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They have no better firepower than BA. I've played against those lists. Because they have to get with 18" and don't reroll wounds, a LOT more can go wrong for them. I'll deal with them any day of the week over LOLscatterbikes or ignore cover ion accelerators.

pm713 wrote:
Why can't you put Centurions in pods?

They can only take land raiders as a dedicated transport option.

Come to think of it, I have no clue if you can technically buy a drop pod as a FA slot and put centurions in it.

Ruleswise, I'm not sure how that works.

That said, if you are running formations, that's not a valid in-formation option.

You can buy a drop pod and put them in.

You can buy them as FA and put them in there. For formations can't you use an Unbound pod?

pm713 wrote:
You can buy them as FA and put them in there.

If you're going either unbound or playing a CAD.

For formations can't you use an Unbound pod?

I suppose technically you can?

Traditio wrote:

 Whereswaldo wrote:
How many regular gauss shots to kill a wraith knight, no bonuses from preferred enemy / stalker +1 BS bubble.

Thanks

Assuming 3+ armor and no FNP:

For a Necron warrior, one out of (2/3 (to hit roll) X 1/6 (to wound roll) X 1/3 (3+ armor save) X 1/5 (5 wounds)) shot would deal a lethal shot to a wraithknight. This comes out to 2/270 or 1/135.

It would take 135 gauss shots, on average, to kill a wraithknight.

And no amount of boltgun shots will kill a wraithknight.

Yes, I know it's ridiculous. Yes, wraithknights need to be nerfed.

Feth wraithknights.

Its almost as if Monstrous Creatures can't be slain easily by small arms fire.
I like Eldar hate as much as anybody, but complaining that its too hard to kill a monstrous creature with small arms is kind of silly. I mean, you have heavy weapons and grav, right? That's what they are for.


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 JimOnMars wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

So, don't use bolters to kill the Wraithknight?

LOL, a bolter can't even glance a killa kan.

Don't they have armor 10? I'm pretty sure you can.

Traditio believes he shouldn't have to use grav.

Martel732 wrote:


Bolters don't need a way to hurt it. Lascannons need a way to be effective.

Lascannons are fine.
Its just they are outclassed by weapons that can strip HP quickly. The problem isn't the lascannon, its the poorly thought out vehicle rules.


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pm713 wrote:
Traditio believes he shouldn't have to use grav.

Well that's silly. Isn't the function of a grav weapon to kill MCs? That's like refusing to use a hammer to beat in a nail, and insist on using your fist; It could work, but it would be very painful and time consuming.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


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pm713 wrote:
Traditio believes he shouldn't have to use grav.

Well that's silly. Isn't the function of a grav weapon to kill MCs? That's like refusing to use a hammer to beat in a nail, and insist on using your fist; It could work, but it would be very painful and time consuming.

I know....I know.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Well that's silly. Isn't the function of a grav weapon to kill MCs? That's like refusing to use a hammer to beat in a nail, and insist on using your fist; It could work, but it would be very painful and time consuming.

MCs predate the existence of grav weapons. As I've insisted previously, for the space marines codex, the way of dealing with MCs prior to grav weapons, was:

1. Sternguard hellfire ammunition
2. Sniper rifles
3. Anti-tank weapons.

Aside from grav, the only effective way to deal with a GMC is with anti-tank weapons? Then wraithknights should be priced accordingly.

ThatGuyFromThatPlace wrote:
Do some math hammer and find out how many Loota shots it takes to kill a wraithknight (S7 AP4 D3 shots) 14ppm

Loota: 1/3 chance to hit, 1/3 chance to wound.
Wraithknight: 2/3 chance to save with armour, 1/3 chance to save with FnP.
Overall 2/81 chance to wound (or about 1/40), so about 240 shots needed to bring down a wraithknight. If we assume the average for the d3 shots is 2 you therefore need 120 lootas to take a wraithknight down in one turn, 60 lootas for 2 turns, 30 lootas for 3 turns and so on.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Bolters don't need a way to hurt it. Lascannons need a way to be effective.

