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2016/04/15 00:25:11
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
There's a good sentnace in there that basicaly sums up my opinion on the issue.
Think about it. It’s always easier to defend someone’s right to say something with which you agree. But in a free society, you also have a duty to defend speech
Sorry, posting from my phone so cut off more than I meant.
That quote is all well and good except it is used as an excuse against critcizing ideas. I don't know how many times I've seen a bigot try to say their right to free speech is being trampled on when people disagree (even forcefully) with them.
Oh, yes, I don't say we shouldn't disagree, call them donkey-caves (because they are) and exert that sort of social pressure on them. I just pause at this sort of things.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2016/04/15 00:26:58
Subject: Re:"Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
Kilkrazy wrote: It strikes me as a well-intentioned project by an enthusiastic group who haven't thought through all the implications and what could go wrong.
Hrm, I think they know exactly what they're doing, if you're posting someone's place of employment, residence, schools, etc, in this context you're basically suggesting people go do something, you're just being coy about it. As much as I usually want to err on the "never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity", if they have the expertise they're claiming then there's absolutely no way that they don't realize that such a service is essentially tailor made for abuse and harrassment.
EDIT: upon some further research and looking at the other comments, looks like it's possible it may have been a stunt of some sort, but either way it does not look like it's going to progress on Kickstarter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/15 00:29:21
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/04/15 03:25:44
Subject: Re:"Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
There is also the issue that they're putting the personal information of children on the internet for any old stranger to see. It doesn't take a genius to see how badly that can go.
Actually, if someone wanted to kill this project stone dead they could accuse it of beinf a service that posts the addresses of children for potential pedophiles/child abductors to find. May not be accurate but it sure would raise a stink.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
2016/04/15 04:17:40
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
What is a digital footprint?
Users submit a screenshot of a person’s hate-fueled social media post, which is then used to create a profile that includes their full name, place of employment, city of residence and schools.
Sounds like a doxing service
Well, there are various definitions. Here's one I found by the Bar.
Hate speech is speech that offends, threatens, or insults groups, based on race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, disability, or other traits.
There's a good sentnace in there that basicaly sums up my opinion on the issue.
Think about it. It’s always easier to defend someone’s right to say something with which you agree. But in a free society, you also have a duty to defend speech to which you may strongly object.
I would be very interested in hearing the criteria that they use to determine what is "hate speech" - is that the criteria that this start up company is using?
2016/04/15 04:29:41
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
skyth wrote: A lot of cyber bullying happens because there are no real consequences for the bully. How do we get real consequences for bullies without stepping on people's rights?
We had a cyber bullying thing on the books in one of our provinces here in canada and it didn't end well, it was revoked because it was grossly misused. The more sensitive in society call everything bullying, often when it's simply people playing devil's advocate to their opinion. If you look at how insane the individuals involved in the twitter harassment case really were, you can see the problem with any laws based on people's fee fee's.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/15 04:30:34
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2016/04/15 05:31:24
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
MrDwhitey wrote: There were apparently some thoughts that this was a potential media stunt or something. There's apparently going to be a article tomorrow from socialautopsy?
Let me guess: it'll involve references to misogyny, hate mobs and gamergate?
2016/04/15 07:13:46
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
LordofHats wrote: Agree with skyth. More often than not, I see trumpeting of "free speech" come with a veiled demand that they be allowed to speak and not have to hear any response that isn't agreement. I suppose that's free speech too, but if you're looking to hold an opinion and never once be criticized for it, you probably should just keep your mouth shut because free speech just doesn't work that way.
Lording over people the threat of public shaming however isn't free speech. That's threatening lively hood, privacy, and peace of mind and I doubt anyone here is naive enough to think such a thing won't end up used and abused over the most banal bull gak the internet can produce. It has nothing to do with disagreeing with what has been said, but elevating what has been said into a personal vendetta. Hate is a disease, but so is whatever the hell this kick starter thinks it will achieve.
I agree with you. At the same time, if people make vicious hateful personal attacks on individuals or groups in public forums like Facebook, newspaper comment pages, and Twitter, they cannot expect to be defended on the basis that it is "free speech".
There are in fact many laws limiting so-called free speech, incluing libel, threats and menaces, and in much of the western world, race and religion hate laws. These are what should be employed to fight against the trolls.
