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G00fySmiley wrote: Draigo (like all the Gray Knights) does have a god patron, Malal.
The Emperor protects!
As it happens, this sayin is actually true - everything involving the Emperor is somehow anathema to the Warp, as demonstrated by Euphrati Keeler banishing a Daemon with nothing but faith and a symbol of the Emperor, and Kaldor Draigo surviving being inside of the Warp without a gellar field.
Ahh the emperor, Malal's greatest servant. In a sense he is the equivilant of a Greater Demon to Malal in that Malal fights other chaos gods.. the big E does too
Except we all know that the Emperor being turned into a vegetable on his throne has led to the existence of an oppressive, incompetent, galaxy-spanning empire that has caused Chaos to flourish in its presence.
Just as planned.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
G00fySmiley wrote: Draigo (like all the Gray Knights) does have a god patron, Malal.
The Emperor protects!
As it happens, this sayin is actually true - everything involving the Emperor is somehow anathema to the Warp, as demonstrated by Euphrati Keeler banishing a Daemon with nothing but faith and a symbol of the Emperor, and Kaldor Draigo surviving being inside of the Warp without a gellar field.
Anathema to Chaos rather than to the warp. As a psyker the Emperor uses the Warp.
G00fySmiley wrote: Draigo (like all the Gray Knights) does have a god patron, Malal.
The Emperor protects!
As it happens, this sayin is actually true - everything involving the Emperor is somehow anathema to the Warp, as demonstrated by Euphrati Keeler banishing a Daemon with nothing but faith and a symbol of the Emperor, and Kaldor Draigo surviving being inside of the Warp without a gellar field.
Anathema to Chaos rather than to the warp. As a psyker the Emperor uses the Warp.
Isn't Malal about self-destruction and contradiction or something?
Also, wasn't he spiritually brought back into 40k as the daemon Malice?
In any case, GW already, around the same time as Malal, wrote up a draft or something for an actual chaos god of disbelief, Necoho.
I'd like to imagine Necoho would have actually been birthed if the Imperium kept going on the path the Emperor initially set it on. Imagine it---a chaos god of disbelief with the power to banish all daemons from his presence and snuff out warp storms. Basically, that's the sort of chaos god the Grey Knights would really worship.
DarknessEternal wrote: You're not looking at the bigger picture with regards to the character of Draigo.
He's not an over the top, manly man, who can kill daemons blindfolded and asleep.
He's a failure. Nothing he does matters at all. Not even the things he does last, they just reset. He is, quite literally, the most useless person in the entire setting, as every thing he does leaves no impact whatsoever.
There is one part about him that's useful in that he's basically immune to Daemonic assault, between his utmost power at fighting them and his bonded destiny to M'kar the Reborn. There are instances in the GK codex where other Daemons see Draigo as a black spot in their vision, unable to foresee or counter him at all, likely because of his ties to M'kar, and with M'kar having suffered True Death at the hands of Ventris and Calgar using the Shard of Erebus, last I and Lexicanum checked, that should mean Draigo is basically unkillable by Daemonic forces. Therefore, humanity's greatest warrior is practically untouchable.
But also incapable of causing any lasting damage. He may be unkillable, but won't exactly be a huge threat alone. His main strength is his ability to know and see what the daemons are up to, but is still unable to tell his brethren because he's stuck there.
Humanity's greatest hope, but is useless.
So he can't singlehandedly destroy the Realm of Chaos and win the setting? Poor baby.
DarknessEternal wrote: You're not looking at the bigger picture with regards to the character of Draigo.
He's not an over the top, manly man, who can kill daemons blindfolded and asleep.
He's a failure. Nothing he does matters at all. Not even the things he does last, they just reset. He is, quite literally, the most useless person in the entire setting, as every thing he does leaves no impact whatsoever.
