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KDK imho is the best one

As much as it pains me to say I don't think Orks aren't the best CC army.

We have vulnerabilities to fear, ineffective transports, nobz can be easily challenged out and it seems like shooting has become so much more powerful over the last few editions. The amount of strength 6 spam is becoming unreal and with low armour save we are the most vulnerable to it. Mob test screw us over as we usually win combat by grinding the enemy down.


We would lose 8 guys and kill 4 but it would be ok as we would have plenty more where that came from. Now we're losing combat and testing on Ld3-4 regularly and losing extra boyz due to mob rule. The worst part is that it can happen twice in one game turn because I have to do it in my opponents cc phase as well. Also don't forget you can fail mob checks people seem to think it's an auto pass it is not.

On the flip side our mek guns, lootas, tankbustsa, bikes and buggies are great. I am scoring first blood in so many games now due to shooting. I believe unless you want to go tide orks are better at shooting then cc currently.

Wraiths > TWC. Necrons.

 Ignatius wrote:
because if the Harlequins don't kill everything in their initiative step then they are done for. My Blob Guard handle Harlequins nicely as they cannot kill enough on their turn to avoid the return hits and not die with their T3 5++ saves.

I still default to Thunderwolves.

Well khorne daemons are blowing away everything else and I dont see what makes them so much more resilient then Harlequins, infact they just seem weaker to me.

Least my Harlequins can soften up large target units with lots of shuriken cannons before the charge, I usually run atleast one raider full of troupes equiped with Caresses and they dont have much of a problem with anything other then units with a dangerous Overwatch.

I really dont understand why Khorne has 3x the votes compared to Harlequins though.

I agree that Khorne isn't as great as this poll is seeming to suggest- having quite a bit of experience with them. They have great potential but rarely do any but a few units really perform as well as they should.

But Khorne Daemonkin are much more than just Khorne Daemons, and so are much more resilient than Harlequins- their best units being T4, with either a 3+ save (often with Feel No Pain) or a 5++ with 2W (often with Feel No Pain).

That or it's a T6 5W FMC. So yeah a little more resilient.

By far and away, the Black Templars.

Take one chapter of Marines. Add choppy, a crusading theme, and all the tricks/tools available to C:SM.

Oh, and meatbags that grant melee bonuses on the turn they die:

 Ignatius wrote:
I agree that Khorne isn't as great as this poll is seeming to suggest- having quite a bit of experience with them. They have great potential but rarely do any but a few units really perform as well as they should.

But Khorne Daemonkin are much more than just Khorne Daemons, and so are much more resilient than Harlequins- their best units being T4, with either a 3+ save (often with Feel No Pain) or a 5++ with 2W (often with Feel No Pain).

That or it's a T6 5W FMC. So yeah a little more resilient.

Alright maybe maybe khorne has a few more units that are resilient, in my mind I was comparing Troupes with Bloodletters and both are just as resilient, but Troupes are more dangerous in CC.

If you wanna start throwing in MC, then let me add my Blitzing Solitaire with 12 attacks on Initiative 10. Hes killed his fair amount of MC and I still think Harlequin are the best in CC

Ætherowl wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
I agree that Khorne isn't as great as this poll is seeming to suggest- having quite a bit of experience with them. They have great potential but rarely do any but a few units really perform as well as they should.

But Khorne Daemonkin are much more than just Khorne Daemons, and so are much more resilient than Harlequins- their best units being T4, with either a 3+ save (often with Feel No Pain) or a 5++ with 2W (often with Feel No Pain).

That or it's a T6 5W FMC. So yeah a little more resilient.

Alright maybe maybe khorne has a few more units that are resilient, in my mind I was comparing Troupes with Bloodletters and both are just as resilient, but Troupes are more dangerous in CC.

If you wanna start throwing in MC, then let me add my Blitzing Solitaire with 12 attacks on Initiative 10. Hes killed his fair amount of MC and I still think Harlequin are the best in CC

And having played against Halequins with Daemonkin I can tell you that they aren't. Potential damage =/= actual damage. And of course I'm adding in the rest of the Daemonkin Codex (FMC's included), that's the idea of the poll. The people voting in the poll are not referring to Bloodletters when they vote for Daemonkin.

 Ignatius wrote:

Ætherowl wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
I agree that Khorne isn't as great as this poll is seeming to suggest- having quite a bit of experience with them. They have great potential but rarely do any but a few units really perform as well as they should.