It requires the cooperation of Facebook and Twitter, though, and they want to do the least amount of work on this issue, so I don't think much will happen until and unless people begin to desert those platfoms because of the trolls.
Project's funding has been suspended by Kickstarter, anyway.
Debate can still continue, though. What would we be ready to do in the name of what we feel good for humanity? Probably a lot of things that are paved in Hell.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/15 09:42:48
2016/04/15 10:02:52
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
It's worth noting there are already trolls who go past 'hate' speech and start organising meat search and harassment campaigns against people and groups they take as opponents online.
Kilkrazy wrote: It's worth noting there are already trolls who go past 'hate' speech and start organising meat search and harassment campaigns against people and groups they take as opponents online.
I've picked this example simply because I noticed it on the BBC a couple of days go. No doubt there are more examples if we look for them.
Yep. This is why I've given up Facebook and Twitter, trying to reduce my online footprint. Unfortunately this is not the first story I've seen like this, people love to go out and harass others through the safety of the internet.
The other most notable trick is SWATing, i.e. calling a fake 911 call on someone, usually a livestreamer, and claiming there's an active shooter, resulting in said person getting harassed by SWAT teams.
Wouldn't most emergency calls record the caller's phone number? Shouldn't be that hard seem to be track them down with that. Then again, I know next to nothing about it, so I wouldn't know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/15 16:24:44
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2016/04/15 16:25:30
Subject: Re:"Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
Here's a few comments from their Kickstarter page. "Brittany" appears to be associated with the project.
Newguy 2 days ago
It's not clear to me how the database will be used, or how it will be populated. Could you please clarify?
Internet Guy 2 days ago
Won't this lead to a place of thought conformity? Imagine if a person anonymously declares an unpopular opinion and your website links that opinion to their "place of employment." That has the very real effect of someone losing their job. How is that progress? If a person fears expressing an unpopular opinion, and doesn't because it could cost them their job, isn't that in itself a form of cyberbullying?
Let's say Jane holds an opinion on abortion and the environment in which they live and work believes counter to their belief. If they find out Jane expresses that unpopular opinion, the people where Jane lives and works could ostracized that her.
Let's say there is a young girl in the Arab world that believes in women's rights, but she has to post her thoughts anonymously. If the community or government found out who is expressing an opinion that is not in line with the group think, then that person is going to be ostracized and their voice and opinion will be silenced.
Anonymity can do good as mush as it can do bad. My point is that your site could be used to cyberbully people into silence and fear or freely expressing a valid unpopular opinion.
Brittany 2 days ago
I just want to stress we are only publishing hate speech as defined by the law. "hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group." Hate speech isn't saying "I hate the jets", hate speech is saying "Any person who supports the Jets I am going to have them lynched because they are a dirty explicits." Big difference between having a difference in opinion and actually threatening someone.
We will not accept posts from their personal Facebook pages. More so, posts of hate speech that "said submitted profile" are commenting on public pages. For example of a post that is submitted, please view Caitlyn Jenner's official Facebook page. There are hundreds of posts inciting harm towards her and other trans people. These people have their real social media profiles and in their bio already have listed their job and city. We would not take any additional steps of trying to find their addresses. Also once we make our database public, you would have to have a persons name to search. You cannot just type in a topic such as "racist posts". And once these profiles are submitted they will be deleted after 365 days if there aren't any additional submissions. We are staying away from posts from places like 4chan and twitter, simply because there are more fake profiles. I hope I answered some of your concerns. Again we are in beta stages so any constructive criticism will be helpful. We also do not allowing commenting because we do not want people trolling trolls.
Newguy 2 days ago
Brittany,
Thank you for clarifying. I guess I'm still confused.
(One thing you might consider is showing this campaign page to a friend or family member who doesn't already know all about it. Then ask them to summarize or explain what the database is/does. I suspect that none would be able to explain it)
The database is for publishing hate speech... Found where? Or once we have hate speech by person XYZ, we can search "XYZ" to find more hate speech by them?
What sites are you crawling, if not twitter and FB?
What's the point of collecting this data? Isn't one piece of hate speech by each author sufficient to classify them as a jerk?
