Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
The D-thirster is deadly against all. There isn't any unit that it can't overcome. Hence why it is considered a better threat unit. Everything is threatened by it.

You can also get past the I1 problem with clever playing. Forcing the WK/Knight to assault through difficult terrain. Using grimoire/warp storm/cursed earth to improve the invuln to a 2+, etc...

Personnaly, the 2+ grimoire trick never saved me from D weapon. Seems like everybody able to get a 6 those days...
But yeah it can help a lot to mitigate the I1 effect (although forcing the charge in cover is more reliable).

Anyone ever tried 2x D Thirsters instead of a a Knight? Or go all three and let things go super nuts?

Second question, if we are accepting that the Daemon Knight can take the 1st War of Armageddon legacy, does it work on:
Obliterators with Mark of Khorne
Maulerfiends/Forgefiends in a Demonkin Army
Possessed in a Demonkin Army or just Mark of Khorne
Warp Talons as above
Any other silliness I'm not thinking of?

I've got alot of list ideas banging around, but like, are the important parts of the army a D.Thirster, Knight and Fleshhounds, then just whatever you want that works?

 whitedragon wrote:
Anyone ever tried 2x D Thirsters instead of a a Knight? Or go all three and let things go super nuts?

Second question, if we are accepting that the Daemon Knight can take the 1st War of Armageddon legacy, does it work on:
Obliterators with Mark of Khorne
Maulerfiends/Forgefiends in a Demonkin Army
Possessed in a Demonkin Army or just Mark of Khorne
Warp Talons as above
Any other silliness I'm not thinking of?

I've got alot of list ideas banging around, but like, are the important parts of the army a D.Thirster, Knight and Fleshhounds, then just whatever you want that works?

Double D-Thirsters are still good, though they aren't quite as resilient as a D-Thirster + Knight w/Legacy Relic. Running 3 Thirsters could be good, though you will suffer against Grav-alpha-strike armies. 2 Thirsters + Knight is a lot of points that doesn't leave you with much in terms of support units. I'd probably do it at 2K+ games but IMO it isn't a feasible 1850 TAC list.

2nd question, it works on any unit with the Daemon of Khorne rule. Daemons with the Mark of Khorne, better to check with your local TO's interpretation, but I'd so no.

the only thing i m unsure about your list jy2 is pure maelstrom missions, you are not very fast and lack units to score maelstrom points, just thirster knight kairos and be'lakor seems not enough (consider seldom kairos glide to take obj), and with only 11+d6 WC not easy summon things.I like the list but i m afraid by all war convocation played right now, i feel that match ay maelstrom could be a nightmare.

11+d6 WC is easily summoning daemons. You only need 7 dice to have ~77% success rate to cast a summon power and with the extra d6 you should be able to get enough dice for two summoning powers a turn.

 blackmage wrote:
the only thing i m unsure about your list jy2 is pure maelstrom missions, you are not very fast and lack units to score maelstrom points, just thirster knight kairos and be'lakor seems not enough (consider seldom kairos glide to take obj), and with only 11+d6 WC not easy summon things.I like the list but i m afraid by all war convocation played right now, i feel that match ay maelstrom could be a nightmare.

Besides Summoning, I have the board control advantage against War Convo (and most other non-deathstar builds). As my 2 hammer units advance, most armies are forced to retreat. Short of a deathstar or a multiple-IK army, no one wants to take on a 2++ Knight head-on. No one will be going after the middle objectives as long as my 2 hammer units are there.

 CrownAxe wrote:
11+d6 WC is easily summoning daemons. You only need 7 dice to have ~77% success rate to cast a summon power and with the extra d6 you should be able to get enough dice for two summoning powers a turn.

right but you need also at lest WC enough for invisibility (5 dices) or useless play 350pt Be'lakor and to have 2++ knight you also need cursed heart (3dices), you are bit short.

