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Flyrants aren't op because they are only capable of spamming S6 shots.
Take, for example, the mentioned Riptides. It's sporting a 2+ save that makes it incredibly difficult for the flyrant to remove. A flyrant will cost equal points, can fire pretty much the entire game, and most likely will not kill the tide (assuming FnP).

The same is true of many 2+ save units. The flyrant must land and spend a turn on land and then engage. If the Flyrant could charge from flying, it would be OP and tyranids would most likely be a top tier codex.


To sum up;
The other amazing codexes might have 1-2 signature units/combos/formations that make them top tier, but they have other excellent units that plug up the gaps the OP units have. Tyranids don't have units that solve the problems the Flyrant can't solve.

Except one unit can't win the game especially when it especially ones whose strength is to fly around and shoot. If it's doing that it's not scoring an objectives, and this becomes especially painful in Maelstorm missions where the tyranids only hope is to basically table your opponent.

As for dealing with the Flyrant, the best solution i've found is a Dunecrawler with an Icarus Aray. The amount of sky fire that unit can put in the air is staggering and one shot is AP2 so you punch through his armor and another ignores cover so jinking doesn't help.

Akiasura wrote:
Flyrants aren't op because they are only capable of spamming S6 shots.

Take, for example, the mentioned Riptides. It's sporting a 2+ save that makes it incredibly difficult for the flyrant to remove. A flyrant will cost equal points, can fire pretty much the entire game, and most likely will not kill the tide (assuming FnP).

The same is true of many 2+ save units. The flyrant must land and spend a turn on land and then engage. If the Flyrant could charge from flying, it would be OP and tyranids would most likely be a top tier codex.


To sum up;
The other amazing codexes might have 1-2 signature units/combos/formations that make them top tier, but they have other excellent units that plug up the gaps the OP units have. Tyranids don't have units that solve the problems the Flyrant can't solve

That completely ignores the fact that flyrants:

1. Are flyers
2. Have lots of wounds
3. Have high toughness
4. Are psykers
5. Are monstrous creatures and have all of the relevant monstrous creature rules.

Your point essentially comes down to the following:

1. Flyrants aren't all powerful.
2. Other codices have even more OP things.

Sorry, but neither of this is an argument that flyrants are not OP.

So, I have a question. Lets say I run a list with a single Flyrant with no S6 shooting, little gribblies, and some Deep Striking MCs. Ala, my normal list.

Is this list OP?

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, I have a question. Lets say I run a list with a single Flyrant with no S6 shooting, little gribblies, and some Deep Striking MCs. Ala, my normal list.

Is this list OP?

I'll suspend judgment, given that I haven't played your list.

Traditio wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Flyrants aren't op because they are only capable of spamming S6 shots.

Take, for example, the mentioned Riptides. It's sporting a 2+ save that makes it incredibly difficult for the flyrant to remove. A flyrant will cost equal points, can fire pretty much the entire game, and most likely will not kill the tide (assuming FnP).

The same is true of many 2+ save units. The flyrant must land and spend a turn on land and then engage. If the Flyrant could charge from flying, it would be OP and tyranids would most likely be a top tier codex.


To sum up;
The other amazing codexes might have 1-2 signature units/combos/formations that make them top tier, but they have other excellent units that plug up the gaps the OP units have. Tyranids don't have units that solve the problems the Flyrant can't solve

That completely ignores the fact that flyrants:

1. Are flyers
2. Have lots of wounds
3. Have high toughness
4. Are psykers
5. Are monstrous creatures and have all of the relevant monstrous creature rules.

Your point essentially comes down to the following:

1. Flyrants aren't all powerful.
2. Other codices have even more OP things.

Sorry, but neither of this is an argument that flyrants are not OP.

Dude flyrants don't have a high toughness and don't have a lot of wounds. Also being a psyker doesn't mean anything when they are stuck rolling their mediocre codex powers which only like 2 out of 6 are good.

It's an interesting proposition, but I have a suspicion you won't listen to a word I say.

