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and this one
murder horde
5 bloodcrushers
7x5 hounds
herald K juggy lesser reward exalted locus
5 chaos furies
chaos IK of korne dirge caster
D thirster 2 greater reward
i will play at 1700pts tournament

 blackmage wrote:
and this one
murder horde
5 bloodcrushers
7x5 hounds
herald K juggy lesser reward exalted locus
5 chaos furies
chaos IK of korne dirge caster
D thirster 2 greater reward
i will play at 1700pts tournament

List is illegal. Unfortunately, you can't run a Chaos Knight in a Daemonic Incursion detachment. You need to run him in a Daemon CAD.

Also, I'd highly recommend you taking an Exalted Gift in there for the Grimoire.

no i can use that list, tournament rules allow me, you can play the detachment and IK. yes i miswrote, thirster have exalted and greater reward.

Ok, cool.

 blackmage wrote:
and this one
murder horde
5 bloodcrushers
7x5 hounds
herald K juggy lesser reward exalted locus
5 chaos furies
chaos IK of korne dirge caster
D thirster 2 greater reward
i will play at 1700pts tournament

Wouldn't you rather the Grimore on the herald so you have an option to Grimore the D thirster? Then take the Hunter on the crusher unit with a lesser so you still have an Axe. i think having the option to Grimore the thirster is important as that is the Grav magnet and with hunters eye everywhere that Thirster can't rely on 5++

yes but herald without axe is not a very serious treath and i need find 15 points for champion and lesser reward.
edit.... i could find i dont need furies, i do not play the demonic incursions but only the formation so i dont need auxiliary unit
anyway i m still interested in nanavati's list to play with

Aren't you taking the Demonic Incursion for the D Thirster?

List should do well I think. A grimored Knight is a beast.

Okay, so how do you deal with this nonsense then? Just spam the hell out of it and hope for crappy saves on his end? Ignore it ?

Wait... I have the answer... tie it in combat with a culexus. LOLOL They wont kill or touch each other for days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:
yes but herald without axe is not a very serious treath and i need find 15 points for champion and lesser reward.
edit.... i could find i dont need furies, i do not play the demonic incursions but only the formation so i dont need auxiliary unit
anyway i m still interested in nanavati's list to play with

I think a lot of folks are going to try to replicate this list. Look for obj sec spam armies to counter

 blackmage wrote:
yes but herald without axe is not a very serious treath and i need find 15 points for champion and lesser reward.
edit.... i could find i dont need furies, i do not play the demonic incursions but only the formation so i dont need auxiliary unit
anyway i m still interested in nanavati's list to play with

It is not worth losing the benefits of the Daemon Incursion just for a 15-pt Champion + Axe.

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:
Okay, so how do you deal with this nonsense then? Just spam the hell out of it and hope for crappy saves on his end? Ignore it ?

Wait... I have the answer... tie it in combat with a culexus. LOLOL They wont kill or touch each other for days.

When you say "nonsense" do you mean the Knight? If your strategy is to try to tie him up with a Culexus, that's not going to work. Most likely, the Culexus is going to get tied up instead by an 80-pt unit of Khornedogs.

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:
yes but herald without axe is not a very serious treath and i need find 15 points for champion and lesser reward.
edit.... i could find i dont need furies, i do not play the demonic incursions but only the formation so i dont need auxiliary unit
anyway i m still interested in nanavati's list to play with

I think a lot of folks are going to try to replicate this list. Look for obj sec spam armies to counter

I don't really see ObSec-spam to be a counter, unless you're talking about Scatbikes going for the last turn objective-grab. The murderhorde has enough offense to decimate lists like Battle Company.

 jy2 wrote:
If your strategy is to try to tie him up with a Culexus, that's not going to work. Most likely, the Culexus is going to get tied up instead by an 80-pt unit of Khornedogs.

Or be stomped to death no ? Specially against a Khorne Knight that will almost always have 2+ stomps.

