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I think it's pretty funny that people get all worked up about 400 points necron warriors being needed to kill a 300 point model in one turn. What kind of power do you expect? Table your opponent in one turn or his army is op?

Some people are upset that Space Marines can't win with a single shot.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Traditio wrote:

It would take 135 gauss shots, on average, to kill a wraithknight.

And no amount of boltgun shots will kill a wraithknight.

Yes, I know it's ridiculous. Yes, wraithknights need to be nerfed.

Feth wraithknights.

So, don't use bolters to kill the Wraithknight?

That's my exact thinking in this thread. Bunch of people getting butt hurt because they cant get a square peg down a round hole. Might as well get mad that guardsmen are nearly twice the price of a rhino and saying its OP because they cant hurt it.

Stalker + heavy destroyers, lascannons that miss 1/36 of the time combo'd with wraiths, or even scarabs, or lychguard or.... Seriously how is this a problem? Oh wait, its dakka, if its eldar its unstoppable and everyone wants their 3rd ed army to win every game. Please. Wraithknights are a point sink, all they do is slap around bad players and soak up bullets against medium generals and are a 1 turn dead against any general worth their salt.

Make your army with these 4 things in mind and shut your pie holes.
1. Ignore cover
2. Kill 1 or more wraithknight of Imp knight in a single turn
3. Counter/Ignore invisibility
4. Mobile Objective taking.

There, fix you're busted ass armies.

 Ravenous D wrote:

That's my exact thinking in this thread. Bunch of people getting butt hurt because they cant get a square peg down a round hole. Might as well get mad that guardsmen are nearly twice the price of a rhino and saying its OP because they cant hurt it.

Stalker + heavy destroyers, lascannons that miss 1/36 of the time combo'd with wraiths, or even scarabs, or lychguard or.... Seriously how is this a problem? Oh wait, its dakka, if its eldar its unstoppable and everyone wants their 3rd ed army to win every game. Please. Wraithknights are a point sink, all they do is slap around bad players and soak up bullets against medium generals and are a 1 turn dead against any general worth their salt.

Make your army with these 4 things in mind and shut your pie holes.
1. Ignore cover
2. Kill 1 or more wraithknight of Imp knight in a single turn
3. Counter/Ignore invisibility
4. Mobile Objective taking.

There, fix you're busted ass armies.

pm713 wrote:
Some people are upset that Space Marines can't win with a single shot.

Bolters should have rending.
Killing a WK is not what you should do in the first place. Just by chance.

 wuestenfux wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Some people are upset that Space Marines can't win with a single shot.

Bolters should have rending.
Killing a WK is not what you should do in the first place. Just by chance.

Wow.. they really shouldn't.. not with all your chapter tactics and combat doctrines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe... maybe.. a way to give them pseudo rending.. but they would need some rework overall if that change was made.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

So, don't use bolters to kill the Wraithknight?

LOL, a bolter can't even glance a killa kan.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Some people are upset that Space Marines can't win with a single shot.

Bolters should have rending.
Killing a WK is not what you should do in the first place. Just by chance.

Wow.. they really shouldn't.. not with all your chapter tactics and combat doctrines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe... maybe.. a way to give them pseudo rending.. but they would need some rework overall if that change was made.

Bolters don't need a way to hurt it. Lascannons need a way to be effective.

Vehicles need work though too.. maybe we just need an 8th edition

Grizzyzz wrote:So yeah.. next to D weapons, space marine players have the best anti GMC/MC weapon in the game.. so there should be near no complaints

I shouldn't have to buy grav weapons (which are 1. relatively new on the scene and 2. EXTREMELY short range) to deal with a wraithknight. Krak missiles are the standard anti-tank weapon for the Imperium. How expensive a wraithknight is should be relative to how many krak missiles I need to kill it.

Furthermore, consider that the krak missile is pretty much what should be considered "on par" against a wraithknight. It wounds on 4s and is just enough to strip a wraithknight's armor saves.

Thus, I repeat: how expensive a wraithknight is should be relative to how many krak missiles I need to kill it.

390 points wraithknights (without upgrades): that, and nothing less, is fair.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:Bolters don't need a way to hurt it. Lascannons need a way to be effective.

The problem would be solved if wraithknights were 400 points or more without upgrades. Then it would turn into a matter of: "Ok. I have my 12 krak missile launchers and you have your 1 wraithknight. How many devastator squads can you take down in a turn, Eldar player?"

Traditio wrote:

Grizzyzz wrote:So yeah.. next to D weapons, space marine players have the best anti GMC/MC weapon in the game.. so there should be near no complaints

I shouldn't have to buy grav weapons (which are 1. relatively new on the scene and 2. EXTREMELY short range) to deal with a wraithknight. Krak missiles are the standard anti-tank weapon for the Imperium. How expensive a wraithknight is should be relative to how many krak missiles I need to kill it.

Furthermore, consider that the krak missile is pretty much what should be considered "on par" against a wraithknight. It wounds on 4s and is just enough to strip a wraithknight's armor saves.

Thus, I repeat: how expensive a wraithknight is should be relative to how many krak missiles I need to kill it.

Grav centurians have been around for a while now.. and why would you pay for something that is not as good. I completely understand the difference between playing a casual game and playing in a tournament.. but either way.. everything a Krak missle can do, a grav weapon is capable of. Additionally you said it right there.. "standard anti-tank weapon".. well Wraithknights are from from vehicles. Grav is the marine answer to MC/GMC.

a Centurian squad with a librarian is the same cost (possibly cheaper) then a wraithknight and averagely has the ability to take it out in one pass..

Martel732 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Some people are upset that Space Marines can't win with a single shot.

Bolters should have rending.
Killing a WK is not what you should do in the first place. Just by chance.

Wow.. they really shouldn't.. not with all your chapter tactics and combat doctrines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe... maybe.. a way to give them pseudo rending.. but they would need some rework overall if that change was made.

Bolters don't need a way to hurt it. Lascannons need a way to be effective.

They are..... 3 followed by 3s, 18 lascannon shots drop a wraithknight. It happens a lot. Or you know, take grav and quit your bitchin. The game has changed. Deal with it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Grizzyzz wrote:So yeah.. next to D weapons, space marine players have the best anti GMC/MC weapon in the game.. so there should be near no complaints

I shouldn't have to buy grav weapons (which are 1. relatively new on the scene and 2. EXTREMELY short range) to deal with a wraithknight. Krak missiles are the standard anti-tank weapon for the Imperium. How expensive a wraithknight is should be relative to how many krak missiles I need to kill it.

Furthermore, consider that the krak missile is pretty much what should be considered "on par" against a wraithknight. It wounds on 4s and is just enough to strip a wraithknight's armor saves.

Thus, I repeat: how expensive a wraithknight is should be relative to how many krak missiles I need to kill it.

Grav centurians have been around for a while now.. and why would you pay for something that is not as good. I completely understand the difference between playing a casual game and playing in a tournament.. but either way.. everything a Krak missle can do, a grav weapon is capable of. Additionally you said it right there.. "standard anti-tank weapon".. well Wraithknights are from from vehicles. Grav is the marine answer to MC/GMC.

a Centurian squad with a librarian is the same cost (possibly cheaper) then a wraithknight and averagely has the ability to take it out in one pass..

Its really strange, that most people are totally fine with grav centurions and don't think they are over powered in the slightest. My buddy brings a Quad Centstar list and stomps people into the dirt and they don't say a word. Bring eldar and they piss and moan for ages.

Ravenous D wrote:They are..... 3 followed by 3s, 18 lascannon shots drop a wraithknight. It happens a lot. Or you know, take grav and quit your bitchin. The game has changed. Deal with it.

Let's do the math.