Next time, make your title "I think the tyranids codex isn't overpowered and won't listen to anyone else's opinion".

Then we'll all know what to expect when we come here. I expected you wanted an answer to your question and you've had several.

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, I have a question. Lets say I run a list with a single Flyrant with no S6 shooting, little gribblies, and some Deep Striking MCs. Ala, my normal list.

Is this list OP?

I'll suspend judgment, given that I haven't played your list.

The correct answer is no, given the information from numerous people in this thread. The information that has pointed to Flyrants being the only powerful unit in the codex.

So, if I'm not spamming that powerful, OP unit, my list is not OP.

Therefor Tyranids are not OP. The Hive Tyrant is OP.

Can you not just concede the fact that the Hive Tyrant is OP (Kind of. It's still not super good against other OP options in other books), whereas the Tyranid book as a whole, is not?

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It's an interesting proposition, but I have a suspicion you won't listen to a word I say.

Next time, make your title "I think the tyranids codex isn't overpowered and won't listen to anyone else's opinion".

Then we'll all know what to expect when we come here. I expected you wanted an answer to your question and you've had several.

I fully understand the answer. Tyrranids have lots of units in their codex that are practically unusable.

I fully understand and grant the point.

But that's practically irrelevant, granted that those units, because they are unusable, don't see actual play.

It rings hollow if you tell me that Tyrannids are underpowered because of all of the units that I won't be playing against.

The problem Tradito is that you aren't running an army that can deal with Flyrants. Flyrants have weaknesses that all of the good armies can exploit. It just sounds like you didn't run a proper army against them.

If you want you could post your list and we can tell you what you are doing wrong.

You asked about the codex. We told you. When you say codex, I assume you mean the codex.

Your acceptance of the experience and opinion of a vast majority of people is not my responsibility.

Traditio wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It's an interesting proposition, but I have a suspicion you won't listen to a word I say.

Next time, make your title "I think the tyranids codex isn't overpowered and won't listen to anyone else's opinion".

Then we'll all know what to expect when we come here. I expected you wanted an answer to your question and you've had several.

I fully understand the answer. Tyrranids have lots of units in their codex that are practically unusable.

I fully understand and grant the point.

But that's practically irrelevant, granted that those units, because they are unusable, don't see actual play.

It rings hollow if you tell me that Tyrannids are underpowered because of all of the units that I won't be playing against.

Actually, a lot of Tyranid players use stuff besides Flyrants. The only time you'll see that many Flyrants is in a competitive setting. In which case, bring a competitive list, and you'll do fine against it. If you're trying to fight 5 Flyrants with Cultists and Thousand Sons, yeah, you'll be disappointed.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Dude flyrants don't have a high toughness

Oops. You are correct. I was under the impression that they were T7...I just checked and realized that I was in error.

and don't have a lot of wounds.

They have 4 wounds.

That means, on average, my devastators have to snapshoot somewhere in the ballpark of 24-30 krak missiles just to take one down (not counting feel no pain, if conferred by psyker abilities).

Also being a psyker doesn't mean anything when they are stuck rolling their mediocre codex powers which only like 2 out of 6 are good.

Psychic scream.

The other ability that my opponent was using conferred FNP.

I really don't have much more to say on the issue.

Traditio wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It's an interesting proposition, but I have a suspicion you won't listen to a word I say.

Next time, make your title "I think the tyranids codex isn't overpowered and won't listen to anyone else's opinion".

Then we'll all know what to expect when we come here. I expected you wanted an answer to your question and you've had several.

I fully understand the answer. Tyrranids have lots of units in their codex that are practically unusable.

I fully understand and grant the point.

But that's practically irrelevant, granted that those units, because they are unusable, don't see actual play.

It rings hollow if you tell me that Tyrannids are underpowered because of all of the units that I won't be playing against.

If I recall correctly you play marines ?