Dogs will kill him pretty easily enough. Volume-of-attacks is what will kill the Culexus. With the +1A from the formation, potentially +2A on the charge from Rage and/or Hatred from the Herald, 2 units of 5 dogs should reliably kill off the Culexus in 1 or 2 turns of combat. If not, then charge in a 3rd squad and I guarantee he'll be gone in 1 turn.

Yeah obviously the dogs will dispatch it super fast.
But what I meant was that, even if they were both alone out there on the table, a single Culexus would not tarpit the knight for long.

 RabbitMaster wrote:
But what I meant was that, even if they were both alone out there on the table, a single Culexus would not tarpit the knight for long.

This comes to mind....

 jy2 wrote:


Murderhorde:

Herald - Jugger, Hatred Loci, Exalted Gift (Grimoire)

8x5 Flesh Hounds

Furies

D-Thirster - 2x Greater Gifts, Armor of Scorn

CSM CAD:

Sorcerer

2 Cultists

Khorne Knight - 1st War of Armageddon

Void Shield Generator w/1 Shield

Cool list, looks very fast. Wonder how it would do against Warp spider spam tho, they'll force your hounds to spread out and losing the +1 Invuln from your IK.

Also grim without Fatey can be very risky, I can't tell you how many times I failed grim even with Fatey's reroll. Right now I play a super friend army similar to Aaron Aelong's, 4 IP, DA CSqd with Sammael, and Libby conclave. I'd probably just roll 1 sanctic for each libby to get banishment and focus on either the IK or the Thirster, IPs are particularly good against IKs since servo arms are AP1. Also the star will chew thru multiple units of flesh hounds at a time with force weapons and thunder hammers even if they have 4+ invuln.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 jy2 wrote:


Murderhorde:

Herald - Jugger, Hatred Loci, Exalted Gift (Grimoire)

8x5 Flesh Hounds

Furies

D-Thirster - 2x Greater Gifts, Armor of Scorn

CSM CAD:

Sorcerer

2 Cultists

Khorne Knight - 1st War of Armageddon

Void Shield Generator w/1 Shield

Cool list, looks very fast. Wonder how it would do against Warp spider spam tho, they'll force your hounds to spread out and losing the +1 Invuln from your IK.

Also grim without Fatey can be very risky, I can't tell you how many times I failed grim even with Fatey's reroll. Right now I play a super friend army similar to Aaron Aelong's, 4 IP, DA CSqd with Sammael, and Libby conclave. I'd probably just roll 1 sanctic for each libby to get banishment and focus on either the IK or the Thirster, IPs are particularly good against IKs since servo arms are AP1. Also the star will chew thru multiple units of flesh hounds at a time with force weapons and thunder hammers even if they have 4+ invuln.

Oh, I am well aware of Spider-spam as one of my good friends play it. To me, the Murderhorde is the Daemon version of the Eldar "spider-spam" and I've got a secret weapon. No, it's not the Grimoire, I don't need to Grim to beat them. It's pretty evil. I'll give you a hint....the D-thirster. Heh heh....

Against the Wolfstar, it'll be a combo charge with the Thirster and the Knight. Dogs will get out of the way and play for the objectives. The problem with the Wolfstar is his supporting units are much weaker than that of the Murderhorde. In a deathstar-vs-deathstar matchup, usually the star with the better supporting units will have the advantage.

 jy2 wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 jy2 wrote:


Murderhorde:

Herald - Jugger, Hatred Loci, Exalted Gift (Grimoire)

8x5 Flesh Hounds

Furies

D-Thirster - 2x Greater Gifts, Armor of Scorn

CSM CAD:

Sorcerer

2 Cultists

Khorne Knight - 1st War of Armageddon

Void Shield Generator w/1 Shield

Cool list, looks very fast. Wonder how it would do against Warp spider spam tho, they'll force your hounds to spread out and losing the +1 Invuln from your IK.

