Planned Parenthood in Colorado Springs Shooting: 3 Dead

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**jasper76**

While religion/politics are the common sense motives here, especially given the degree to which Planned Parenthood has become a specific religious/political target, I think it would be prudent to wait until other plausible motives have been ruled out. For example, the man may have been a disgruntled employee, or perhaps had a non-political grudge against an individual who worked at the Planned Parenthood.

**Kanluwen**

jasper76 wrote:
While religion/politics are the common sense motives here, especially given the degree to which Planned Parenthood has become a specific religious/political target, I think it would be prudent to wait until other plausible motives have been ruled out. For example, the man may have been a disgruntled employee, or perhaps had a non-political grudge against an individual who worked at the Planned Parenthood.

Yet someone who looks Middle Eastern does something similar and it's ISIS at work.

**jasper76**

Kanluwen wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
While religion/politics are the common sense motives here, especially given the degree to which Planned Parenthood has become a specific religious/political target, I think it would be prudent to wait until other plausible motives have been ruled out. For example, the man may have been a disgruntled employee, or perhaps had a non-political grudge against an individual who worked at the Planned Parenthood.

Yet someone who looks Middle Eastern does something similar and it's ISIS at work.

Not sure if this is targeted at me, or just a general statement. As a rule, I try to hold my tongue on motives until they're known.

**LordofHats**

Kanluwen wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
While religion/politics are the common sense motives here, especially given the degree to which Planned Parenthood has become a specific religious/political target, I think it would be prudent to wait until other plausible motives have been ruled out. For example, the man may have been a disgruntled employee, or perhaps had a non-political grudge against an individual who worked at the Planned Parenthood.

Yet someone who looks Middle Eastern does something similar and it's ISIS at work.

Those of us who hate how others jump the gun shouldn't jump the gun ourselves

A religiously motivated attack is probable, even likely. But we still don't know. For all we know he though PP stood for "Plenty of Pennies" and he only started shooting when he learned there were no pennies

**Kanluwen**

jasper76 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
While religion/politics are the common sense motives here, especially given the degree to which Planned Parenthood has become a specific religious/political target, I think it would be prudent to wait until other plausible motives have been ruled out. For example, the man may have been a disgruntled employee, or perhaps had a non-political grudge against an individual who worked at the Planned Parenthood.

Yet someone who looks Middle Eastern does something similar and it's ISIS at work.

Not sure if this is targeted at me, or just a general statement. As a rule, I try to hold my tongue on motives until they're known.

It's targeted at your statement. When something like this happens and a white guy who is likely Christian and probably a Republican is the suspect?
"HOLD THE PHONE EVERYONE! We need to find out what's going on!"
Someone who looks Middle Eastern or Indian/Pakistani gets shown as the suspect in custody or a photo gets circulated or witness reports?
"OHEMGEE TERRORISM!"

It's a ridiculous double standard. This is NOT the first time a Planned Parenthood clinic has been targeted by a white Christian, probably a Republican/Tea Party member, nor will it likely be the last time it happens with the irresponsible drek that gets shoveled by the Republican party's demagogues.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
While religion/politics are the common sense motives here, especially given the degree to which Planned Parenthood has become a specific religious/political target, I think it would be prudent to wait until other plausible motives have been ruled out. For example, the man may have been a disgruntled employee, or perhaps had a non-political grudge against an individual who worked at the Planned Parenthood.

Yet someone who looks Middle Eastern does something similar and it's ISIS at work.

Those of us who hate how others jump the gun shouldn't jump the gun ourselves

A religiously motivated attack is probable, even likely. But we still don't know. For all we know he though PP stood for "Plenty of Pennies" and he only started shooting when he learned there were no pennies

I'm allowed to be hypocritical in this situation.

People generally don't shoot up Planned Parenthood clinics as "targets of opportunity". I cannot think of an instance where a PP clinic was involved in a non-religious motivated shooting.
Is there a CHANCE that this was motivated by something other than religion?

Sure. But it's so minute of a chance that it's not even worth mentioning.