Brittany 2 days ago
Hello newguy, that is a great suggestion and a great way to have an objective view. I will look into that within the next 48 hours.
To answer your question, the point of this is not to classify someone as jerk or put any type of labeling. It's simply, in their words only. We will not allow commenting or the ability to search for posts alone. For example, if you were an employer, you can do a search on social autopsy and see if a new hire has any entries submitted. Already now, many employers are now checking social media pages of interviewees and determine based on their presence whether or not they will hire the particular individual. We are aggregating information that is already readily available.
And to clarify we do have posts from public Facebook pages, because it is easier to identify if a profile is an actual person.
People must also submit URLS and have a screenshot that shows a post in its entirety, just so people cannot antagonize someone into saying something abusive, just to submit them to social autopsy.
Thank you for asking this question politely and being considerate. I understand how this may appear to infringe on people's first amendment rights or can cause bullying, but I assure you we are taking our time to take all precautions necessary.
Also if you have any suggestions please feel free to send. We are in beta stages and are taking this very seriously and do not want this to be used as a tool to hurt others.
Deborah Schumacher 2 days ago
"I just want to stress we are only publishing hate speech as defined by the law"
Which laws? The Internet is a global commodity and Hate Laws vary by country. Look at these Europen differences for a start. http://www.legal-project.org/issues/european-hate-speech-laws I have to admit, having my personal comments linked my employer is troublesome, even if you have to interpert that what I've said is "hateful language". Screenshots can be doctored, tweets can be deleted, facebook posts removed.
Ste Prescott 1 day ago
They want to build a website but can't keep their own blog site up? http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://www.degree180.com Also, the only benefit of this site is that someone who is being bullied might be able to take a name to the police. It is most likely going to cause people to loose their job over expressing opinions. Yes Internet is full of trolls but, welcome to the Internet.
Ste Prescott 1 day ago
Furthermore, how are you planning on linking fake accounts to real people? What happens if you wrongly link a person to a fake account? Like trolls, the stupid are everywhere and people believe everything they see on the Internet. So people could see your site linking a person to a comment wrongly and then believing it without questioning.
Otaku Kani about 17 hours ago
Thank goodness this campaign was suspended as it just totally reeked of hanging 6 pointed stars on people, their homes and businesses and sending them off to concentration camps. Throughout history, there have been those who have boasted of being "patriots", much like these women in this campaign claim, and believed that they were also serving their countries best interest. Only to become some of the biggest tyrants and dictators this world has ever known. I would find it difficult to believe that this group of women creators have never sat among themselves and made catty comments of those around themselves for their shoes or style of dress. Or shunned somebody for their looks or because they "didn't fit in" to their idea of social normalcy. Perhaps these creators need to focus on what is wrong with their need to place people into defined categories that would punish and shun others from acceptance... the same role that their suggested offenders do when they use the internet in the actions to bully or embarass others. Well, at least Kickstarter has stopped this small group of cyber bullies from committing hurt and pain to others, and punishing the alleged businesses of those offenders without a trial.
2016/04/15 16:27:48
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
skyth wrote: A lot of cyber bullying happens because there are no real consequences for the bully. How do we get real consequences for bullies without stepping on people's rights?
Parenting intensified
Really should start with the whole teach children that people online saying mean things means nothing.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Wouldn't most emergency calls record the caller's phone number? Shouldn't be that hard seem to be track them down with that. Then again, I know next to nothing about it, so I wouldn't know.
What if the number is with-held? What if its made from a public telephone? What if its a disposable PAYG or burner phone?
2016/04/15 16:29:54
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
Co'tor Shas wrote: Wouldn't most emergency calls record the caller's phone number? Shouldn't be that hard seem to be track them down with that. Then again, I know next to nothing about it, so I wouldn't know.
What if the number is with-held? What if its made from a public telephone? What if its a disposable PAYG or burner phone?
Well in those cases you can't, but somehow I don't really think of people who call in fake police calls as the sort of people who think that far ahead.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2016/04/15 16:45:50
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
Co'tor Shas wrote: Wouldn't most emergency calls record the caller's phone number? Shouldn't be that hard seem to be track them down with that. Then again, I know next to nothing about it, so I wouldn't know.
What if the number is with-held? What if its made from a public telephone? What if its a disposable PAYG or burner phone?
