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Martel732 wrote:
I dare you to go smash that WK. Or smashfucker.

If the WK is equipped with sword and board, you have the option to ignore it. Likewise with smashfether.

Traditio wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
So you put a flying FMC on the ground to get shot?
It's much safer in the air.

The whole idea of a FMC is the F part

The question that was proposed, as I understood it, was: "What do Tyrranids have to deal with things that can't be killed with S6 spam?"

The answer is: monstrous creatures (including flying monstrous creatures) that can make smash attacks.

If the tyrranid player doesn't want to use them that way, that's his problem.

And we're telling you thats not a solution. FMCs after changing from flying to walking on the ground have to wait a whole turn before it can declare an assault. This gives your opponent for then enough time to kill a T6 4W 3+ MC dead before it even gets the chance to declare a charge. This is the same problem their foot MCs have which is they will die before they can even declare a charge.

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
S6 spam does have some limitations, too, albeit few. Eldar fill in the gaps with D weapons. What do the Tyranids have?

Flying monstrous creatures that can make smash attacks.

FMCs that can be instakilled by D Weapons on platforms they can barely hurt, Force Weapons they get zero chance to protect against and that cost nearly the same as Lords of War in good armies. And frankly, Smash is crap.

Go try to play Tyranids and you'll see what the issue is. Spamming all of two units is not a fun way to play and it does in fact mean the codex is underpowered. You want to keep comparing it to Eldar and Tau, but Eldar and Tau have alternative options. Tyranids do not. Take away Scatter Laser Jetbikes and you STILL have Warp Spiders, Wave Serpents, more D Weapons than should ever have been included, Rending on every random guy and incredible Psychic Powers. Take away Riptides and Tau still have suits that can Ignore Cover with 4 S6 AP2 shots per model, ignore line of sight with S5 missiles, Ignore Cover via Markerlights, Skyfire, Interceptor, S10 guns, S8 guns and all the usual tools an army is expected to have.

Traditio, do you really think smash is useful at all or even worth thinking about? Is it an actual point of contention for you regarding the power level of the codex?

Or are you just trolling?

You don't have the option to ignore a wraith knight. Most of your units can't get away, and the ones that can will die to the rest of the eldar list anyway while you spend time running from the wraith knight. It moves twelve inches a turn, remember. Few nids units can do that that aren't stuck in the sky. And your mc's are useless against strD.

The answer to your OP is: "because they obviously are"

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Traditio, do you really think smash is useful at all or even worth thinking about? Is it an actual point of contention for you regarding the power level of the codex?

Or are you just trolling?

I don't think you guys really understand how minimal and uncontroversial a claim it is that I am making:

My claim is simply that the tyrannid codex does have options to take out things that S6 spam can't deal with.

Whether or not they have effective options for so doing is another matter.

It's as though I told you that my devastators with missile launchers (but no flakk missiles) can take out a flyrant.

Can they do so effectively? Maybe not. But they can in principle do so.

Yes, Tyranids are better than BA, but both have crap codices.

So...you're admitting that your argument is essentially worthless and was just made to be technically correct?

Memes aside, that seems somewhat pointless.

Traditio wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Traditio, do you really think smash is useful at all or even worth thinking about? Is it an actual point of contention for you regarding the power level of the codex?

Or are you just trolling?

I don't think you guys really understand how minimal and uncontroversial a claim it is that I am making:

My claim is simply that the tyrannid codex does have options to take out things that S6 spam can't deal with.

Whether or not they have effective options for so doing is another matter.

It's as though I told you that my devastators with missile launchers (but no flakk missiles) can take out a flyrant.

Can they do so effectively? Maybe not. But they can in principle do so.

Okay, yes. Lets go by what you're saying. They have options (albeit highly ineffective) to deal with stuff. How does that make them OP?

Right. But your title says "why is the codex considered underpowered". Smash is a poor means of dealing with anything, and you citing it as an option to deal with things str6 spam can't is showing that their options for doing so are terrible, which affects the power level of the codex.

Nids are bad, mmkay?

Thinking about it, I'm not so sure that a Tyranid list would far well vs an Angel's Fury list. Just another example of how thigns can go wrong for Nids.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Okay, yes. Lets go by what you're saying. They have options (albeit highly ineffective) to deal with stuff. How does that make them OP?

It doesn't, if your opponent is spamming OP crap too. If your opponent is using wraithknights and scatter bikes, well...good game, Tyrranids player. You lose.

Barring that?

Different story, bro.

Nids really aren't that bad.

Their drop pod creatures are disgusting
Dakkafex not bad
Flyrants are always kicking butt
2+ shrouding everywhere you look
Tervigon - spawning free fearless troops and being practically indestructible?
Toxicrine?
zonethropes not bad ether.

They are just weak on anti tank with high armor value and rely heavily on cover. Out of the armies that are considered bad i think they are probably the best of those.