There is one part about him that's useful in that he's basically immune to Daemonic assault, between his utmost power at fighting them and his bonded destiny to M'kar the Reborn. There are instances in the GK codex where other Daemons see Draigo as a black spot in their vision, unable to foresee or counter him at all, likely because of his ties to M'kar, and with M'kar having suffered True Death at the hands of Ventris and Calgar using the Shard of Erebus, last I and Lexicanum checked, that should mean Draigo is basically unkillable by Daemonic forces. Therefore, humanity's greatest warrior is practically untouchable.
But also incapable of causing any lasting damage. He may be unkillable, but won't exactly be a huge threat alone. His main strength is his ability to know and see what the daemons are up to, but is still unable to tell his brethren because he's stuck there.
Humanity's greatest hope, but is useless.
So he can't singlehandedly destroy the Realm of Chaos and win the setting? Poor baby.
That's the point we're making. He could, if it were the material realm. He's humanity's greatest warrior delivered right into the enemy base and busy destroying everything they have but its pointless as it regrows faster than he can destroy it. Its a tragic end, not a marysue one.
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Draigo goes back to wherever-the-hell-it-is-he's-doomed-to-fall-into-the-warp in 999.M41. i.e. it's the last thing to happen in the setting.
During any war described in a campaign book (Pandorax, Sanctus Reach, Blood Oath) - i.e. "normal 40k", he's the Supreme Grand Master* of the chapter, and perfectly normal if extremely badass.
Any "quantum leap" esque experiences prior to this point are the result of jumping in and out of the warp having as little respect for chronological continuity as it does for sanity or physics.
* This title does bug the hell out of me.
For Dark Angels it makes sense; their captain equivalent is 'Master', the chapter master is 'Grand Master' and because the Dark Angels are the foremost of the unforgiven, their Grand Master is first amongst equals, hence 'Supreme Grand Master'.
For the Grey Knights, the Supreme Grand Master leads the Grand Masters, who are brotherhood commanders. Fair enough. But unless trying to be pretensious, you don't create a title of 'Grand Master' if you don't have a title of 'Master', which the Grey Knights don't
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/05 11:06:24
Draigo goes back to wherever-the-hell-it-is-he's-doomed-to-fall-into-the-warp in 999.M41. i.e. it's the last thing to happen in the setting.
During any war described in a campaign book (Pandorax, Sanctus Reach, Blood Oath) - i.e. "normal 40k", he's the Supreme Grand Master* of the chapter, and perfectly normal if extremely badass.
Any "quantum leap" esque experiences prior to this point are the result of jumping in and out of the warp having as little respect for chronological continuity as it does for sanity or physics.
* This title does bug the hell out of me.
For Dark Angels it makes sense; their captain equivalent is 'Master', the chapter master is 'Grand Master' and because the Dark Angels are the foremost of the unforgiven, their Grand Master is first amongst equals, hence 'Supreme Grand Master'.
For the Grey Knights, the Supreme Grand Master leads the Grand Masters, who are brotherhood commanders. Fair enough. But unless trying to be pretensious, you don't create a title of 'Grand Master' if you don't have a title of 'Master', which the Grey Knights don't
They have Brother-Captains who are like a Senior Veteran Sergeant, and do most of the day to day running of the Brotherhood. They are in description "Master" of the company. A Grand Master has duties above and beyond a standard Company Captain. Mordrak, for example, is solely responsible for the GK Fleet, in all aspects, and the 3rd Brotherhood GM is essentially the Chief Librarian, and has to keep an eye on them as well as his brotherhood, while Varden Kai of the 1st is also in charge of the armoury, and therefore also Master of the Forge.
The title of "Supreme" is there because whoever holds that role has total command and final word in all matters, which is why his selection needs to be unanimous among the council. I personally prefer the title "Chapter Lord" as presented in the previous codex. In fact, Chapter Lord is the proper title and SGM is just an alternative.
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
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locarno24 wrote: And if the Brother Captain used 'company master' I'd be fine with that.
Equally, in the one organisation which historically used both titles (Navies) a Captain ranked above a Master.
As I said, it's the master/grand master that bugs me, not the supreme grand master title per se.