Also grim without Fatey can be very risky, I can't tell you how many times I failed grim even with Fatey's reroll. Right now I play a super friend army similar to Aaron Aelong's, 4 IP, DA CSqd with Sammael, and Libby conclave. I'd probably just roll 1 sanctic for each libby to get banishment and focus on either the IK or the Thirster, IPs are particularly good against IKs since servo arms are AP1. Also the star will chew thru multiple units of flesh hounds at a time with force weapons and thunder hammers even if they have 4+ invuln.

Oh, I am well aware of Spider-spam as one of my good friends play it. To me, the Murderhorde is the Daemon version of the Eldar "spider-spam" and I've got a secret weapon. No, it's not the Grimoire, I don't need to Grim to beat them. It's pretty evil. I'll give you a hint....the D-thirster. Heh heh....

Against the Wolfstar, it'll be a combo charge with the Thirster and the Knight. Dogs will get out of the way and play for the objectives. The problem with the Wolfstar is his supporting units are much weaker than that of the Murderhorde. In a deathstar-vs-deathstar matchup, usually the star with the better supporting units will have the advantage.

hehe a lot gonna depend if you can get grim off and how many banishments I can get on them. Also depends on who gets to successfully charge who first, rapid deployment allows me to get +3" on the charge. If its Nova, invis will help a lot if not endurance, all I know is one of them will die if not both (one force axe getting thru will be a dead BT).

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

hehe a lot gonna depend if you can get grim off and how many banishments I can get on them. Also depends on who gets to successfully charge who first, rapid deployment allows me to get +3" on the charge. If its Nova, invis will help a lot if not endurance, all I know is one of them will die if not both (one force axe getting thru will be a dead BT).

Yeah, against that army, I really don't expect the Knight or the BT to survive. But I don't really need them to. All I need is for them to keep the Wolfstar occupied for long enough for my army to deal with all the SW/RW support units and then the wolves will be fighting an uphill battle in terms of Objectives and perhaps the Maelstrom objectives as well. Though how long I can hold them off will depend on how long before the Grimoire fails. This is probably how the battle will play out.

T1 - screen out the wolves with hounds or even cultists (better with the cultists). Cultists get crunched.

T2 - I need for the Grimoire to go off. If it does, you are looking at a combo counter-charge against the star with both the Knight and the BT and most likely at opposite flanks of the star. If the Grim does not go off, then may have to sacrifice 2 dog units to screen them out once again. But I fully expect the Wolfstar to Hit-&-Run out of combat.

T3 - They either re-charge the Thirster or the Knight but probably not both (unless the Grimoire is down). Chances are, they kill the one without the Grimoire. Meanwhile my dogs are spreading out all over the place and going after SW troops.

T4 - They charge the other Daemon unit (whichever survived). They kill him if he doesn't have the Grimoire on or they Hit-&-Run out if they are unable to kill him due to the Grimoire. Basically, my dogs are killing or have already killed the supporting units.

T5 - Now the star only has 1 turn to do whatever it can to all the dogs on the objectives. You'll have to split up. If the Thrister/Knight still lives, then you're going to have to dedicate a unit to lock it in place once again. In any case, even though you've killed my 2 nasties, you're going to have problems getting to the majority of the objectives with just 1 turn left.

BTW, the Sorcerer will be trying to Summon more dogs each and every turn.

At 4++, usually one if not both will die in a combat phase(assuming both grim and couple banishment goes off) base on math. 20 hammers (or servos against IK) and force weapons all with re-rolls to hit(zealot). The command squad can also put the hurt on the BT if I'm lucky.

I usually reserve all my supporting units and keep them away from danger as best possible. If you get the charge first and I don't kill the IK and/or BT, it's automatic HnR 4D6 towards your biggest groups of hound units for a multi-charge on my turn. Also I usually roll one time on malefic for summoning or incursion so one of my Libby can use the empiric channeling on it to get more units If need it. It'll def be a fun match.