Of all shots fired by a devastator marine with a lascannon, (2X3 (to hit) X 2/3 (to wound) X 2/3 (FNP) X 1/6 (6 wounds)) (8/162 = 4/81) should deal a lethal blow to a wraithknight. It would take slightly more than 20 lascannon shots, statistically speaking, to kill a wraithknight. A devastator squad with 4 lascannons is 150 points. To deal with the wraithknight in roughly two turns, you would need 3 devastator squads with the following composition:

2 X 5 man devastator squad with 4 lascannons (150 points each; a total of 300 points)
1 X 5 man devastator squad with 2 lascannons (110 points).

Once again, we arrive to a wraithknight that, in all justice, should cost roughly 400 points.

In point of fact, however, the latter composition for a devastator squad is just silly. So, in point of fact, we we are talking about 450 points worth of devastators to deal with a 295 point unit.

And that's assuming that the wraithknight doesn't have a scatter shield. If he has a scatter shield, even more is required to take him down.

Sorry. Late to game nvmnd

Grizzyzz wrote:Grav centurians have been around for a while now.

They've been around since 6th edition. I shouldn't have to buy the bright, expensive new shiny when there are already standard codex options which traditionally have been intended to fill that role.

The points cost for a wraithknight should be weighted against what has traditionally been the appropriate unit designed to deal with that kind of threat, which is, of course, a devastator marine with either a lascannon or a missile launcher.

If the wraithknight were appropriately priced, we wouldn't be having this discussion. As I said:

400 point wraithknight. Nothing substantially less is fair. It should probably cost more.

everything a Krak missle can do, a grav weapon is capable of.

No, a grav weapon isn't.

1. It is not effective vs. vehicles.
2. It is not effective vs. high toughness, low armor save non-vehicles.
3. It is not effective at ranges beyond 24 inches.

Grav is the marine answer to MC/GMC.

Sternguard and anti-tank weapons traditionally have been the answer to MCs.

And rightfully so. Tyrannic war veterans, anyone?

Traditio wrote:

390 points wraithknights (without upgrades): that, and nothing less, is fair.

You clearly have very little experience with the game since that's how absolutely nothing works.

Things cost more than they kill in one shot. That's why the game lasts 5-7 turns and isn't automatically one on the first player's first turn.

Ravenous D wrote:Its really strange, that most people are totally fine with grav centurions and don't think they are over powered in the slightest. My buddy brings a Quad Centstar list and stomps people into the dirt and they don't say a word. Bring eldar and they piss and moan for ages.

Centurions are T5 with 2 wounds and a 2+ armor save. Furthermore, they cost 55 pm without any upgrades.

Nuff said.

I'm pretty sure that there's not a single IG player in the game who is complaining about OP grav centurions.

Traditio wrote:

The problem would be solved if wraithknights were 400 points or more without upgrades. Then it would turn into a matter of: "Ok. I have my 12 krak missile launchers and you have your 1 wraithknight. How many devastator squads can you take down in a turn, Eldar player?"

By your very own logic, a 400 point Wraith knight should be able to kill 400 points worth of krak missile devastators in one turn of shooting.

It takes just as many krak missiles to kill a Land Raider, better raise them to 400 points too.

It takes 1260 points worth of Ork Boyz with shootas to kill 10 Tactical Marines. So I guess a tactical marine is worth 126 points?

Ok, I'm done making fun of your insipid reasoning. You're just incorrect about how things should and do work.

DarknessEternal wrote:Things cost more than they kill in one shot. That's why the game lasts 5-7 turns and isn't automatically one on the first player's first turn.

You clearly misread what I said. I didn't say anything about "one shot." My point is that it would take 3 devastator squads with either lascannons or missile launchers to provide an effective answer to wraithknights. Therefore, wraithknights should cost as much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:By your very own logic, a 400 point Wraith knight should be able to kill 400 points worth of krak missile devastators in one turn of shooting.

In two turns of shooting. And, in point of fact, if you take assaults into account, they probably can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, DE, you are failing to note this key fact:

The ML or Lascannon devastator squads are realistically the only thing in my army that can be expected to deal with a wraithknight effectively.

Practically anything can deal with my devastator squads.

Therefore, wraithknights should cost even MORE!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:It takes 1260 points worth of Ork Boyz with shootas to kill 10 Tactical Marines.