But Khorne Daemonkin are much more than just Khorne Daemons, and so are much more resilient than Harlequins- their best units being T4, with either a 3+ save (often with Feel No Pain) or a 5++ with 2W (often with Feel No Pain).

That or it's a T6 5W FMC. So yeah a little more resilient.

Alright maybe maybe khorne has a few more units that are resilient, in my mind I was comparing Troupes with Bloodletters and both are just as resilient, but Troupes are more dangerous in CC.

If you wanna start throwing in MC, then let me add my Blitzing Solitaire with 12 attacks on Initiative 10. Hes killed his fair amount of MC and I still think Harlequin are the best in CC

And having played against Halequins with Daemonkin I can tell you that they aren't. Potential damage =/= actual damage. And of course I'm adding in the rest of the Daemonkin Codex (FMC's included), that's the idea of the poll. The people voting in the poll are not referring to Bloodletters when they vote for Daemonkin.

So you are judging Harlequins by the one or two players youve fought? Nothing in the Khorne army scares me. I would gladly put up my 30xTroupes armed with a mixture of Caresses and kisses, a Solitarie and up to 6xML2 psykers I could bring to further buff my melee, I believe Harlies win in a melee contest hands down vs Khorne daemonkin.

Gentlemen, settle this like real men on vassal

Ætherowl wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

Ætherowl wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
I agree that Khorne isn't as great as this poll is seeming to suggest- having quite a bit of experience with them. They have great potential but rarely do any but a few units really perform as well as they should.

But Khorne Daemonkin are much more than just Khorne Daemons, and so are much more resilient than Harlequins- their best units being T4, with either a 3+ save (often with Feel No Pain) or a 5++ with 2W (often with Feel No Pain).

That or it's a T6 5W FMC. So yeah a little more resilient.

Alright maybe maybe khorne has a few more units that are resilient, in my mind I was comparing Troupes with Bloodletters and both are just as resilient, but Troupes are more dangerous in CC.

If you wanna start throwing in MC, then let me add my Blitzing Solitaire with 12 attacks on Initiative 10. Hes killed his fair amount of MC and I still think Harlequin are the best in CC

And having played against Halequins with Daemonkin I can tell you that they aren't. Potential damage =/= actual damage. And of course I'm adding in the rest of the Daemonkin Codex (FMC's included), that's the idea of the poll. The people voting in the poll are not referring to Bloodletters when they vote for Daemonkin.

So you are judging Harlequins by the one or two players youve fought? Nothing in the Khorne army scares me. I would gladly put up my 30xTroupes armed with a mixture of Caresses and kisses, a Solitarie and up to 6xML2 psykers I could bring to further buff my melee, I believe Harlies win in a melee contest hands down vs Khorne daemonkin.

No the point was I have played against them, while it sounds like you have never played against Khorne. So while I can give anecdotal evidence regarding the subject, it's better than nothing.

I understand you have good Close Combat units. I also understand that you don't think anything in the army is scary, but I can tell you that Khorne loves to be in combat with elite, close combat armies. It's what it is best at.

Harlequins might be as good as Khorne DK in CC... but they die on the battlefield before they get there. Chaos bolters and heldrakes just ruin the Harlequins on the field. Where as a Juggerlord with Spawn escort with another Juggerlord or Herald with Bloodcrushers and a Thirster with some relices wandering around is going to get there and then wreck.

Even if. in a toe to toe match, Harlies can take DK (and they can't) against other foes seen in a tournament like envirnoment, the DK force will do better across several games and against diverse opponents. Harlequins are really cool and so fun... but Khorne

 Lobukia wrote:
Harlequins might be as good as Khorne DK in CC... but they die on the battlefield before they get there. Chaos bolters and heldrakes just ruin the Harlequins on the field. Where as a Juggerlord with Spawn escort with another Juggerlord or Herald with Bloodcrushers and a Thirster with some relices wandering around is going to get there and then wreck.

Even if. in a toe to toe match, Harlies can take DK (and they can't) against other foes seen in a tournament like envirnoment, the DK force will do better across several games and against diverse opponents. Harlequins are really cool and so fun... but Khorne

I think this is a pretty good way to describe my opinion too.

Inquisition!

Run an entire army of Crusaders - Storm Shields and Power swords for dirt cheap.

Throw in some Priests with Eviscerators for added umph.

Plus you have the inquisitors for your special grenade needs and specialised melee weaponry (Thunder Hammer etc.)