Well, like I explained, he is a Grand Master because he is master of multiple areas of the chapter. The masters in the Dark Angels are masters of one thing, such as a company. A Company Master for example, while the Grand Masters are heads of multiple things (1st Company and Deathwing, 2nd Company and Ravenwing**) or rank above the company masters in the inner circle (GM of Librarians or Chaplains).
Grey Knights also retain "Brother-Captain" for a couple reasons, a) because Brother Captain has existed since the 3rd Ed Daemonhunters codex as the leaders of Grey Knight forces, and b) to help keep them at least similar to standard Chapters upon which Malcador designed them.
The other way to think of it is not as Captains, but that the Grey Knights have 8 Chapter Masters, known as Grand Masters. This makes more sense when you consider that in the 5th Ed Codexes, Captains and Chapter Masters were seperate entries, identical but for a single special rule and 25pts, and likewise, Grand Masters and Brother Captains were identical but for a rule, 25pts and +1BS. Plus the way the Chapter is governed, the Grand Masters are more like a council of Chapter Masters than company Captains.
The Supreme Grand Master/Chapter Lord is therefore a rank above "Chapter Master" (grand master), as shown by the "Supreme" nominar.
**Yes I know RW/DW and their respective companies are one and the same. What I mean is that Belial, in addition to just being the standard codex First Captain and Regent, is also Master of the Deathwing, which is subsect inside the chapter, but to other chapters is simply a nickname for the first company as the BA 1st are called "Archangels." Similarly, to other chapters, Ravenwing and Dark Angels 2nd Company are the same thing, a nickname. But the Ravenwing is in fact a subsect of the chapter, whose members are also the entirety of the 2nd company. Thus Belial and Sammael are masters of 2 elements of the Chapter, much like GKGMs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/05 12:52:37
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
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DarknessEternal wrote: You're not looking at the bigger picture with regards to the character of Draigo.
He's not an over the top, manly man, who can kill daemons blindfolded and asleep.
He's a failure. Nothing he does matters at all. Not even the things he does last, they just reset. He is, quite literally, the most useless person in the entire setting, as every thing he does leaves no impact whatsoever.
There is one part about him that's useful in that he's basically immune to Daemonic assault, between his utmost power at fighting them and his bonded destiny to M'kar the Reborn. There are instances in the GK codex where other Daemons see Draigo as a black spot in their vision, unable to foresee or counter him at all, likely because of his ties to M'kar, and with M'kar having suffered True Death at the hands of Ventris and Calgar using the Shard of Erebus, last I and Lexicanum checked, that should mean Draigo is basically unkillable by Daemonic forces. Therefore, humanity's greatest warrior is practically untouchable.
But also incapable of causing any lasting damage. He may be unkillable, but won't exactly be a huge threat alone. His main strength is his ability to know and see what the daemons are up to, but is still unable to tell his brethren because he's stuck there.
Humanity's greatest hope, but is useless.
So he can't singlehandedly destroy the Realm of Chaos and win the setting? Poor baby.
That's the point we're making. He could, if it were the material realm. He's humanity's greatest warrior delivered right into the enemy base and busy destroying everything they have but its pointless as it regrows faster than he can destroy it. Its a tragic end, not a marysue one.
And the point I'm making is that creating a character that's such an omgkewlrockinguitarsolobadass!!!! that he can solo the Chaos gods in their own realm is unspeakably dumb. The fact that he can't permanently kill them doesn't make him tragic or compelling - he's still an unspeakably dumb character.
And the point I'm making is that creating a character that's such an omgkewlrockinguitarsolobadass!!!! that he can solo the Chaos gods in their own realm is unspeakably dumb. The fact that he can't permanently kill them doesn't make him tragic or compelling - he's still an unspeakably dumb character.
We've never seen the Ruinous Powers try to kill him though.They don't care. He's beneath them. He's in a perpetual struggle, mostly alone with only his own will keeping him from caving in, doing nothing of substance. The very enemy he fights mostly ignores him. Essentially he is Sisyphus. Pushes the rock up, rock rolls down again (and he struggles not to get crushed I can only assume).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/06 13:17:57
DarknessEternal wrote: You're not looking at the bigger picture with regards to the character of Draigo.
He's not an over the top, manly man, who can kill daemons blindfolded and asleep.
He's a failure. Nothing he does matters at all. Not even the things he does last, they just reset. He is, quite literally, the most useless person in the entire setting, as every thing he does leaves no impact whatsoever.
There is one part about him that's useful in that he's basically immune to Daemonic assault, between his utmost power at fighting them and his bonded destiny to M'kar the Reborn. There are instances in the GK codex where other Daemons see Draigo as a black spot in their vision, unable to foresee or counter him at all, likely because of his ties to M'kar, and with M'kar having suffered True Death at the hands of Ventris and Calgar using the Shard of Erebus, last I and Lexicanum checked, that should mean Draigo is basically unkillable by Daemonic forces. Therefore, humanity's greatest warrior is practically untouchable.
But also incapable of causing any lasting damage. He may be unkillable, but won't exactly be a huge threat alone. His main strength is his ability to know and see what the daemons are up to, but is still unable to tell his brethren because he's stuck there.
Humanity's greatest hope, but is useless.
So he can't singlehandedly destroy the Realm of Chaos and win the setting? Poor baby.
That's the point we're making. He could, if it were the material realm. He's humanity's greatest warrior delivered right into the enemy base and busy destroying everything they have but its pointless as it regrows faster than he can destroy it. Its a tragic end, not a marysue one.
And the point I'm making is that creating a character that's such an omgkewlrockinguitarsolobadass!!!! that he can solo the Chaos gods in their own realm is unspeakably dumb. The fact that he can't permanently kill them doesn't make him tragic or compelling - he's still an unspeakably dumb character.
Why? Every religion has a hierarchy of power. God A beats God B beats Gods C-G who beat mortals. Even the Chaos gods have a hierarchy, Khorne at the top and Slaanesh at the bottom. Greek mythology, gods and monsters can be killed by a suitably powerful warrior, usually a demigod and wielding some sort of godweapon. Draigo is not only a demigod (has Emperor geneseed) but also a godweapon in the form of his psychic power and the Titansword which was apparently forged by the Emperor Himself. Draigo channels the ideals of ancient greek heroes. There has to be someone on top.
Also, no one ever has ever suggested he can kill the Chaos Gods. The Chaos Gods are the raw manifestations of the 4 primal emotions; hatred/rage/bloodlust, ambition, fear (of death), pride and lust. No one has ever suggested anyone can ever destroy these carnal elements of sentience. But he can kill their servants, destroy their forests and temples, which is a tiny feat, certainly not on the scale people suggest. Being in the warp is not a death sentence either. The warp is dangerous because of its inhabitants and the currents. But Draigo doesn't follow the currents, and he can defeat any inhabitant he comes across, so there's no reason he can't survive.
You and many others, just don't like him because you percieve him to be of higher calling than your own special characters whose destiny is more material and basic, whereas Draigo is destined for greater purpose.
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
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DarknessEternal wrote: You're not looking at the bigger picture with regards to the character of Draigo.
He's not an over the top, manly man, who can kill daemons blindfolded and asleep.
He's a failure. Nothing he does matters at all. Not even the things he does last, they just reset. He is, quite literally, the most useless person in the entire setting, as every thing he does leaves no impact whatsoever.
There is one part about him that's useful in that he's basically immune to Daemonic assault, between his utmost power at fighting them and his bonded destiny to M'kar the Reborn. There are instances in the GK codex where other Daemons see Draigo as a black spot in their vision, unable to foresee or counter him at all, likely because of his ties to M'kar, and with M'kar having suffered True Death at the hands of Ventris and Calgar using the Shard of Erebus, last I and Lexicanum checked, that should mean Draigo is basically unkillable by Daemonic forces. Therefore, humanity's greatest warrior is practically untouchable.