Lascannons are fine.
Its just they are outclassed by weapons that can strip HP quickly. The problem isn't the lascannon, its the poorly thought out vehicle rules.


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pm713 wrote:
Traditio believes he shouldn't have to use grav.

Well that's silly. Isn't the function of a grav weapon to kill MCs? That's like refusing to use a hammer to beat in a nail, and insist on using your fist; It could work, but it would be very painful and time consuming.

Lascannons are not fine. Low ROF, MCs easily get cover, vehicle damage table now sucks for AP2. And a lot of T5+ units that are no longer doubled out by the lascannon.

Martel732 wrote:Lascannons are not fine. Low ROF, MCs easily get cover, vehicle damage table now sucks for AP2. And a lot of T5+ units that are no longer doubled out by the lascannon.

I agree. However, the solution is not to buff Lascannons. The solution is to nerf the things that you'd need a lascannon to deal with.

ENOUGH is ENOUGH! I'm TIRED of this MOTHER FETHING power creep in this MOTHER FETHING game!

You can't stop the power creep without a total rewrite. That ship has already sailed. Low ROF weapons need a buff. Period. And vehicles don't need anymore nerfs.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't stop the power creep without a total rewrite.

Define "total rewrite." For starters, how about nerfing grav weapons, reducing the number of wounds on monstrous creatures, and removing the Gargantuan Monstrous Creature rules from the CRB entirely?

Not good enough. Lascannons are a fail against Rhinos now. Go do the math.

I think your approach is all wrong. Things like lascannons and hammerhead railguns should be very lethal to big things. As in multiple wounds, no FNP rolls, etc.

If lascannons could first strike centurions and one shot them, then the dreaded grav cannon would have an actual counter. You could give heavy weapon teams in all books upgrades like "thermal targeting" to ignore invisibility.

Total rewrite. Elite infantry and big monsters made of flesh should die when hit by anti-tank fire.

Martel732 wrote:
Not good enough. Lascannons are a fail against Rhinos now. Go do the math.

I think your approach is all wrong. Things like lascannons and hammerhead railguns should be very lethal to big things. As in multiple wounds, no FNP rolls, etc.

If lascannons could first strike centurions and one shot them, then the dreaded grav cannon would have an actual counter. You could give heavy weapon teams in all books upgrades like "thermal targeting" to ignore invisibility.

Total rewrite. Elite infantry and big monsters made of flesh should die when hit by anti-tank fire.

So your suggestion to fix 40k is to allow 30pt weapons to insta-kill 200pts+ models?

You could try a multiple wound system like Fantasy had. That and changing the vehicle damage table would help.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not good enough. Lascannons are a fail against Rhinos now. Go do the math.

I think your approach is all wrong. Things like lascannons and hammerhead railguns should be very lethal to big things. As in multiple wounds, no FNP rolls, etc.

If lascannons could first strike centurions and one shot them, then the dreaded grav cannon would have an actual counter. You could give heavy weapon teams in all books upgrades like "thermal targeting" to ignore invisibility.

Total rewrite. Elite infantry and big monsters made of flesh should die when hit by anti-tank fire.

So your suggestion to fix 40k is to allow 30pt weapons to insta-kill 200pts+ models?

Not instakill. My fix is a total rewrite. Obviously, everything would be priced off its practical battlefield efficacy. The Hammerhead, for example, would probably go up in price a lot due to the rules for the main gun. The Hammerhead main gun looks to be an anti-titan weapon to me. MCs would probably get cheaper, but easier to remove because modern weapons hurt. A lot.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not good enough. Lascannons are a fail against Rhinos now. Go do the math.

I think your approach is all wrong. Things like lascannons and hammerhead railguns should be very lethal to big things. As in multiple wounds, no FNP rolls, etc.

If lascannons could first strike centurions and one shot them, then the dreaded grav cannon would have an actual counter. You could give heavy weapon teams in all books upgrades like "thermal targeting" to ignore invisibility.

Total rewrite. Elite infantry and big monsters made of flesh should die when hit by anti-tank fire.

So your suggestion to fix 40k is to allow 30pt weapons to insta-kill 200pts+ models?