You are incorrect. Assuming that the boys are charging in assault, a single boy gets 4 S4 attacks on the charge.

Of such sets of attacks, (4/1 (number of attacks) X (1/2) (to hit) X 1/2 (to wound) X 1/3 (armor save) (a total of 4/12 or 1/3)) can be expected to take out a tactical marine. 3 boys reliably should be able to take out the marine in a single round of combat. And note, it doesn't take any more boys than that to take out a marine even if he's armed with a plasma cannon.

Hello,
Just a though can a psyker with the force power activ kill the wraithknight in one hit with for exemple iron hand to help him a bit?

taetrius67 wrote:
Hello,
Just a though can a psyker with the force power activ kill the wraithknight in one hit with for exemple iron hand to help him a bit?

No. Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures can't be killed via the Instant Death rule. Instead of removing the model from play, you just deal additional wounds.

 Flanker wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 Whereswaldo wrote:
so 243 regular gauss shots at it is the consensus?

It's not just the concensus. It's the math!

Note, of course, that these are just the laws of averages.

It's possible for a guass weapon to kill a wraithknight in 6 shots. If you only roll 6s and your opponent only rolls 1s, the wraithknight dies very quickly.

And what's the mathematical possibility of THAT?

If the chance to get a wound is 2/3*1/6*1/3*2/3 = 2/81 (based on a previous post, I didn't figure that out myself) then the chance of getting 6 wounds in a row is (2/81)^6, which is 0.00000002266%.

The chance of killing it with...
50 shots is 0.142%
100 shots is 3.8%
200 shots is 37.3%
300 shots is 75.2%
400 shots is 93.1%
500 shots is 98.5%

So if you shoot it 100 times each turn, you'll probably kill it by turn 3, turn 2 if you're lucky, turn 4 if you're unlucky, turn 5 if you're very unlucky, turn 6+ if you're very very unlucky

Traditio wrote:


No, a grav weapon isn't.

1. It is not effective vs. vehicles.
2. It is not effective vs. high toughness, low armor save non-vehicles.
3. It is not effective at ranges beyond 24 inches.

Gonna have to disagree there.

1. A single result of a 6 immobilises a vehicle and strips a HP. A 2nd 6 takes two hull points, since an Immobilise result on an already Immobilised vehicle causes an extra HP. Two 6's wreck any 3HP vehicle without saves in the game - doesn't matter if you're a Leman Russ or a Trukk. A single 6 cripples almost every vehicle by immobilising it. Grav Cannons even come with Grav-Amps which let you re-roll for that 6. Grav Cannons with Grav-Amps are very effective against non-super heavy vehicles.

2. What are all these high-toughness, low armour save non-vehicles? Keepers of Secrets and Great Unclean Ones? Not exactly the most serious of threats... Bloodthirsters all have 3+ Armour Saves, though Lords of Change admittedly might be a problem if they avoided taking the 3+ Greater Reward. Demon Princes might also deliberately avoid buying a 3+ save, though that would be tailoring specifically to counter Grav-Spam (and are only T5 anyway). Tyranid MC's all have at least a 4+, with most of them having a 3+. AdMech Kastelans have a 3+, Dark Eldar Talos have a 3+ and Necron C'Tans have a 4+ (despite also having a 4++ lol). The biggest threat I can think of would be Nurgle Spawn, being T6 with no armour save. What am I missing?

3. Marines have Drop Pods, which makes range restrictions meaningless. Or you can ally Draigo in for guaranteed Gate of Infinity, who also doubles as an extremely effective tank.

This is the problem with Grav weapons. They are extremely effective at what they do (killing 2+/3+ models), whilst still being adequate at dealing with 4+ and even 5+ models because their ROF combined with the Grav-Amp re-rolls means you still push a reasonable amount of wounds through, all the while not caring a bit about the Toughness of a model. Whilst say a Heavy Bolter might be better at killing 4+ models, it falls well short on 2+ or 3+ or T6+. Meanwhile the Grav Cannon still does pretty good against 4+ but is way more effective against better saves and higher Toughness. Even against vehicles, they can through their ROF put enough Immobilise results out (again, not caring about the Armour Value) to question why you would ever want to bother with Missile Launchers. I think you're arguing the same thing here - in that you shouldn't have to use Grav - but unfortunately that's just the way the game is and goes well beyond the specific issue of Wraithknights being undercosted.