You have access to many things, in book and via allies that can put a flyrant down in a respectable way. If you don't take any of that don't complain that your paper meet a scissor

Traditio wrote:

Psychic scream.

The other ability that my opponent was using conferred FNP.

I really don't have much more to say on the issue.

It's not psychic scream. It is much, much worse. If my Flyrant could cast Psychic Scream, I'd be overjoyed.

Traditio wrote:

and don't have a lot of wounds.

They have 4 wounds.

That means, on average, my devastators have to snapshoot somewhere in the ballpark of 24-30 krak missiles just to take one down (not counting feel no pain, if conferred by psyker abilities).

Take Flakk Missiles or the Stalker detachment in support of your Gladius Strike Force.

Actually, now that I think of it...

I was running sternguard. I could have snapshot hellfire rounds at it and wounded on 2s...doh

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Dude flyrants don't have a high toughness

Oops. You are correct. I was under the impression that they were T7...I just checked and realized that I was in error.

and don't have a lot of wounds.

They have 4 wounds.

That means, on average, my devastators have to snapshoot somewhere in the ballpark of 24-30 krak missiles just to take one down.

Also being a psyker doesn't mean anything when they are stuck rolling their mediocre codex powers which only like 2 out of 6 are good.

Psychic scream.

I really don't have much more to say on the issue.

4 wounds is nothing. 4 marines have 4 wounds. Are you saying thats hard to kill?. a flyrant is only 4 marines with T6 in durability. Thats really easy to kill

And psychic scream does (2d6+2)-LD wounds. The average roll for psychic scream is 9. So after Ld on average they only do 0-1 wounds and most of the time they don't do any wounds. And thats only if it succefully casts and successfuly hits

Maybe the OP is confusing the tournament meta vs the casual meta. In casual games, Nids are fine, strong even in some match-ups, without spamming flyrants, brutal if they are spammed. They have lots of decent builds for anti-infantry/light vehicle, fewer builds for anti-heavy armour, and zero builds for anti-SH/GMC, but in a non-competitive meta, infantry heavy armies are pretty common. Casual games are also more horde-friendly, where a truly dedicated Nid collector can cause all sorts of havoc. It almost seems that the OP went into a casual game and faced off against a tournament build, which ALWAYS leads to rants like this. Lord knows we've all been there, done that.

As far as tournaments go, Nids are not all that. Flyrant spam is really all they have, as the truly massive horde builds are simply no good in a timed tournament, and there are too many hard counters to ground pounder Nidzilla.

Traditio wrote:
Actually, now that I think of it...

I was running sternguard. I could have snapshot hellfire rounds at it and wounded on 2s...doh
.

Again, not knowing your own options does not make a fine excuse to cry something is OP.

 CrownAxe wrote:
4 wounds is nothing. 4 marines have 4 wounds. Are you saying thats hard to kill?

If those four marines were T6 and had flying, they would be difficult to kill.

 CrownAxe wrote:
And thats only if it succefully casts and successfuly hits

In it's defense, it is a Nova, and doesn't have to roll to hit. It can also be used while in CC (if, of course, it lives long enough).

Traditio wrote:
Actually, now that I think of it...

I was running sternguard. I could have snapshot hellfire rounds at it and wounded on 2s...doh

My recommendation is to try and hit the Flyrant with Flakk Missiles and force grounding tests. Once it's on the ground, unleash the Hellfire Dakka

 krodarklorr wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
And thats only if it succefully casts and successfuly hits

In it's defense, it is a Nova, and doesn't have to roll to hit. It can also be used while in CC (if, of course, it lives long enough).

What deeply annoyed me about psychic scream is the following:

1. It affected ALL enemy units within 6 inches

and

2. Didn't allow saves of any kind.

At that point, I was like: "Screw it. I quit. You win."

Traditio wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Flyrants aren't op because they are only capable of spamming S6 shots.

Take, for example, the mentioned Riptides. It's sporting a 2+ save that makes it incredibly difficult for the flyrant to remove. A flyrant will cost equal points, can fire pretty much the entire game, and most likely will not kill the tide (assuming FnP).