**jasper76**

Kanluwen wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
While religion/politics are the common sense motives here, especially given the degree to which Planned Parenthood has become a specific religious/political target, I think it would be prudent to wait until other plausible motives have been ruled out. For example, the man may have been a disgruntled employee, or perhaps had a non-political grudge against an individual who worked at the Planned Parenthood.

Yet someone who looks Middle Eastern does something similar and it's ISIS at work.

Not sure if this is targeted at me, or just a general statement. As a rule, I try to hold my tongue on motives until they're known.

It's targeted at your statement. When something like this happens and a white guy who is likely Christian and probably a Republican is the suspect?
"HOLD THE PHONE EVERYONE! We need to find out what's going on!"
Someone who looks Middle Eastern or Indian/Pakistani gets shown as the suspect in custody or a photo gets circulated or witness reports?
"OHEMGEE TERRORISM!"

It's a ridiculous double standard. This is NOT the first time a Planned Parenthood clinic has been targeted by a white Christian, probably a Republican/Tea Party member, nor will it likely be the last time it happens with the irresponsible drek that gets shoveled by the Republican party's demagogues.

Feel free to go looking for a post on my part where I've jumped in and said "OHEMGEE TERRORISM!" or the like because an attack occurred and the perpetrator was not a white Christian. You won't find one.

**Kanluwen**

jasper76 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
While religion/politics are the common sense motives here, especially given the degree to which Planned Parenthood has become a specific religious/political target, I think it would be prudent to wait until other plausible motives have been ruled out. For example, the man may have been a disgruntled employee, or perhaps had a non-political grudge against an individual who worked at the Planned Parenthood.

Yet someone who looks Middle Eastern does something similar and it's ISIS at work.

Not sure if this is targeted at me, or just a general statement. As a rule, I try to hold my tongue on motives until they're known.

It's targeted at your statement. When something like this happens and a white guy who is likely Christian and probably a Republican is the suspect?
"HOLD THE PHONE EVERYONE! We need to find out what's going on!"
Someone who looks Middle Eastern or Indian/Pakistani gets shown as the suspect in custody or a photo gets circulated or witness reports?
"OHEMGEE TERRORISM!"

It's a ridiculous double standard. This is NOT the first time a Planned Parenthood clinic has been targeted by a white Christian, probably a Republican/Tea Party member, nor will it likely be the last time it happens with the irresponsible drek that gets shoveled by the Republican party's demagogues.

Feel free to go looking for a post on my part where I've jumped in and said "OHEMGEE TERRORISM!" or the like because the perpetrator was not a white Christian. You won't find one.

I'm not saying you did.

I'm saying that your STATEMENT is what I have an issue with. The "calls for calm and patience" are few and far between when we have things like the shootings in Paris, but with things happening on our own soil?

All of a sudden we need to step back and wait for the proper authorities to do their jobs? And it's ALWAYS the same thing. We hear about this for MAYBE three or four days, then nothing.

You won't hear about how his church might have "radicalized him", or how he bought the guns legally or any of that crap. You'll just hear about how he's a "misunderstood" individual who had deeply held religious convictions.

It's despicable.

**jasper76**

I'd say yes, we should wait until there is some source that the attack was religiously motivated before we automatically assume that it was. I don't have my head in the sand. I am awake to the dangerous rhetoric that religious groups and GOP politicians are leveling against abortion practitioners and specifically Planned Parenthood. I realize that in all likelihood, this shooting spree, terrorist attack, mass murder, whatever you want to call it was motivated by that rhetoric.

But no media source that I've seen has claimed to have identified a motive at this point.

**sirlynchmob**

jasper76 wrote:
I'd say yes, we should wait until there is some source that the attack was religiously motivated before we automatically assume that they are. I don't have my head in the sand. I am awake to the dangerous rhetoric that religious groups and GOP politicians are leveling against abortion practitioners and specifically Planned Parenthood. I realize that in all likelihood, this shooting spree, terrorist attack, mass murder, whatever you want to call it was motivated by that rhetoric.

But no media source that I've seen has claimed to have identifed a motive at this point.