Top of the dung heap isn't exactly a great endorsement

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Okay, yes. Lets go by what you're saying. They have options (albeit highly ineffective) to deal with stuff. How does that make them OP?

It doesn't, if your opponent is spamming OP crap too. If your opponent is using wraithknights and scatter bikes, well...good game, Tyrranids player. You lose.

Barring that?

Different story, bro.

Lets say that Tyranids spam OP crap. that would explain why the top player at LVO was, what did someone say? 40th something place?

Lets say they don't. Then they really can't compete.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nids really aren't that bad.

Their drop pod creatures are disgusting
Dakkafex not bad
Flyrants are always kicking butt
2+ shrouding everywhere you look
Tervigon - spawning free fearless troops and being practically indestructible?
Toxicrine?
zonethropes not bad ether.

They are just weak on anti tank with high armor value and rely heavily on cover. Out of the armies that are considered bad i think they are probably the best of those.

Oh yeah. That's the other thing that I didn't like about playing the Tyrannid player yesterday.

In addition to the fact that he had OP flying monsters and a horde of shrouded creatures, they were apparently also fearless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Okay, yes. Lets go by what you're saying. They have options (albeit highly ineffective) to deal with stuff. How does that make them OP?

It doesn't, if your opponent is spamming OP crap too. If your opponent is using wraithknights and scatter bikes, well...good game, Tyrranids player. You lose.

Barring that?

Different story, bro.

Lets say that Tyranids spam OP crap. that would explain why the top player at LVO was, what did someone say? 40th something place?

Lets say they don't. Then they really can't compete.

You misread what I said. Reread.

Traditio wrote:

Oh yeah. That's the other thing that I didn't like about playing the Tyrannid player yesterday.

In addition to the fact that he had OP flying monsters and a horde of shrouded creatures, they were apparently also fearless.

Because you don't know how to deal with their Synapse Creatures.

You misread what I said. Reread.

Not sure I did. If both players are spamming OP gak, Tyranids lose. If both players aren't, then Tyranids will probably lose. Just because you lost doesn't make them OP.

Martel732 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They suffer from both terrible internal balance and what little they have that is good isn't that good.

Lets look at the top four codexes generally
Eldar
Marines
Necron
Tau

All four books you can pretty much bring anything to the table and have a good shot of winning depending on the Meta. Those books have really strong combos but the base strength is above average and almost ever unit has some use. There is one or two stinkers but what codex doesn't.

Nids neither have variety or strength.

That is totally not true with marines or tau. Both lists have many bad choices, especially the marines.

Pretty much every unit in the SM codex is
1. Good on its own. (Lib, Bikes, Scouts, LSS, TFC.) Or 2. has a formation that makes it decent (Tacticals, Assault Marines, Devastators, Tech Marine, Razorbaks)

The only unit that is totally useless is assault Cents and that's because S and P assault units never work.

This list obviously narrows the more competitively your local scene leans but I like the shape my book is in

Given traditio's last thread where he got thrashed for another goal-post moving topics and inability to address most posters other than via the usual "you didn't get what I said", I think its safe to say he's just baiting again.

 Grimskul wrote:
Given traditio's last thread where he got thrashed for another goal-post moving topics and inability to address most posters other than via the usual "you didn't get what I said", I think its safe to say he's just baiting again.

I've kind of gathered that. It really doesn't matter if he thinks Tyranids are lolzomg OP, the consensus, well, everywhere, is that they're not.

They're better than csm, maybe BA, maybe even dark eldar even though it's the worst match up for them.

I wouldnt hesitate to call that codex underpowered, as a whole. It's certainly worse off than my daemons dex.

I'm beginning to think perhaps instead of thinking about solutions to the problems you face when you lose, you come here looking to argue against popular opinion or find someone who feels the same way you do. In short, a sore loser.

The things you're saying gave you trouble in your game, gave me trouble the first time too. They are easily countered and are nothing compared to what the top tier or mid tier armies can bring even in a casual list. Those fearless troops die fast. Tervigons really aren't hard to kill, and won't do much damage anyway. Cover guys can be sniped early. The only thing that doesn't have an easy answer is the flyrant.

What army do you play? If you say csm or BA, I'll understand you alot more.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Given traditio's last thread where he got thrashed for another goal-post moving topics and inability to address most posters other than via the usual "you didn't get what I said", I think its safe to say he's just baiting again.

I've kind of gathered that. It really doesn't matter if he thinks Tyranids are lolzomg OP, the consensus, well, everywhere, is that they're not.

Prettty much. Nids are in a weird spot alongside Orks, CSM, Guard and a few other factions that feel like they're the NPC's of 40K right now where their armies seem to function more as punching bags for the "big 4 of 40K" (Eldar, Tau, SM and Necrons) rather than legitimate foes that can go toe-to-toe with them without having to use crutch units to spam (wyverns for guard, flyrants for nids, bikers/tankbustas for Orks, heldrakes for CSM).

Traditio wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nids really aren't that bad.