But also incapable of causing any lasting damage. He may be unkillable, but won't exactly be a huge threat alone. His main strength is his ability to know and see what the daemons are up to, but is still unable to tell his brethren because he's stuck there.
Humanity's greatest hope, but is useless.
So he can't singlehandedly destroy the Realm of Chaos and win the setting? Poor baby.
That's the point we're making. He could, if it were the material realm. He's humanity's greatest warrior delivered right into the enemy base and busy destroying everything they have but its pointless as it regrows faster than he can destroy it. Its a tragic end, not a marysue one.
And the point I'm making is that creating a character that's such an omgkewlrockinguitarsolobadass!!!! that he can solo the Chaos gods in their own realm is unspeakably dumb. The fact that he can't permanently kill them doesn't make him tragic or compelling - he's still an unspeakably dumb character.
Why? Every religion has a hierarchy of power. God A beats God B beats Gods C-G who beat mortals. Even the Chaos gods have a hierarchy, Khorne at the top and Slaanesh at the bottom. Greek mythology, gods and monsters can be killed by a suitably powerful warrior, usually a demigod and wielding some sort of godweapon. Draigo is not only a demigod (has Emperor geneseed) but also a godweapon in the form of his psychic power and the Titansword which was apparently forged by the Emperor Himself. Draigo channels the ideals of ancient greek heroes. There has to be someone on top.
Also, no one ever has ever suggested he can kill the Chaos Gods. The Chaos Gods are the raw manifestations of the 4 primal emotions; hatred/rage/bloodlust, ambition, fear (of death), pride and lust. No one has ever suggested anyone can ever destroy these carnal elements of sentience. But he can kill their servants, destroy their forests and temples, which is a tiny feat, certainly not on the scale people suggest. Being in the warp is not a death sentence either. The warp is dangerous because of its inhabitants and the currents. But Draigo doesn't follow the currents, and he can defeat any inhabitant he comes across, so there's no reason he can't survive.
You and many others, just don't like him because you percieve him to be of higher calling than your own special characters whose destiny is more material and basic, whereas Draigo is destined for greater purpose.
don't forget you can't kill chaos. Just as the chaos demons represent the primal emotions they also represent their strengths. Khorne is a raging murdering psychopath but he represents strength and honor. tzeench may be about change just as planned dick baggery... but he is ambition and cleverness which in and of themselves are good things. slaneesh is a caricature of the party guy/girl all about sex drugs and rock and roll, but he/she is having a great time and there is a place for celebrations and a obvious purpose. then you have nurgle who is really acceptance of death not fear of death. he lets people be happy with the lot in life and enjoy the routine. The emperor cannot just kill them (like at all it would not work) and even if he could the result might end up with the finality of all things.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: And the point I'm making is that creating a character that's such an omgkewlrockinguitarsolobadass!!!! that he can solo the Chaos gods in their own realm is unspeakably dumb. The fact that he can't permanently kill them doesn't make him tragic or compelling - he's still an unspeakably dumb character.
Bingo.
Deadshot wrote: You and many others, just don't like him because you percieve him to be of higher calling than your own special characters whose destiny is more material and basic, whereas Draigo is destined for greater purpose.
No, no... it's much simpler than that. You see he's simply an incredibly dumb character. He's the prime example of everything wrong with so called "Wardism" that has gotten such ridicule ever since the fluff came out. It's mary-sue fanfiction written as if from the mind of a juvenile who's jumping up and down with barely contained excitement at the sheer "awesomeness" of their made up characters. Grey Knights are the "super-duper" Marines in a setting where being a special snowflake is no longer enough to be "cool", therefore they're the most special of special snowflakes. And they're lame and boring because of it. The Grey Knights are Marines turned up to 11. Draigo is Grey Knights turned up to 11. A perfect case study of all the worst ways to try and make your characters actually compelling.