As opposed to a 10-point meltagun murdering 250+ point Land Raiders? You just perfectly illustrated why vehicles are much worse off than MCs.

EDIT: I think it'd be reasonable to give lascannons, brightlances railguns and the like some sort of multiple wounds/Hull Point rule to illustrate the fact that you're going to be taking stupid levels of damage if you get hit, even if it doesn't outright kill you, but I'd also be wary of such weapons invalidating Independend Characters. How about some sort of rule giving the weapons a reduced chance to hit anything smaller than a bike, to illustrate the fact that turning a slow-firing anti-tank weapon against infantry is a really silly plan. It'd let dedicated anti-infantry weapons get some time in the sun as well.

Another option is to simply double the Hull Points of all vehicles. When even a Rhino has 6 hull points, glancing them to death becomes a lot harder.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not good enough. Lascannons are a fail against Rhinos now. Go do the math.

I think your approach is all wrong. Things like lascannons and hammerhead railguns should be very lethal to big things. As in multiple wounds, no FNP rolls, etc.

If lascannons could first strike centurions and one shot them, then the dreaded grav cannon would have an actual counter. You could give heavy weapon teams in all books upgrades like "thermal targeting" to ignore invisibility.

Total rewrite. Elite infantry and big monsters made of flesh should die when hit by anti-tank fire.

So your suggestion to fix 40k is to allow 30pt weapons to insta-kill 200pts+ models?

As opposed to a 10-point meltagun murdering 250+ point Land Raiders? You just perfectly illustrated why vehicles are much worse off than MCs.

This would have to be addressed as well. Hence, total rewrite.

The WK as it currently stands is at LEAST at 400 pt model. At least. You can fire an entire army's worth of old school weapons at it for multiple turns before it dies. That's just crazy.

Martel732 wrote:
Not good enough. Lascannons are a fail against Rhinos now. Go do the math.

I think your approach is all wrong. Things like lascannons and hammerhead railguns should be very lethal to big things. As in multiple wounds, no FNP rolls, etc.

If lascannons could first strike centurions and one shot them, then the dreaded grav cannon would have an actual counter. You could give heavy weapon teams in all books upgrades like "thermal targeting" to ignore invisibility.

Total rewrite. Elite infantry and big monsters made of flesh should die when hit by anti-tank fire.

Hmm

In that case, what if there was a rule where a weapon inflicts an extra wound for every point of strength that exceeds the targets toughness?
Or pehaps a 6 on a wounding hit from a heavy weapon inflicts another wound?
This may result in EW becoming obsolete.

Vehicles need a buff though. Adding more HP is not enough, as the counter would to be spam more autocannons / scatter lasers / whatever. A saving throw would be healthier, imo.

Martel732 wrote:The WK as it currently stands is at LEAST at 400 pt model. At least. You can fire an entire army's worth of old school weapons at it for multiple turns before it dies. That's just crazy.

Regardless of our disagreements, we basically agree on this point.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not good enough. Lascannons are a fail against Rhinos now. Go do the math.

I think your approach is all wrong. Things like lascannons and hammerhead railguns should be very lethal to big things. As in multiple wounds, no FNP rolls, etc.

If lascannons could first strike centurions and one shot them, then the dreaded grav cannon would have an actual counter. You could give heavy weapon teams in all books upgrades like "thermal targeting" to ignore invisibility.

Total rewrite. Elite infantry and big monsters made of flesh should die when hit by anti-tank fire.

So your suggestion to fix 40k is to allow 30pt weapons to insta-kill 200pts+ models?

As opposed to a 10-point meltagun murdering 250+ point Land Raiders? You just perfectly illustrated why vehicles are much worse off than MCs.

EDIT: I think it'd be reasonable to give lascannons, brightlances railguns and the like some sort of multiple wounds/Hull Point rule to illustrate the fact that you're going to be taking stupid levels of damage if you get hit, even if it doesn't outright kill you, but I'd also be wary of such weapons invalidating Independend Characters. How about some sort of rule giving the weapons a reduced chance to hit anything smaller than a bike, to illustrate the fact that turning a slow-firing anti-tank weapon against infantry is a really silly plan. It'd let dedicated anti-infantry weapons get some time in the sun as well.