Their drop pod creatures are disgusting
Dakkafex not bad
Flyrants are always kicking butt
2+ shrouding everywhere you look
Tervigon - spawning free fearless troops and being practically indestructible?
Toxicrine?
zonethropes not bad ether.

They are just weak on anti tank with high armor value and rely heavily on cover. Out of the armies that are considered bad i think they are probably the best of those.

Oh yeah. That's the other thing that I didn't like about playing the Tyrannid player yesterday.

In addition to the fact that he had OP flying monsters and a horde of shrouded creatures, they were apparently also fearless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Okay, yes. Lets go by what you're saying. They have options (albeit highly ineffective) to deal with stuff. How does that make them OP?

It doesn't, if your opponent is spamming OP crap too. If your opponent is using wraithknights and scatter bikes, well...good game, Tyrranids player. You lose.

Barring that?

Different story, bro.

Lets say that Tyranids spam OP crap. that would explain why the top player at LVO was, what did someone say? 40th something place?

Lets say they don't. Then they really can't compete.

You misread what I said. Reread.

If you lost to that Tyranid army, the Tyranids are the least of your concerns.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
The only thing that doesn't have an easy answer is the flyrant.

And flyrants get spammed.

So. If you can show me that flyrants are underpowered, I'll grant that tyrranids are underpowered.

Dude.

The flyrant is not the codex.

I don't know what more to say to you.

One spammable build does not a good codex make.

Traditio wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
The only thing that doesn't have an easy answer is the flyrant.

And flyrants get spammed.

So. If you can show me that flyrants are underpowered, I'll grant that tyrranids are underpowered.

Guys, just move on to another thread now. He obviously thinks one unit makes a whole codex overpowered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Dude.

The flyrant is not the codex.

I don't know what more to say to you.

Semi-ninja'd. Doh.

 Nameless45 wrote:
No, I'd say the riptide is overpowered. The riptide is part of the Tau codex, but the Tau codex is not its riptide. A codex is more than the value of its single strongest unit.

If a codex has one and precisely one usable unit and that one and precisely one unit consistently gets spammed, then, for all practical purposes, that codex is that unit.

Tyrranids, for all practical intents and purposes, are codex: Flyrants.

Traditio wrote:

 Nameless45 wrote:
No, I'd say the riptide is overpowered. The riptide is part of the Tau codex, but the Tau codex is not its riptide. A codex is more than the value of its single strongest unit.

If a codex has one and precisely one usable unit and that one and precisely one unit consistently gets spammed, then, for all practical purposes, that codex is that unit.

Incorrect. It means that a single unit is overpowered.

Also, Codex: Tau Empire not only has the riptide, but the Stomrsurge, Buffmander, Missilesides, Crisis Suits, and Stealth Suits as good, competitive options. Therefor, the codex has a lot more to offer. There's a reason Tau are considered OP.

Tyranids have.....wait for it.....Flyrants.

Traditio wrote:

 Nameless45 wrote:
No, I'd say the riptide is overpowered. The riptide is part of the Tau codex, but the Tau codex is not its riptide. A codex is more than the value of its single strongest unit.

If a codex has one and precisely one usable unit and that one and precisely one unit consistently gets spammed, then, for all practical purposes, that codex is that unit.

Tyrranids, for all practical intents and purposes, are codex: Flyrants.

Still doesn't make them overpowered. For one since they only have a single unit that is good they are stuck taking mediocre troops to get that one good unit so their list is never 100% good like Tau or Eldar lists are. And second since their list is literally spamming the same unit when they fight an army the CAN deal with flyrants they lose because their list doesn't have any versatility so if their one gimmick is countered they have no back up plan and lose. This keeps them from being overpowered competitively.

Flyrant aren't even OP either... they're just a good unit in an otherwise pretty disappointing codex.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 Nameless45 wrote:
No, I'd say the riptide is overpowered. The riptide is part of the Tau codex, but the Tau codex is not its riptide. A codex is more than the value of its single strongest unit.

If a codex has one and precisely one usable unit and that one and precisely one unit consistently gets spammed, then, for all practical purposes, that codex is that unit.

Incorrect. It means that a single unit is overpowered.

Also, Codex: Tau Empire not only has the riptide, but the Stomrsurge, Buffmander, Missilesides, Crisis Suits, and Stealth Suits as good, competitive options. Therefor, the codex has a lot more to offer. There's a reason Tau are considered OP.

This point has been made previously. This simply displays a misunderstanding of what I've argued earlier. I spoke counterfactually:

Even if the Tau only had riptides, and riptides consistently got spammed, you would be forced to say two things:

1. The Tau codex has just become Codex: Riptides

and

2. Codex: Riptides is overpowered.

Tyranids have.....wait for it.....Flyrants.

And that's consistently what gets spammed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Flyrant aren't even OP either... they're just a good unit in an otherwise pretty disappointing codex.

Please explain to me how Flyrants aren't OP. I would love to hear that.