Salt with Land Raiders to taste.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Allies-gimmicked TWC/Biker-blob'd marine deathstars really.

But just one specific army? Dunno, that's a tough one.

Finally someone knows how to play ! Thanks man.

 Formosa wrote:
Mono black knight ravenwing detachment, awsome shooting and damn good cc, utility wins out for me.

Doesn't seem like they're the best, but they certainly seem to be pretty solid contenders. Pretty surprising for an army that's supposed to be primarily "shooty".

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
Gentlemen, settle this like real men on vassal

Isn't that still on 6E? That would give some pretty skewed results.

Well the question is "best cc army". A deathstar is not an army and most armies that run those deathstars aren't good at combat.

My personal opinion/experience, not many players are even proficient at using combat 'armies' (not calling out any particular poster just an observation). This is why more niche armies like covens, harlequins and even kdk might not rank as high as they probably should. That and marines are what many people are most familiar with. IMO.

I would love to say my Orks R' Da best at Get'n Stuck 'N but in reality I know its Khorne Daemon Kin :(

Curious what makes people say daemonkin over DoC? They literally only have maulerfiends and bikes over daemons. Otoh DoC has the same walkers only fleet, vastly better daemons in daemonettes, the same hounds only led by ap2 ID wielding heralds, jetpack cavalry, jetbikes, double cad buys up to 8 hq slots and etc etc.

I lumped kdk in with daemons but honestly I'm not seeing it.

Do the people voting orcs realize that they have no invulnerable saves in CC

Quite likely.
Given that it's a matter of ganging up rather than individual power with Orks.

Us Orkz!!! Throw in a painboy for a FNP, drop the blob baby.

Daemons are the best close-combat army.

Not KDK though, just regular Daemons. Slaanesh daemons are better CC units than anything in Daemonkin, and vanilla daemons have the benefit of the grimoire and invisibility spam, which KDC lacks access too.

I know it should be some version of Khorne, Nids, or even Orks, but man have I seen Necron Wraiths and Spiders do a lot of work in the past. There's just something really good about how powerful their saves are, and how nasty their attacks can be.

Agree on daemonkin.

harlequins are better model for model, but what makes khorne nastier is the mix of bloodletters and marines and cultists - elitekillers like harlequins can butcher bloodletters but struggle to deal with massed low-grade infantry thats still fearless and still puts out lots of attacks.

also, you can get serious protection from psyker tricks for little cost - infernal contempt plus a collar of khorne gives you a 3+ roll for deny the witch.

plus, daemon knights of khorne.

Harlequins are good but tell me what harlequin unit can easily get 5 or 6 attacks per model on the charge on a unit of standard charge

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Harlequins are good but tell me what harlequin unit can easily get 5 or 6 attacks per model on the charge on a unit of standard charge

We might not have whole units with 5-6 attacks but I usually have about 10 models with 5 attacks.

Solitaire has 8 on the charge, 12 blitzing

I love my psykers and usually bring all 6, so 5 attacks on the charge for all of the Shadowseers

My 3 troupe masters all have 5 attack on the charge.

My regular troupes only have 4 attacks on the charge, yes. But auto wounding/glancing with Caresses on hits of 6 saves me a whole rolling phase, and sorta makes up for that dont you think?

Also I get to charge almost every turn thanks to hit and run and a high initiative of 6 on every one of the mentioned models. But yeah I usually run with 10 models in the 5-6 attack range or more. Also if you run 6 shadowseers keep about half of them ml2 and the other half ml1, best way to run em, cheap too, unless you are fishing for invisibility then upgrade em all, just saying you usually wont have enough dice to cast all your powers. Thats why you only need 2-3 upgraded to ml2.

Im really starting to think most of you have not seen how deadly an entire Harlequin army cloaked in Invisibility can be. We do it so easy also, forget the Solitaire take 7 psykers in a single detachment, they are no push overs in combat themselves either.

I myself like 11xTroupes and 1xMaster all armed with the caress, then I add 2xShadowseers to them. They can kill anything they want in CC and the psykers again make the combat all the easier. I run 3 units exactly like this and they own everything, landraiders, terminators, hordes, anything but a zooming flyer. If you get a full charge off, hopefully thanks to the protection of your psykers... thats 49xCaress attacks, rolls of 6 to hit auto wounding at AP2, and auto glance vehicles (you'll on average get 8 of these auto wounds). The Shadowseers then add another 10 attacks at s5, concussive and fleshbane. All of this striking at I6, Eat it khorne