Grav guns in particular are only cost effective vs expensive vehicles. Grav cannons are much more effective against a wider point range.

Drop pods back fire quite frequently and aren't the "win" button everyone seems to think. Being stranded on foot after the drop can be very bad indeed and you have to purchase empty pods or piecemeal your force. The Draigo cheese is far scarier.

Lol, an Eldar player saying anything is too good.

Grav weapons cannot kill low armor armies for feth.

IG, daemons, and orks all excel against grav spam. Grav does not work well against vehicles with a save.

The best way to beat the WK is to take a bigger model OR tie it up with some kind of fearless/stubborn blob like khorne dogs, green tide, scout sentinals, or assault marines. (Bikes cost too much)

 sfshilo wrote:
Lol, an Eldar player saying anything is too good.

Grav weapons cannot kill low armor armies for feth.

IG, daemons, and orks all excel against grav spam. Grav does not work well against vehicles with a save.

The best way to beat the WK is to take a bigger model OR tie it up with some kind of fearless/stubborn blob like khorne dogs, green tide, scout sentinals, or assault marines. (Bikes cost too much)

Grav works well against anything with an armour save of 4+ or lower. The higher values (5+/6+) can be put down by the standard firearms (bolters/gauss) of the army, so grav really doesn't need to be good at killing them.

Also, I don't think assault marines would be a good fodder unit for a WK - though IG max platoons with a Priest is very good.

GoonBandito wrote:Gonna have to disagree there.

1. A single result of a 6 immobilises a vehicle and strips a HP. A 2nd 6 takes two hull points, since an Immobilise result on an already Immobilised vehicle causes an extra HP. Two 6's wreck any 3HP vehicle without saves in the game - doesn't matter if you're a Leman Russ or a Trukk. A single 6 cripples almost every vehicle by immobilising it. Grav Cannons even come with Grav-Amps which let you re-roll for that 6. Grav Cannons with Grav-Amps are very effective against non-super heavy vehicles.

Again, they are 24 inch max range, and that's if and only if you are taking a grav cannon.

3. Marines have Drop Pods, which makes range restrictions meaningless. Or you can ally Draigo in for guaranteed Gate of Infinity, who also doubles as an extremely effective tank.

I have two points to make about this:

1. I shouldn't have to run grav cannons when there are other codex options which deal with the same thing. I shouldn't be forced to run a specific kind of build. That's what the points system is supposed to effect. If you are sitting here telling me that I have to run grav cannons in drop pods, then GW have failed at their jobs of balancing the game. Something is awry.

2. Grav centurions can't take drop pods. To take those drop pods, I'd have to put regular devastators with grav cannons and amps. That squad is going to cost 210 points plus the 35 points for the drop pod (unless GSF with two demicompanies). And unless I specifically took the formation that allows my devastators relentless when they enter the game via drop pods, those grav cannons are going to be firing 3 rounds a piece at 12 inch range. Not to mention, of course, that every single one of those devastators is probably going to die on my opponent's next turn.

Don't get me wrong, I fully admit that grav weapons are overpowered and need a major nerf (though I still insist that the major problem with grav weapons is that they can go on bikes; grav guns on bikes is what's really effective). But then, so do a lot of things in this game, including wraithknights.

Grav guns on bikes are not good compared to grav cannons. I've been trying to get by with them, and they don't cut it.

Martel732 wrote:
Grav guns on bikes are not good compared to grav cannons. I've been trying to get by with them, and they don't cut it.

It's because you're playing blood angels.

Grav bike spam in either a White Scars bike army or a Ravenwing bike army is extremely effective vs. MEQs and TEQs.

Why can't you put Centurions in pods?