Not surprising, they almost never bring up a white mans religion when he goes on a shooting spree in the states. Nor will they ever mention it was religiously motivated

**Kanluwen**

jasper76 wrote:
I'd say yes, we should wait until there is some source that the attack was religiously motivated before we automatically assume that they are. I don't have my head in the sand. I am awake to the dangerous rhetoric that religious groups and GOP politicians are leveling against abortion practitioners and specifically Planned Parenthood. I realize that in all likelihood, this shooting spree, terrorist attack, mass murder, whatever you want to call it was motivated by that rhetoric.

But no media source that I've seen has claimed to have identifed a motive at this point.

Which is EXACTLY my point!

In any other case, Fox would have already been running some kind of "special report" about how dangerous Muslims are or how black people get given passes on violent crime because it's "black on black crime" or some other garbage.

But I guaran-frigging-tee you that if anyone from that police department says that it was motivated by Christian ideology? We'd be hearing about the friggin' "War on Christianity" again.

Sorry if you feel like I'm taking things out on you, specifically, but it's just irritating to see this nonsense. Especially so close on the heels of the "we need to keep Syrian refugees out because otherwise ISIS is going to kill us all" crap.

**jasper76**

@sirlynchmob: Depends on who "they" are. Left leaning media like Huffington Post will be swift to tie these crimes to right-wing churches and right-wing politicians.

For example: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/active-shooter-reported-in-colorado-springs-near-planned-parenthood_5658a87be4b079b2818a6d86?6kbdfgvi

**LordofHats**

sirlynchmob wrote:
Not surprising, they almost never bring up a white mans religion when he goes on a shooting spree in the states. Nor will they ever mention it was religiously motivated

I wouldn't agree with that. When the faith of the person in question is relevant to the crime, it is usually brought up such as the case of Joe Rogers, Scott Roeder, and Eric Rudolph.

What I would agree with is that attacks on Planned Parenthood generally receive remarkably little press attention given how many of them involve bombs and arson. Terrorism is also rarely a word applied to such attacks by mainstream media outlets.

**sirlynchmob**

jasper76 wrote:
@sirlynchmob: Depends on who "they" are. Left leaning media like Huffington Post will be swift to tie these crimes to right-wing churches and right-wing politicians.

They=mainstream TV media.

bad joke: don't read it.

Spoiler:

**LordofHats**

sirlynchmob wrote:

bad joke: don't read it.

Spoiler:

we know christian extremest can't read, that's why they've never read their bible

Eh. You get an "I tried hard" B

**Kanluwen**

jasper76 wrote:
@sirlynchmob: Depends on who "they" are. Left leaning media like Huffington Post will be swift to tie these crimes to right-wing churches and right-wing politicians.

For example: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/active-shooter-reported-in-colorado-springs-near-planned-parenthood_5658a87be4b079b2818a6d86?6kbdfgvi

Could you please show me where HP actually does that?

There's a bit from Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains("We don't yet know the full circumstances and motives behind this criminal action, and we don't yet know if Planned Parenthood was in fact the target of this attack. We share the concerns of many Americans that extremists are creating a poisonous environment that feeds domestic terrorism in this country. We will never back away from providing care in a safe, supportive environment that millions of people rely on and trust," the statement continued.") and then HP finishes out the article mentioning:

Spoiler:

But that's the only time "religion" gets brought up by HP itself.

**sirlynchmob**

jasper76 wrote:
@sirlynchmob: Depends on who "they" are. Left leaning media like Huffington Post will be swift to tie these crimes to right-wing churches and right-wing politicians.

For example: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/active-shooter-reported-in-colorado-springs-near-planned-parenthood_5658a87be4b079b2818a6d86?6kbdfgvi

"We don't yet know the full circumstances and motives behind this criminal action, and we don't yet know if Planned Parenthood was in fact the target of this attack"

If they're going to tie it to right wingers, they haven't as of yet.

**jasper76**

@Kanluwen: Those were the sections of the article I was referring to.

**Kanluwen**

jasper76 wrote:
@Kanluwen: Those were the sections of the article I was referring to.

The first part isn't actually Huffington Post though. That's a STATEMENT FROM PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS.

The remainder is actually fairly relevant, and the mention of religion and spiritual beliefs has nothing to do with any of the Planned Parenthood attacks.

**Tactical_Spam**

sirlynchmob wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
@sirlynchmob: Depends on who "they" are. Left leaning media like Huffington Post will be swift to tie these crimes to right-wing churches and right-wing politicians.

They=mainstream TV media.

bad joke: don't read it.

Spoiler:

we know christian extremest can't read, that's why they've never read their bible

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

**jasper76**

Kanluwen wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
@Kanluwen: Those were the sections of the article I was referring to.

The first part isn't actually Huffington Post though. That's a STATEMENT FROM PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS.

The remainder is actually fairly relevant, and the mention of religion and spiritual beliefs has nothing to do with any of the Planned Parenthood attacks.

In any case, if and when the motive is determined to be anti-abortion, my main point was that there will be no shortage of left leaning publications with articles discussing the ties between anti-abortion rhetoric and anti-abortion violence.

If you all are waiting for conservative preachers, politicians, and news outlets like FOX to start admitting their mutual complicity in anti-abortion violence, I have the feeling you'll be waiting indefinitely.

**Dreadclaw69**

sirlynchmob wrote:
Not surprising, they almost never bring up a white mans religion when he goes on a shooting spree in the states. Nor will they ever mention it was religiously motivated

The religion of Vester Flanagan, an African American, and Seung-Hui Cho, a naturalized US citizen from South Korea, were also not much discussed in the media and neither of them were white. The recent shooting in New Orleans between gangs was also not reported as religiously motivated either. The reason that most of these incidents are not reported as religiously motivated is because the overwhelming majority of them are not religiously motivated, but are carried out by people with grudges, mental illnesses, etc.

Was this particular attack religiously motivated? We don't yet know.

**sirlynchmob**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
Not surprising, they almost never bring up a white mans religion when he goes on a shooting spree in the states. Nor will they ever mention it was religiously motivated

The religion of Vester Flanagan, an African American, and Seung-Hui Cho, a naturalized US citizen from South Korea, were also not much discussed in the media and neither of them were white. The recent shooting in New Orleans between gangs was also not reported as religiously motivated either. The reason that most of these incidents are not reported as religiously motivated is because the overwhelming majority of them are not religiously motivated, but are carried out by people with grudges, mental illnesses, etc.

Was this particular attack religiously motivated? We don't yet know.

seeing as it was a planned parenthood clinic, the quick answer is Yes.

we know pro lifers, who quote the bible as the source of why they hold their beliefs also do this:

http://www.blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/10/21/anti-abortion-extremists-distribute-wanted-posters-for-abortion-providers/

and we know churches have handed out wanted posters for doctors:

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/10/how_the_right_plays_with_murder_the_anti_abortion_movements_cycle_of_violence/

Every clinic bombed or burned, and every clinician assaulted or killed, had been previously picketed, targeted or assailed by antiabortion groups like Operation Rescue and the Army of God. Operation Rescue issued “Wanted” posters of abortion providers, often listing their home addresses. Several of the doctors listed on the posters, including David Gunn, George Patterson, John Britton and George Tiller, were killed by antiabortion zealots.

if they are not religiously motivated, then why not label them a terrorist group and treat them accordingly? And if not religiously motivated, why are they calling themselves the army of god?

**Dreadclaw69**

sirlynchmob wrote:
seeing as it was a planned parenthood clinic, the quick answer is Yes.

we know pro lifers, who quote the bible as the source of why they hold their beliefs also do this:

http://www.blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/10/21/anti-abortion-extremists-distribute-wanted-posters-for-abortion-providers/

and we know churches have handed out wanted posters for doctors:

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/10/how_the_right_plays_with_murder_the_anti_abortion_movements_cycle_of_violence/

Every clinic bombed or burned, and every clinician assaulted or killed, had been previously picketed, targeted or assailed by antiabortion groups like Operation Rescue and the Army of God. Operation Rescue issued “Wanted” posters of abortion providers, often listing their home addresses. Several of the doctors listed on the posters, including David Gunn, George Patterson, John Britton and George Tiller, were killed by antiabortion zealots.

if they are not religiously motivated, then why not label them a terrorist group and treat them accordingly? And if not religiously motivated, why are they calling themselves the army of god?

The actual motive of the shooter has not yet been determined, so at this point you are leaping to conclusions.

Has there been any evidence released to show this shooter's connection to Operation Rescue or Army of God?

**Relapse**

The man definitely doesn't look all there. I'm wondering if he had some type of episode like the lady who took her car into that crowd of people.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:
I mean, it was an old white guy in a historically libertarian/conservative state shooting at cops from a Planned Parenthood office in a city where the military employs ~20% of the residents. It shouldn't be surprising if people's mind drift a certain way.

It's not all tha conservative. I mean they're one of the two states where marijuana is legal.

**sirlynchmob**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:

The actual motive of the shooter has not yet been determined, so at this point you are leaping to conclusions.

Has there been any evidence released to show this shooter's connection to Operation Rescue or Army of God?

No, because no one in the mainstream media (TV) will ask the question. And by the time it comes out at trial, no one will care anymore.

Every clinic bombed or burned, and every clinician assaulted or killed, had been previously picketed, targeted or assailed by antiabortion groups like Operation Rescue and the Army of God. Operation Rescue issued “Wanted” posters of abortion providers, often listing their home addresses. Several of the doctors listed on the posters, including David Gunn, George Patterson, John Britton and George Tiller, were killed by antiabortion zealots.

It takes some serious leaping and a lot denialism to even possibly imagine it wasn't religiously motivated.

**Dreadclaw69**

sirlynchmob wrote:
It takes some serious leaping and a lot denialism to even possibly imagine it wasn't religiously motivated.

The only thing being denied is your claim that this was religiously motivated when no evidence for that claim exists. Currently your argument appears to be that the absence of evidence concerning the motivation of the shooter proves the motivation was religion.

**Kanluwen**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
It takes some serious leaping and a lot denialism to even possibly imagine it wasn't religiously motivated.

The only thing being denied is your claim that this was religiously motivated when no evidence for that claim exists. Currently your argument appears to be that the absence of evidence concerning the motivation of the shooter proves the motivation was religion.

I bet you're going to say that this was a bank robbery gone wrong next, right?

His argument is that the selection of target is proof of the motivation being religion.

**Dreadclaw69**

Kanluwen wrote:
I bet you're going to say that this was a bank robbery gone wrong next, right?

How much would you like to bet? I'll send you instructions on where to send the wager.

Kanluwen wrote:
His argument is that the selection of target is proof of the motivation being religion.

It may be that it was religiously motivated, I'm not saying it is not a possibility. But to claim it as fact when the actual motivation is not yet known is unhelpful.

**Kanluwen**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
I bet you're going to say that this was a bank robbery gone wrong next, right?

How much would you like to bet? I'll send you instructions on where to send the wager.

See, now that you know I was going to mock you for suggesting it? It'd be a fallacious wager and easy enough for you to claim while making it impossible for me to win.

Kanluwen wrote:
His argument is that the selection of target is proof of the motivation being religion.

It may be that it was religiously motivated, I'm not saying it is not a possibility. But to claim it as fact when the actual motivation is not yet known is unhelpful.

You know what else is unhelpful?

Pretending that there, realistically, could be some other kind of motivation. People don't generally target Planned Parenthood centers. They generally are in areas with a pretty quick police response time, and police are aware that Planned Parenthood has been the target of shooters/bombings before which amps up the response time as well.

You could make the argument that this was an attempt at "suicide by cop" but that falls flat pretty quick since he surrendered to the police rather than doing something to necessitate the police to end him.

**curran12**

So why are we not waiting for the evidence again?

It could be religious, it could be a domestic issue, it could be space fairies inside his brain. Right now, we don't know.

So why aren't we waiting for more information? Can someone clear that up for me.