Well in those cases you can't, but somehow I don't really think of people who call in fake police calls as the sort of people who think that far ahead.
I think you underestimate them. People who engage in this behavior usually get the person's address from their IP address, then go from there. It's not rocket science, but it takes some work. I don't think a $5 burner phone is impossible
The Kickstarter campaign may have been suspended, but the creators have described it as "great news!" and it appears they may have found alternative funding. And it turns out the database, though not yet public, is already operational and full of profiles. Apparently they've been trawling twitter for people making negative posts about public figures like Miley Cyrus and Caitlyn Jenner to fill their database.
This gak is far from over.
2016/04/16 04:08:00
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: 1) Its a gross violation of privacy. Had a trivial but heated argument on Facebook with insults made by both sides? Someone with an axe to grind may choose to submit a profile for you to a database for the entire world to see, maybe taking the original argument completely out of context or telling only half the story. Apparently profiles can be searched for by Name and Employer. This can and will be used as a weapon to get people fired.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this. Social media posts are public by definition. If you don't want your employer to see you posting hate speech then don't post hate speech. The fact that someone doesn't want to suffer the consequences of things they say doesn't mean that it's suddenly a privacy issue.
3)The lack of due process. Cyber bullying is awful and should be tackled but creating a public database of people's behaviours is NOT an appropriate way to go about it. Genuine instances of cyber bullying and stalking should be pursued through proper channels, by reporting it to Facebook, Twitter, parents, schools or the Police. Ironically, creating a public database is itself a form of cyber bullying and cyber stalking, and is little more than online vigilantism.
Why is due process an issue? This is not a government program, it's just one person/group posting their own opinions. You don't have a right to "due process" before someone says their opinion about you. You are of course free to dispute their credibility, but all you can expect to do is convince people to stop listening to them.
As for reporting it, that's a rather idealistic way of looking at things. Bad behavior like this often goes unpunished: police say "it's just the internet" or "that's offensive but not illegal", social media sites take so long to respond that the damage is already done, etc.
4) Who decides what is and is not hate speech?
Whoever is creating the site. It's not like this is anything more than a statement of "my opinion is that the following is offensive", so the answer to "who decides" is pretty clearly implied.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/04/16 04:28:32
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
Would you like to address any of the actual points I've made, or is "you're a Bad Person for defending Bad People" the entire extent of your counter-argument?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/04/16 04:45:35
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: 1) Its a gross violation of privacy. Had a trivial but heated argument on Facebook with insults made by both sides? Someone with an axe to grind may choose to submit a profile for you to a database for the entire world to see, maybe taking the original argument completely out of context or telling only half the story. Apparently profiles can be searched for by Name and Employer. This can and will be used as a weapon to get people fired.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this. Social media posts are public by definition. If you don't want your employer to see you posting hate speech then don't post hate speech. The fact that someone doesn't want to suffer the consequences of things they say doesn't mean that it's suddenly a privacy issue.
Don't you see how this can be used as a weapon? People can and will use it for extortion, and to conduct hate campaigns against people they have a personal grudge against, or people who've engaged in wrongthink.
3)The lack of due process. Cyber bullying is awful and should be tackled but creating a public database of people's behaviours is NOT an appropriate way to go about it. Genuine instances of cyber bullying and stalking should be pursued through proper channels, by reporting it to Facebook, Twitter, parents, schools or the Police. Ironically, creating a public database is itself a form of cyber bullying and cyber stalking, and is little more than online vigilantism.
Why is due process an issue? This is not a government program, it's just one person/group posting their own opinions. You don't have a right to "due process" before someone says their opinion about you. You are of course free to dispute their credibility, but all you can expect to do is convince people to stop listening to them.
So you're in favour of online vigilantism?
As for reporting it, that's a rather idealistic way of looking at things. Bad behavior like this often goes unpunished: police say "it's just the internet" or "that's offensive but not illegal", social media sites take so long to respond that the damage is already done, etc.
And yet, those are the proper channels for dealing with this. Social media sites, police forces, schools, parents. If there problems with those channels and they aren't working the way they should to deal with instances of cyber bullying, reform them. Cyber bullying, doxxing and cyber stalking is not the right way to deal with cyber bullying.
What you're saying is "If you don't get the result you want? Take the law into your own hands".
