't re-summon a model that has been removed as a casualty. In other words, if the Nagash player wants to summon three units of Skeletons over the course of the game, he or she needs to show up with three units of skeletons and leave them all in reserve. You, as his opponent, can see that he has those skeletons sitting there and should deploy enough models to handle Nagash AND the inevitable three units of summoned skeletons.

If that's the case, then the undead player would just place them on the board . Spells can be dispelled... It is Nagash but that method of balancing on eyeing is ehh..

Yeah I'm pretty sure I'd keep my army in my case then. Also summoning doesn't come from reserves and slain models are just removed. I see no rule saying you can't re use slayed models...

That's what I've been back and forth on Is resummoning slain models with seperate summon spells .
Have 3 thirsters to be safe

I think the only reason to not be able to summon slain models is to boost GW sales... I'm not having a back up 160 skeletons...