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: And the point I'm making is that creating a character that's such an omgkewlrockinguitarsolobadass!!!! that he can solo the Chaos gods in their own realm is unspeakably dumb. The fact that he can't permanently kill them doesn't make him tragic or compelling - he's still an unspeakably dumb character.
Bingo.
Deadshot wrote: You and many others, just don't like him because you percieve him to be of higher calling than your own special characters whose destiny is more material and basic, whereas Draigo is destined for greater purpose.
No, no... it's much simpler than that. You see he's simply an incredibly dumb character. He's the prime example of everything wrong with so called "Wardism" that has gotten such ridicule ever since the fluff came out. It's mary-sue fanfiction written as if from the mind of a juvenile who's jumping up and down with barely contained excitement at the sheer "awesomeness" of their made up characters. Grey Knights are the "super-duper" Marines in a setting where being a special snowflake is no longer enough to be "cool", therefore they're the most special of special snowflakes. And they're lame and boring because of it. The Grey Knights are Marines turned up to 11. Draigo is Grey Knights turned up to 11. A perfect case study of all the worst ways to try and make your characters actually compelling.
Come on, now. It's perfectly within a Grey Knight's character to stop just before the killing blow of one of the most dangerous creatures in the galaxy to carve his own name into his foe's heart. For he is righteous and pure.
Come on, now. It's perfectly within a Grey Knight's character to stop just before the killing blow of one of the most dangerous creatures in the galaxy to carve his own name into his foe's heart. For he is righteous and pure.
It was the previous Supreme Grandmasters name actually. That also may well have been part of a ritual to banish or weaken Mortarion since Mortarion was unable to return to the Materium for many years.
Come on, now. It's perfectly within a Grey Knight's character to stop just before the killing blow of one of the most dangerous creatures in the galaxy to carve his own name into his foe's heart. For he is righteous and pure.
It was the previous Supreme Grandmasters name actually. That also may well have been part of a ritual to banish or weaken Mortarion since Mortarion was unable to return to the Materium for many years.
HOW DARE YOU APPLY LOGIC TO THIS DISCUSSION!
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2016/04/06 22:53:58
Subject: Re:Kaldor Draigo doesn't make sense to me
The reason why Draigo is stuck in the Warp is because he's such a ridiculous Mary Sue that the Warp is the only safe place to keep him. Or more accurately the only place that will keep the rest of the setting safe from him.
2016/04/07 01:30:27
Subject: Re:Kaldor Draigo doesn't make sense to me
JustALittleOrkish wrote: On a semi related note I had never heard or read the expression Mary Sue until I came to Dakka, now I read it daily. The more you know...
yeah apparently everyone in 40k is a mary sue. (which means nobody proably is)
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2016/04/07 09:58:24
Subject: Re:Kaldor Draigo doesn't make sense to me
And the point I'm making is that creating a character that's such an omgkewlrockinguitarsolobadass!!!! that he can solo the Chaos gods in their own realm is unspeakably dumb. The fact that he can't permanently kill them doesn't make him tragic or compelling - he's still an unspeakably dumb character.
He's not. That other guy is wrong.
Draigo isn't killing anything. He only thinks he is. That's why nothing he's doing is making a difference, because he's not doing anything.
What do you consider more likely? Some mortal warrior wandering around a realm completely anathema to mortals and not only surviving, but defeating the greatest mind and reality warping powers known to no one (I'd say man, but man has no idea how to comprehend Chaos). Or that said powers are just containing him in their hellish nightmare-scape where reality is literally their whim and making him think he's doing something useful and having a giggle about it?
Draigo's "adventures in the Warp" only exist because Chaos is entertained by it.
One normal man is literally incapable of the things he thinks he's accomplishing. Chaos is not something you can fight with a sword.
The only problem with Draigo is the same problem with much of the setting. The audience doesn't get the joke.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/04/07 16:05:39
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
It's funnier if he's not corrupted, otherwise he's just another lackey. So probably not.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
7000 
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