Another option is to simply double the Hull Points of all vehicles. When even a Rhino has 6 hull points, glancing them to death becomes a lot harder.

Frankly, I'd like to see independent characters largely invalidated.


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not good enough. Lascannons are a fail against Rhinos now. Go do the math.

I think your approach is all wrong. Things like lascannons and hammerhead railguns should be very lethal to big things. As in multiple wounds, no FNP rolls, etc.

If lascannons could first strike centurions and one shot them, then the dreaded grav cannon would have an actual counter. You could give heavy weapon teams in all books upgrades like "thermal targeting" to ignore invisibility.

Total rewrite. Elite infantry and big monsters made of flesh should die when hit by anti-tank fire.

Hmm

In that case, what if there was a rule where a weapon inflicts an extra wound for every point of strength that exceeds the targets toughness?
Or pehaps a 6 on a wounding hit from a heavy weapon inflicts another wound?
This may result in EW becoming obsolete.

Fine with me.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Hmm

In that case, what if there was a rule where a weapon inflicts an extra wound for every point of strength that exceeds the targets toughness?
Or pehaps a 6 on a wounding hit from a heavy weapon inflicts another wound?
This may result in EW becoming obsolete.

You've just buffed scatterlaser spam.

Congrats.

Realistically, we are looking at different weapon profiles against different target types, etc. Lascannons should be incredibly inefficient vs light infantry that probably comes in the form of a massive to hit penalty.

Traditio wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Hmm

In that case, what if there was a rule where a weapon inflicts an extra wound for every point of strength that exceeds the targets toughness?
Or pehaps a 6 on a wounding hit from a heavy weapon inflicts another wound?
This may result in EW becoming obsolete.

You've just buffed scatterlaser spam.

Congrats.

And heavy bolters

I personally prefer my first idea better. The EW rule always came across as arbitrary to me.
Like, an IG general can take 3 hits from a heavy bolter, but a multi-laser is a 1hko? How does that even work?

Traditio wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Hmm

In that case, what if there was a rule where a weapon inflicts an extra wound for every point of strength that exceeds the targets toughness?
Or pehaps a 6 on a wounding hit from a heavy weapon inflicts another wound?
This may result in EW becoming obsolete.

You've just buffed scatterlaser spam.

Congrats.

In a rewritten system, I would completely bust the balls on this thing. I would basically make it murder against most infantry types, but make it completely unable to damage vehicles. So there is a real trade off for spamming them.

So I stopped reading most of the posts after I talked about grav centurions... so forgive me if these points were already made but i think its important..

1) Grav is good against vehicles as someone mentioned auto immobilized , extra hull points.. amp access etc.

2) Grav cents are amazing at dealing with both low armor save targets and high armor save targets because of amps.. and hello... what are these hurricane bolters i have strapped to my chest.

3) ABSOLUTELY GW is in this to make money.. so 'why should i have to buy the new guy.. and can't use my TRADITIONAL gear..." WHY????? because you already bought it and GW is a business that wants you to buy what is new. Additionally, you don't have to take what is the best answer for something.. but in a meta right now that MCs are spammed because toughness is better then hull points and AV,, you can't sit there and say I hate not being able to handle something.. even though you have the best option to do so and just refuse...

4) the meta changes over time.. if you want to stay competitive then you need to evolve with it.

5) You can absolutely put centurians in drop pods.. the vanilla codex allows them to be purchased now.as fast attack. and in the tournament scene some very popular options are ..blood angels formation "flesh terrors", and Space wolves "company of the great wolf". both are used to get quick access to drop pods in battle brother forces that don't have access themselves (for example grey knights). I will just note that cents take up 3 slots.. so you can only fit 3 in a drop pod.

.. I think that was it..

Cheers!


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Oh and Happy Easter! (if that applies to you. if not then Happy Weekend)

My answer to all of that is "the points system is supposed to effect balance."

Period. End of statement.

If you are telling me that I need the new shiny, then balance has not been effected.

Period.

End of story.