Yeah, unfortunately, I think you're really underestimating the offense of a Wolfstar. You're also making the assumption that it will remain as a single unit.

Against an army with literally no viable shooting threats, there's no reason for a Wolfstar to stay blobbed up. Half of them can easily kill a D-Thirster, or a Knight on a failed Grim turn.

So take your 5-turn hypothetical and instead assume there were two Deathstars in two entirely separate areas of board space. Things suddenly look really grim when you double the damage you're receiving in terms of units each turn.

I've played waaaaay too many test games against Aleong to think you're going to get away with out-fighting or out-maneuvering a Wolfstar with a Khorne list. You have one play, and that's close combat. When you come up against an army that just flat-out does it better than you, you have no play except to pray for good dice or hope the other guy is terrible.

I agree the wolfstar can take on most, but the wittling away using psy spell blasts and throwing dog fodder into you, will make you weak enough, or delayed out long enough that you will be hindered to the point of no recovery.

Some things ive seen pointed out in this thread-

1) we can take INQ with psy and fun nades with daemon hammers and neat buffs to deal with daemons

2) take GK libbys,or well anything from that codex. sub a conclave if desired

3) Take stupid amounts of fire.... im talking like 150 firewarriors with 4 etherals in an ageis with 300 kroot infront of them and marker drone blobs.... THAT kind of firepower

4) Have dedicated anti FMC units handy if not in spam

5) Find a way to tarpit the knight for ever.

DJ3 wrote:
Yeah, unfortunately, I think you're really underestimating the offense of a Wolfstar. You're also making the assumption that it will remain as a single unit.

Against an army with literally no viable shooting threats, there's no reason for a Wolfstar to stay blobbed up. Half of them can easily kill a D-Thirster, or a Knight on a failed Grim turn.

So take your 5-turn hypothetical and instead assume there were two Deathstars in two entirely separate areas of board space. Things suddenly look really grim when you double the damage you're receiving in terms of units each turn.

I've played waaaaay too many test games against Aleong to think you're going to get away with out-fighting or out-maneuvering a Wolfstar with a Khorne list. You have one play, and that's close combat. When you come up against an army that just flat-out does it better than you, you have no play except to pray for good dice or hope the other guy is terrible.

Yep, especially now the Iron Priests are ridiculously better with +1WS and W for only 20pts more, one alone can tank a unit of 5 dogs by himself if he get the charge on them first. The DA black knghts can wipe a unit of 5 dogs with shooting + close combat.

So many way things can go bad for him(not in any specific order):
1. Taking out the IK first, they lose the +1 invuln
2. HnR towards his grim Herald unit and wipe them out and maybe another unit in a turn.
3. BT will be naked especially with a few banishments.
4. He fails grim miserably and get multi-charge losing BT and/or IK, and a bunch of fodder units in one turn.
5. With lack of shooting and psychic phase, the DA command squad and Sammael can detach to hunt down his other dogs or shoot down his screening unit and clear way for the Wolfstar.

It's worth noting that I never really landed on the Knight bandwagon to begin with. Daemons are so starved for access to D and/or a counter to other Superheavies that we'll do anything to get it. Seriously, the D-Thirster is an absolute joke compared to any other source of D or anti-superheavy in the game--it's 20 points cheaper than a Wraithknight who, with sword/shield, is better in pretty much every conceivable way. And saying "20 points cheaper" kinda ignores the fact that you have to then invest hundreds of points in just keeping the thing alive (frequently 350 points in the form of Be'lakor).

So when the Knight came out, everyone got excited, because it's a less-terrible source of D than a D-Thirster. The problem is it's even more expensive, and single-Knight lists generally aren't any good, so we're still stuck investing in a defensive option to keep it alive. I was excited just like everyone else, but never could settle on a list that I even felt was good enough for testing--I rushed out and got my hands on a Knight and he's still sitting on the sprues in my closet. I was shocked Nick tried it at LVO, and I really doubt he will keep that list going forward.

The biggest reason, of course, is that now we actually do have access to D. Everybody's best friend Fateweaver got an enormous upgrade and that alone does a ton to keep us from being forced into the situation of drastically overpaying for a potential Superheavy counter. The requirement to dump 600-700 points into the combos required to make a D-Thirster or Chaos Knight work just isn't there any longer, and both should see a serious drop-off as a result.

It's funny, because it actually benefits us the most in what are essentially the opposite matchup than what you'd be planning for, which is MSU/Battle Companies. You can talk all day about whether or not a Chaos Knight or a D-Thirster actually will work in terms of protecting you from Wolfstars and other Superheavies and so on, but the biggest problem is that dumping that many points into two-unit solutions for a problem we're bad at solving absolutely cripples you against MSU. I was still playing a D-Thirster as recently as NOVA and it was super fun watching him crunch up zero-point Rhinos and eventually get nickle and dimed to death by Bolters and Krak Grenades.

I think the Chaos Knights with support is a monster. My friend plays with one in his ITC list and I don't think it has died in the 15+ games he's used him. It's a solo knight list with 2 DPs, Fateweaver and some pinks. The closest it's every been to dying is 1 hp left by me and that's only because I happen to get past its 3++ invuln on the weak side of its shielding with a single melta shot followed by 2 Grav shots that failed the other 3++ facing. His 2++ facing has a few meltas facing it (all got denied).

In a single turn I did 4-5 hull points, but never finished it off. Dirge Caster OP

Don't get me wrong, he has lost a few games here and there but for the most part, he has a good winning record and the Knight always does work. I'd even argue and say it pays for itself every time. :thumpsup:

I'm a big fan of the Chaos Knight being grimmed and leaving it at that. 2++ on 1 facing, and 3++ on the rest is a hilariously strong. That single knight usually kills my other friend's 3 Knight list. Keep in mind it's a Khorne knight so the extra attacks help out tremendously.

i have a list wth kairos be'lakor chaos knight and D thirster, undecided if play a tz DP instead of D thirster to have a versatile unit and 3 more WC

While I haven't played against Aaron's RW/SW deathstar, I have played against Wolfstar before. I think it'll be a fun match between my Daemons and his DA/SW build.

DJ3 wrote:
It's worth noting that I never really landed on the Knight bandwagon to begin with. Daemons are so starved for access to D and/or a counter to other Superheavies that we'll do anything to get it. Seriously, the D-Thirster is an absolute joke compared to any other source of D or anti-superheavy in the game--it's 20 points cheaper than a Wraithknight who, with sword/shield, is better in pretty much every conceivable way. And saying "20 points cheaper" kinda ignores the fact that you have to then invest hundreds of points in just keeping the thing alive (frequently 350 points in the form of Be'lakor).

So when the Knight came out, everyone got excited, because it's a less-terrible source of D than a D-Thirster. The problem is it's even more expensive, and single-Knight lists generally aren't any good, so we're still stuck investing in a defensive option to keep it alive. I was excited just like everyone else, but never could settle on a list that I even felt was good enough for testing--I rushed out and got my hands on a Knight and he's still sitting on the sprues in my closet. I was shocked Nick tried it at LVO, and I really doubt he will keep that list going forward.

The biggest reason, of course, is that now we actually do have access to D. Everybody's best friend Fateweaver got an enormous upgrade and that alone does a ton to keep us from being forced into the situation of drastically overpaying for a potential Superheavy counter. The requirement to dump 600-700 points into the combos required to make a D-Thirster or Chaos Knight work just isn't there any longer, and both should see a serious drop-off as a result.

It's funny, because it actually benefits us the most in what are essentially the opposite matchup than what you'd be planning for, which is MSU/Battle Companies. You can talk all day about whether or not a Chaos Knight or a D-Thirster actually will work in terms of protecting you from Wolfstars and other Superheavies and so on, but the biggest problem is that dumping that many points into two-unit solutions for a problem we're bad at solving absolutely cripples you against MSU. I was still playing a D-Thirster as recently as NOVA and it was super fun watching him crunch up zero-point Rhinos and eventually get nickle and dimed to death by Bolters and Krak Grenades.