When messing with warp dice and thinking about how many warp dice to use to get a spell off people forget about taking the chances it seems, so many times ill cast inv of 3-4 dice and have some for another spell which will also greatly help my cause. 40k is a dice game and imo I feel its better to take those risks as the potential payoff can be worth so much more. Tossing large amounts of dice already has a risk of perils or even just not getting it, so why waste the WC to make yourself feel better about it? Go big or go home I say, my spell power rule of thumb is typically roll 1-2 extra dice than what the spell requires so:

WC 1- I roll 2-3
WC 2- I roll 3-4
WC 3- I roll 4-5

 blackmage wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
11+d6 WC is easily summoning daemons. You only need 7 dice to have ~77% success rate to cast a summon power and with the extra d6 you should be able to get enough dice for two summoning powers a turn.

right but you need also at lest WC enough for invisibility (5 dices) or useless play 350pt Be'lakor and to have 2++ knight you also need cursed heart (3dices), you are bit short.

You have limited resources (WC). You have to prioritize based on the strengths of your opponent. I can tell you this much. I only get Cursed Earth about 1 in every 3 games so that isn't a big deal. Invisibility is actually over-rated in the ITC. I only really need it against super-shooty armies like Grav-spam Marines, Scatbike Eldar or Tau so against those armies, I will use more dice for Invis. Also, against any army other than Tau or Hunter's Eye Centurions, Shrouding is better as it can give all of my FMC's 2+ cover. Thus, I actually usually go for Shrouding over Invis. Lastly, while Summoning is good, honestly, I don't rely on it all that much. On average, I maybe only Summon 2 or 3 units a game.

BTW, 2++ Knight is from the 1st War of Armageddon Relic + Grimoire. It doesn't need Cursed Earth.

yes but i cant use armageddon relic so i need rely more on cursed earth


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Solosam47 wrote:
When messing with warp dice and thinking about how many warp dice to use to get a spell off people forget about taking the chances it seems, so many times ill cast inv of 3-4 dice and have some for another spell which will also greatly help my cause. 40k is a dice game and imo I feel its better to take those risks as the potential payoff can be worth so much more. Tossing large amounts of dice already has a risk of perils or even just not getting it, so why waste the WC to make yourself feel better about it? Go big or go home I say, my spell power rule of thumb is typically roll 1-2 extra dice than what the spell requires so:

WC 1- I roll 2-3
WC 2- I roll 3-4
WC 3- I roll 4-5

well if you rely on cast each turn vital 3 WC powers with 4 dice.....good luck you must be very lucky , in some matches you cant risk so much, some powers have to be casted, and less dice you use lead easy way for your opponent to dispel, fail an invisibility against scat bike eldar and usually that lead lost one unit.

 blackmage wrote:
yes but i cant use armageddon relic so i need rely more on cursed earth

Fair enough.

A Chaos Knight with 2++/3++ and re-roll 1's is still silly strong.

 RabbitMaster wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
The D-thirster is deadly against all. There isn't any unit that it can't overcome. Hence why it is considered a better threat unit. Everything is threatened by it.

You can also get past the I1 problem with clever playing. Forcing the WK/Knight to assault through difficult terrain. Using grimoire/warp storm/cursed earth to improve the invuln to a 2+, etc...

Personnaly, the 2+ grimoire trick never saved me from D weapon. Seems like everybody able to get a 6 those days...
But yeah it can help a lot to mitigate the I1 effect (although forcing the charge in cover is more reliable).

Under ITC rules, since a D 6 result is just HPs. could you take the invulnerable save vs it? That makes Chaos way stronger. Even if Tzeentch re-roll is nerfed.

 Virules wrote:

 RabbitMaster wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
The D-thirster is deadly against all. There isn't any unit that it can't overcome. Hence why it is considered a better threat unit. Everything is threatened by it.

You can also get past the I1 problem with clever playing. Forcing the WK/Knight to assault through difficult terrain. Using grimoire/warp storm/cursed earth to improve the invuln to a 2+, etc...

Personnaly, the 2+ grimoire trick never saved me from D weapon. Seems like everybody able to get a 6 those days...
But yeah it can help a lot to mitigate the I1 effect (although forcing the charge in cover is more reliable).

Under ITC rules, since a D 6 result is just HPs. could you take the invulnerable save vs it? That makes Chaos way stronger. Even if Tzeentch re-roll is nerfed.