The same is true of many 2+ save units. The flyrant must land and spend a turn on land and then engage. If the Flyrant could charge from flying, it would be OP and tyranids would most likely be a top tier codex.


To sum up;
The other amazing codexes might have 1-2 signature units/combos/formations that make them top tier, but they have other excellent units that plug up the gaps the OP units have. Tyranids don't have units that solve the problems the Flyrant can't solve

That completely ignores the fact that flyrants:

1. Are flyers

I didn't ignore the fact they are flyers at all. I specifically mentioned that this stops them from charging since if they land, they die.
That is a rule unique to FMCs. So yeah, mentioned. Being a flyer has nothing to do with their offensive output outside of mobility.

Traditio wrote:

2. Have lots of wounds
3. Have high toughness

T isn't bad, but it isn't great (8+ or when it's cheap is when T starts being good. Notice nurgle bikers aren't amazing anymore and are cheaper per wound). Their wound count isn't very impressive either (compare, for example, to a Riptide or a WK).
The only thing that keeps them alive is the 6's to hit and skyfire being very expensive. The second they land, they die to weight of fire (their saves aren't great either).

Traditio wrote:

4. Are psykers
5. Are monstrous creatures and have all of the relevant monstrous creature rules.

If you roll biomancy, psyker can benefit. Some of the other powers are good too, although many are situational since the Flyrant is often ahead of the army and can't buff. They tend not to get a lot of WCs as an army either in most builds.
The MC rules don't matter too much outside of the flying and shooting. Which I did mention.

Traditio wrote:

Your point essentially comes down to the following:

1. Flyrants aren't all powerful.
2. Other codices have even more OP things.

Sorry, but neither of this is an argument that flyrants are not OP.

Sure it is. OP is a relative place.
If Marines had Str 5 shred 30" bolters with Bs 2 against flying MCs, Flyrants would be awful.
Just so, scatbikes and Tau in general have made the Flyrants a lot weaker. Guide on scatbikes allows you to punch holes in flyrants, and markerlights remove the flying advantage.

The bar for OP has moved far away from flyrants. I say this as someone who plays many of the top tier armies and nids.

So your complaining about having an issue with a flying unit while running a list with no skyfire? This really makes your complaints baseless.

 War Kitten wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Actually, now that I think of it...

I was running sternguard. I could have snapshot hellfire rounds at it and wounded on 2s...doh

My recommendation is to try and hit the Flyrant with Flakk Missiles and force grounding tests. Once it's on the ground, unleash the Hellfire Dakka

Flakk missiles are such a waste of points, though. That's an extra 40 points per devastator squad. And at AP4, the flyrant still gets saves.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
So your complaining about having an issue with a flying unit while running a list with no skyfire? This really makes your complaints baseless.

Sounds very much like a problem with the OP, not the unit/codex in question.

Traditio wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
And thats only if it succefully casts and successfuly hits

In it's defense, it is a Nova, and doesn't have to roll to hit. It can also be used while in CC (if, of course, it lives long enough).

What deeply annoyed me about psychic scream is the following:

1. It affected ALL enemy units within 6 inches

and

2. Didn't allow saves of any kind.

At that point, I was like: "Screw it. I quit. You win."

Yes, and it's 2D6+2 - LD. That's severely worse than Psychic Scream. It also allows Invulns, just like Psychic Scream.

Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Actually, now that I think of it...

I was running sternguard. I could have snapshot hellfire rounds at it and wounded on 2s...doh

My recommendation is to try and hit the Flyrant with Flakk Missiles and force grounding tests. Once it's on the ground, unleash the Hellfire Dakka

Flakk missiles are such a waste of points, though. That's an extra 40 points per devastator squad. And at AP4, the flyrant still gets saves.

Take a stalker or Hunter or a dunecrawler or a Stormtalon or a Mortis Comtempter dred, Etc. You have options to deal with flying things.