I'd have to disagree on the D-thirster being a joke part. I've had really good experiences with him, especially if I can get Gifts like Re-roll Invuln's and/or 4+ FNP. Combine that with the Armor of Scorn and he is an absolute beast. WK's and Imperial Knights are hitting him on 5's naturally due to his high Weapon Skill. Unless the WK or opposing IK get lucky with a 6, my D-thirster usually wrecks them like there's no manana. Sometimes, he has even out-performed my Chaos Knight, though my MVP's usually rotates between the 2.

I've also been able to beat a Demi-company, 2 Battle Companys and also a Double-Battle Company (46 ObSec units!!!) build with my dual-hammer Daemon army. The trick is to pick the battle you can win. In the ITC, it's hard to take Maelstrom from such builds, but I can win via the Primary and the Tertiary Objectives in many cases. Yeah, MSU is a challenge, but it isn't impossible to beat.

Saythings wrote:
I think the Chaos Knights with support is a monster. My friend plays with one in his ITC list and I don't think it has died in the 15+ games he's used him. It's a solo knight list with 2 DPs, Fateweaver and some pinks. The closest it's every been to dying is 1 hp left by me and that's only because I happen to get past its 3++ invuln on the weak side of its shielding with a single melta shot followed by 2 Grav shots that failed the other 3++ facing. His 2++ facing has a few meltas facing it (all got denied).

In a single turn I did 4-5 hull points, but never finished it off. Dirge Caster OP

Don't get me wrong, he has lost a few games here and there but for the most part, he has a good winning record and the Knight always does work. I'd even argue and say it pays for itself every time. :thumpsup:

I'm a big fan of the Chaos Knight being grimmed and leaving it at that. 2++ on 1 facing, and 3++ on the rest is a hilariously strong. That single knight usually kills my other friend's 3 Knight list. Keep in mind it's a Khorne knight so the extra attacks help out tremendously.

That has been my experience as well. The Chaos Knight is an absolute beast and much, much better than any of the Imperial Knights. He's taken the entire firepower of my opponent's army before (including Tau and Battle Company) and still survived. And for only ~460-pts, he's an absolute steal compared to the more expensive Screamerstar or Dronestar.

It's just too bad the other tournament formats (besides the ITC) don't allow him yet.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:
i have a list wth kairos be'lakor chaos knight and D thirster, undecided if play a tz DP instead of D thirster to have a versatile unit and 3 more WC

Personally, I'd go with the D-thirster. The name of the game is Board Control and you can't do it with just 1 unit. You need at least 2.

Fatey and Be'lakor gives you a decent base for WC. That's good enough for you to get off powers that you really need.

yes i had same experience in many matches with D thirster, he can solve problems other pieces can't, like deathstar or some almost unkillable IC, other IK or superheavy, anytime i can i add it in list and never complain about what it did.

Everyone keeps talking about the D-Thirster. Why? I'd rather take a regular one with a Blade of Blood and his starter Axe of Khorne for either instant death or making him a blender against squads. To each their own, I guess.

The regular Thirster is deadly, especially to infantry, but there are 2 types of units that is suffers against. One is heavy vehicles, especially the likes of Imperial Knights. The other are deathstar-type units.

The D-thirster is deadly against all. There isn't any unit that it can't overcome. Hence why it is considered a better threat unit. Everything is threatened by it.

 jy2 wrote:
The D-thirster is deadly against all. There isn't any unit that it can't overcome. Hence why it is considered a better threat unit. Everything is threatened by it.

You can also get past the I1 problem with clever playing. Forcing the WK/Knight to assault through difficult terrain. Using grimoire/warp storm/cursed earth to improve the invuln to a 2+, etc...