No you cannot. A D result of a 6 ignores all saves, as well as FNP and Reanimation Protocols.

 blackmage wrote:
yes but i cant use armageddon relic so i need rely more on cursed earth


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Solosam47 wrote:
When messing with warp dice and thinking about how many warp dice to use to get a spell off people forget about taking the chances it seems, so many times ill cast inv of 3-4 dice and have some for another spell which will also greatly help my cause. 40k is a dice game and imo I feel its better to take those risks as the potential payoff can be worth so much more. Tossing large amounts of dice already has a risk of perils or even just not getting it, so why waste the WC to make yourself feel better about it? Go big or go home I say, my spell power rule of thumb is typically roll 1-2 extra dice than what the spell requires so:

WC 1- I roll 2-3
WC 2- I roll 3-4
WC 3- I roll 4-5

well if you rely on cast each turn vital 3 WC powers with 4 dice.....good luck you must be very lucky , in some matches you cant risk so much, some powers have to be casted, and less dice you use lead easy way for your opponent to dispel, fail an invisibility against scat bike eldar and usually that lead lost one unit.

The thing is that even though you throw more dice at it you can still fail, Im not super lucky, I fell an average amount of times but I have dice to cast other spells as back up. If your army relies on one spell or it withers that bad then your list isnt as good as you think. During a game I tend to avoid situations where failing a spell is win or loss of a game. With daemons especially, you need to be a turn or two ahead of your opponent, you need to be able to throw dice quickly and have a plan in case your inv or grim dont go off.

I guess in the end though its a point of view and a play style. I play heavy tzeentch and Nurgle so I have 20+ warpcharges, Jinking flyers for 2+, and typically not getting into CC unless with nurgle princes or a GUO who can take a few hits.

Well maybe if you used enough dice to cast a power you wouldn't be so unlucky. 4 dice to cast a WC3 power only has a 31% chance to succeed

is not failing a spell just win-loss a game, is just a no sense play psionic and then rely just on pure luck, better play without then


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Well maybe if you used enough dice to cast a power you wouldn't be so unlucky. 4 dice to cast a WC3 power only has a 31% chance to succeed

yes is what i want say

 Solosam47 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
yes but i cant use armageddon relic so i need rely more on cursed earth


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Solosam47 wrote:
When messing with warp dice and thinking about how many warp dice to use to get a spell off people forget about taking the chances it seems, so many times ill cast inv of 3-4 dice and have some for another spell which will also greatly help my cause. 40k is a dice game and imo I feel its better to take those risks as the potential payoff can be worth so much more. Tossing large amounts of dice already has a risk of perils or even just not getting it, so why waste the WC to make yourself feel better about it? Go big or go home I say, my spell power rule of thumb is typically roll 1-2 extra dice than what the spell requires so:

WC 1- I roll 2-3
WC 2- I roll 3-4
WC 3- I roll 4-5

well if you rely on cast each turn vital 3 WC powers with 4 dice.....good luck you must be very lucky , in some matches you cant risk so much, some powers have to be casted, and less dice you use lead easy way for your opponent to dispel, fail an invisibility against scat bike eldar and usually that lead lost one unit.

The thing is that even though you throw more dice at it you can still fail, Im not super lucky, I fell an average amount of times but I have dice to cast other spells as back up. If your army relies on one spell or it withers that bad then your list isnt as good as you think. During a game I tend to avoid situations where failing a spell is win or loss of a game. With daemons especially, you need to be a turn or two ahead of your opponent, you need to be able to throw dice quickly and have a plan in case your inv or grim dont go off.

I guess in the end though its a point of view and a play style. I play heavy tzeentch and Nurgle so I have 20+ warpcharges, Jinking flyers for 2+, and typically not getting into CC unless with nurgle princes or a GUO who can take a few hits.

It all depends on the chances of success that you want to have. If you don't care about the power, sure cast it on the cheap. Especially if you don't have anything else to do and want to keep your risk of perils as low as possible. But if you WANT to cast the power, you should go for at LEAST a 75 percent success rate, mathematically speaking. I tend to aim for 90% success chance when I really want a power. Fatey helps make up the difference usually

In the end, the "luck" averages out. Play to the dice odds and you'll win more games than you lose