4) Who decides what is and is not hate speech?
Whoever is creating the site. It's not like this is anything more than a statement of "my opinion is that the following is offensive", so the answer to "who decides" is pretty clearly implied.
They're creating a public database of people and linking them to schools, employers, family members, including minors. They're online vigilantes directly encouraging and enabling cyber bullying, cyber stalking, extortion and hell, possibly even pedophilia.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/16 04:47:45
2016/04/16 04:55:40
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Don't you see how this can be used as a weapon? People can and will use it for extortion, and to conduct hate campaigns against people they have a personal grudge against, or people who've engaged in wrongthink.
I don't see how this can be used as a weapon, because the only way to be in the database is to have posted offensive material in public. The only way an innocent person could be vulnerable to abuse would be if the site has no verification mechanism at all and people can submit fake posts, but in that case it will have absolutely zero credibility and an employer's only response to a report is going to be "who cares if my employee is in the database, it's all fake troll posts".
So you're in favour of online vigilantism?
Define "vigilantism", preferably in a neutral and factual manner instead of attempting to bias the entire subject in your favor.
And yet, those are the proper channels for dealing with this. Social media sites, police forces, schools, parents. If there problems with those channels and they aren't working the way they should to deal with instances of cyber bullying, reform them. Cyber bullying, doxxing and cyber stalking is not the right way to deal with cyber bullying.
Proper channels according to who? You?
What you're saying is "If you don't get the result you want? Take the law into your own hands".
Except you're missing the fact that many of these things are not illegal. Posting KKK material is entirely legal, despite the fact that most people find it incredibly offensive. It's not a question of "the police won't deal with this", it's a situation where the law has nothing to do with it. So what exactly are you trying to say here? That if the police won't arrest someone for doing something then we shouldn't ever be allowed to criticize that person, because that would be "taking the law into our own hands"?
They're creating a public database of people and linking them to schools, employers, family members, including minors. They're online vigilantes directly encouraging and enabling cyber bullying, cyber stalking, extortion and hell, possibly even pedophilia.
That's not a response to what I said. You asked who decides what is hate speech, I pointed out that "whoever is running the database" is the obvious answer to the question. Listing a bunch of scary-sounding words about the database doesn't have anything to do with this.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/04/16 05:18:14
Subject: "Social Autopsy" anti cyber-bullying campaign creates Orwellian cyber-bullying nightmare
The only way an innocent person could be vulnerable to abuse would be if the site has no verification mechanism at all and people can submit fake posts, but in that case it will have absolutely zero credibility and an employer's only response to a report is going to be "who cares if my employee is in the database, it's all fake troll posts".
Thats a remarkably naive and complacent attitude. If a company's public reputation has been dragged through the mud by their association with somebody who's been wrongly linked to this database, they're not going to care if the victim is later proven innocent. The damage is already done, all they'll care about is damage control and divesting themselves of that association ASAP. Just look
Define "vigilantism", preferably in a neutral and factual manner instead of attempting to bias the entire subject in your favor.
I'm sorry, is that supposed to be an actual argument? Cyber bullying and trolling is a crime in many countries, not to mention against the Terms of use of social media sites, and as such there are actual objective "proper channels" to pursue complaints through. Meaning the Police.
Except you're missing the fact that many of these things are not illegal.
You're missing the fact that the website is not about KKK material, its about instances of trolling and hate messages sent directly to actual victims. Which is illegal and against the TOU of social media sites.
That's not a response to what I said. You asked who decides what is hate speech, I pointed out that "whoever is running the database" is the obvious answer to the question. Listing a bunch of scary-sounding words about the database doesn't have anything to do with this.
I know, I started typing out a response to that point, scrapped it, then later wrote that as a new and seperate point. Regard it as a new argument, not a response to your argument.
This however is a response. Do you not see how partisan this database will be? You really don't see a problem with these people setting themselves up as judge, jury and executioner?
What about hate messages sent to notable figures known to engage in Wrong Think, such as people linked to GamerGate like TotalBiscuit? (who gets hate messages on a daily basis relating to his cancer). Do you think they'll accept submissions of hate messages sent to people they disapprove of and are ideologically or politically opposed to?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/16 05:34:14
The Empire 
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