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 Torus wrote:
I'm all for the raider getting SHV status but it doesn't really have the offensive capability of other SHVs

Does that really matter? There's no rule against Super Heavies having (comparatively) light armaments. I mean the Crassus is Super Heavy I think, and it basically just has a few Heavy Bolters.

 Torus wrote:
Immunity to Haywire
Ability to split fire
counts as stationary for the purposes of shooting
Has Move through Cover

All of these rules are included by the Super Heavy rules though, it seems like it'd be simpler to just say Super Heavy then exclude a couple of things, rather than have five extra rules to track in their own right.

Not sure if I already said it, but a flat reduction to 200 for any of them would go a long way and I feel that needs to be tested.

I like this approach - reduce to 180 points and give it the standard rules for the land-raider spearhead (damage table interactions). Still steep cost - still not very killy BUT without melta to bring it down it WILL be hard to bring down before it delivers it's cargo. At 180 points it would be worth it's points...I think wed see a variety of bargain assault squads using it to sneak in at the 300 -400 total point mark. Like a 5 man honor guard or even vangard.

Also change the god-hammer pattern to include 12 man capacity + give all LR the option to chose it's front turret armament. Let it include options for TLLC - TLAsC - Grav cannon with grav amp.

Maybe give it a special rule too like - all enemy modles within 12 inches have to take leadership on 3d6 or something.

175 would be a decent cost for it. Would let you take a land raider and a group of terminators for 350 points. Still overcosted considering what a wraithknight does, but better than the 460 you had pay before.

Or give it adamantium armor, so meltas cant get at it as easy. In addition 5 hull points.

But we all know the reason why it is kept so lousy rules wise; the marked is saturated with them, as it is such a good purchase when building your first 1250 army.

Is it really that often, that it is melta weapons which are the undoings of Land Raiders? Wouldn't it be more... (looking for the right word) balanced/fair if it is weapon with the advantage of long range that had it tougher against Land Raiders?

Chaospling wrote:
Is it really that often, that it is melta weapons which are the undoings of Land Raiders? Wouldn't it be more... (looking for the right word) balanced/fair if it is weapon with the advantage of long range that had it tougher against Land Raiders?

No, its Melta Weapons... Or haywire. Those kill LRs easier than a Vindicator can kill a grot.

Or D weapons.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I like my Land Raiders in a spammable flavour. Making them a LoW doesn't help.

They'd still be spammable in the Land Raider Spearhead formation.

Chaospling wrote:
Is it really that often, that it is melta weapons which are the undoings of Land Raiders? Wouldn't it be more... (looking for the right word) balanced/fair if it is weapon with the advantage of long range that had it tougher against Land Raiders?

Grav,Melta,Haywire.

big ones right there. also Eldar D.

a single immobilize alone can feth it up from a grav. any additional just wrecks it.

Well... Since the Melta range is only 6" and 12", apparently it's easy for those weapons to get within range which leads to my next question: you remember the most lethal weapons against Land Raiders, do you also remember the platforms of these weapons? I guess Bikes and other Fast choice units have an advantage with these weapons compared to slower units? What about units which deep strike close by, such as Obliterators and Chaos Terminators and units in Drop Pods?

Melta isn't really the problem because of the opportunity cost of getting so close.

The problems are manyfold.

Land Raider can immobilize on a pothole.

Land Raider carries suboptimal assault units.

Land Raider can be ignored once assault units disembark.

Assault unit will likely assault one unit, win, and then get shot to death on the next turn, making the 500+ point investment futile even if it works. The Land Raider is then ignored as above.

Land Raider dies easily to Str D.

Land Raider dies easily to Haywire.

Land Raider dies relatively easily to melta.

Land Raider has poor firepower to begin with.

Martel732 wrote:
Melta isn't really the problem because of the opportunity cost of getting so close.

The problems are manyfold.

Land Raider can immobilize on a pothole.

Land Raider carries suboptimal assault units.

Land Raider can be ignored once assault units disembark.

Assault unit will likely assault one unit, win, and then get shot to death on the next turn, making the 500+ point investment futile even if it works. The Land Raider is then ignored as above.

Land Raider dies easily to Str D.

Land Raider dies easily to Haywire.

Land Raider dies relatively easily to melta.

Land Raider has poor firepower to begin with.

Don't forget gauss. It may as well be a 4 HP ork trukk against crons. Also grav, where a single 6 ruins it's day.

Hey, you know what would really get a lot more Land Raiders on the table? Add it to list of dedicated transports for the Gladius!

Ok, maybe not.

Make them Gargantuan creatures and all is saved.

Infact, just through out the vehicles rules all together and make everything M/G Creatures.

If it's good for Tau and Eldar it should be good for everyone right?

 SickSix wrote:
Make them Gargantuan creatures and all is saved.

Please. Flying Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures.