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Been thinking a bit about the current state of Land Raiders; I have three, and love the models, but they're not exactly great value for their significant points these days, especially when many super heavies don't cost much more (a Wraithknight is only 40 points extra. iirc).

What are people's thoughts about making Land Raiders Super Heavy Vehicles? Their size makes it a pretty natural fit, and being able to fire their sponsons and front gun at different targets is a big bonus (I never got why this was removed from vehicles in general but never mind). In terms of durability it means that a lucky Explodes! result should no longer take them down in one hit (though it's still possible, just less-so). It provides no extra protection from being glanced to death, but that's a large-scale vehicle problem that's not specific to Land Raiders.

The only question is Thunderblitz; I think it makes sense for Land Raiders to deal damage as their size would make them harder to get away from, but perhaps the Overrun/Flipped result should be downgraded to Kerr-runch/Kerr-smash? I like the idea of flipping puny tanks, but given the Land Raider's shape I'm not sure if it actually could? That and game balance reasons of course

Other considerations… the catastrophic explosion makes sense actually since Land Raiders do have some kind of fusion engine don't they, it's pretty hefty whatever is driving them? Invincible Behemoth gives them resistance to shaken/stunned which I think is fine as IMO they should have had bundled Extra Armour for several editions but still don't. Resistance to weapon destroyed/immobilised is pretty important, but I'd say that if a Baneblade's sponsons are protected then a Land Raider's should be too, plus given the size it seems reasonable for redundancy in power and other systems that could be damaged to knock out weapons/engines. They also get Fear and Move Through Cover, both of which make sense I think; Fear has little impact anyway (though I'm not sure why we're all unafraid of being squashed by a Leman Russ, Rhino etc., but I'd definitely prefer to not be under a Land Raider as it drives past), and with no access to Dozer Blades moving through cover is nice to have, especially when fluff has mentioned Land Raiders ploughing through buildings without giving it a second thought, why would some loose rubble be any different?


So yeah, anyone got any thoughts on whether making Land Raiders is balanced or OP? Again, for the points and size it seems like the easiest fix; doesn't solve all their problems, but more durability against certain attacks, and specifically damage results, helps, plus shooting all weapons on the move (though the machine spirit may be a bit peeved as it get to do nothing).

I like my Land Raiders in a spammable flavour. Making them a LoW doesn't help.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I like my Land Raiders in a spammable flavour. Making them a LoW doesn't help.

I'm just talking about giving them the Super Heavy Vehicle rules, not reclassifying them as Lords of War.

 Haravikk wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I like my Land Raiders in a spammable flavour. Making them a LoW doesn't help.

I'm just talking about giving them the Super Heavy Vehicle rules, not reclassifying them as Lords of War.

In that case, they'd be really broken. I'd give the, an extra HP and extra armour and leave it at that.

I think they sadly wouldn't be much better as a super heavy. Haywire, D, gauss, and meltas/fusions would still light them up. Still possible for a melta to do 4 hp in one shot (as well as any other high str ap1-2 weapon.) And then they'd go nuclear and your surrounding forces and especially the dudes inside would have sad days all around.

What LR's need is just for the rules writers to realize that 250 for an assault vehicle with no special defenses other than armor is nutso-overcosted nowadays. If they were like 180ish, we might actually see them on the table outside of supercasual games.

Thunderblitz and the giant kaboom when they get destroyed worry me the most. The shooting thing is basically an upgrade to PotMS, and the resiliency is needed. Honestly, Wraithknights going to GMC bother me more then LRs going to SHVs. And that actually happened.

Keeping the points the same and updating to full SHV status would be a little much, but not as much as some other things that have been done.
Dropping the blitz/boom, but keeping the rest would be about right. And might give them a chance on the modern battlefield.

There are a number of things they could do to fix the LR, this is not the worst idea out there. And is reasonably simple, which I like.

I actually like it but more for a thematic point of view rather than for the sake of balance. Like other people have said the Land Raider's main drawback isn't it's survivability, but it's high points and lack of "do anything other than survive".

Thematically though it does fit a SHV given just how much it outclasses everything else in the SM army in terms of armor and size.

@nevelon
I don't think blitz would be an issue at all. If someone couldn't take 4 HP off of a no-save vehicle that is large and very hard to hide, or barring that stay away from it until they can, they deserve to get blitzed. (Which isn't even all that deadly unless the dice turn hot.)
They don't really gain much resiliency out of becoming a SH. Yeah it stops the random stunned or immobilize, but their problem is that they die too easy to things that ignore their armor like gauss and haywire.

I'd try them out if they turned super heavy, but I have the sneaking suspicion they'd find their way right back onto the shelf posthaste.

Well, if nothing else, the Black Templars players would rejoice.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
@nevelon
I don't think blitz would be an issue at all. If someone couldn't take 4 HP off of a no-save vehicle that is large and very hard to hide, or barring that stay away from it until they can, they deserve to get blitzed. (Which isn't even all that deadly unless the dice turn hot.)
They don't really gain much resiliency out of becoming a SH. Yeah it stops the random stunned or immobilize, but their problem is that they die too easy to things that ignore their armor like gauss and haywire.

I'd try them out if they turned super heavy, but I have the sneaking suspicion they'd find their way right back onto the shelf posthaste.

While I don’t think it would be end-of-world bad to include, I do think the game needs less apocalypse blasts, strength D, and instant death things in general. So it would be a tad hypocritical for me to say OK to it when it comes time to boost my army.

The super heavy rules aren’t going to turn the LR into an unstoppable monster. Still plenty of ways of blowing it up. But I do think it would help a lot.

Not sure what it would do to some of the FW variants though.

Even 180 is a fricking Riptide. And a ripoff for the land raider.

I'd say someone test them at 200 points. That's a hefty 40-50 point discount.

Otherwise, they're just too blasted easy to kill. Spartans are over 300 points if you want them to live, and they're still mediocre at best.

I wouldnt go full Super Heavy, but give them Invincible Behemoth at the least and maybe a 5+ invuln save. I mean that thing is tough so im pretty sure we can justify that.

I'd be pretty happy with an improved PotMS so that all main weapons can go independent. That would also get over the issue of it being an assault tank that needs to stand still to actually hit anything with it's guns.

Maybe also give it a reworked version of the Achilles armour (anti melta and Lance) with a Haywire handy-cap like a -1 to the roll.

Stop the power creep!!

I understand why you're suggesting this, but bringing in more super heavies isn't the answer. Otherwise next it'll be "dreadnoughts aren't scary anymore, let's make then SHWs", or "Ork warbosses are supposed to be huge and fearsome, make them MCs". We'll get to the point where Space Marines are MCs (because they are in fluff, compared to a human) and the only infantry in the game will be grots and guardsmen.

Land Raiders haven't been massively nerfed in recent editions (the HP issue is all vehicles, not just LRs). It's more that other things have got better. In the same way that dreadnoughts used to be scary, now they're nothing to worry about - it's because there's so much spammable high ROF and low AP weapons. Nerf the stuff that's gotten out of control, don't just buff everything.

I'd be happy with some changes, maybe a points drop and/or 5++ save, but let's not auto-buff everything. This is how things have become so imbalanced in the first place.

 Whittlesey40k wrote:
Stop the power creep!!

I understand why you're suggesting this, but bringing in more super heavies isn't the answer. Otherwise next it'll be "dreadnoughts aren't scary anymore, let's make then SHWs", or "Ork warbosses are supposed to be huge and fearsome, make them MCs". We'll get to the point where Space Marines are MCs (because they are in fluff, compared to a human) and the only infantry in the game will be grots and guardsmen.

Land Raiders haven't been massively nerfed in recent editions (the HP issue is all vehicles, not just LRs). It's more that other things have got better. In the same way that dreadnoughts used to be scary, now they're nothing to worry about - it's because there's so much spammable high ROF and low AP weapons. Nerf the stuff that's gotten out of control, don't just buff everything.

I'd be happy with some changes, maybe a points drop and/or 5++ save, but let's not auto-buff everything. This is how things have become so imbalanced in the first place.

Either the good things have to come down or the bad things have to go up. So it's either power creep or power...uh...regression? Personally I'm all for turning back the dial below 11, but it's been made pretty clear that that won't be happening, so that just leaves the one option.

 Whittlesey40k wrote:
I'd be happy with some changes, maybe a points drop and/or 5++ save, but let's not auto-buff everything.

GW have had loads of opportunities to drop the cost of Land Raiders now and yet for some reason they've never done so. Also, I'm not suggesting it just because, I do think the Land Raider pretty clearly straddles the line between regular and super heavy vehicles though; as others said maybe it's not quite one or the other and it would make more sense to just give it part of the super heavy rules.

Also as pointed out, even full-blown Super Heavy rules don't fix the worst of the Land Raider's problems anyway, but these are in large part general vehicle rules issues, which I keep hoping will be fixed but never are. That said, even before Hull Points came in I thought the Land Raider was over-priced, and now we have knights and all sorts stomping them into dust for around the same price.

just give them super heavy but cannot explode, call it reinforced reactor or something, simples

Heck, I'd be OK with just giving them a special rule that makes it so that when they suffer an Explodes! result, they only lose one additional hull point, exploding as usual if that's the last one.

In my experience, Land Raiders tend to either survive the whole game or die to a lucky one-shot. Well, OK, when there's no Haywire around - they die to that, against Admech and Dark Eldar. (But frankly, Dark Eldar can have that Land Raider kill...)

They need to be made to not immobilize on a bush on a "1", either.

Martel732 wrote:
They need to be made to not immobilize on a bush on a "1", either.

SHV would fix that.

For a comparison: A Land Raider is about the same points cost of a Lynx... a fast skimmer toting a 3 shot D weapon with 5 hullpoints and able to jink with AV12...

I'm all for the raider getting SHV status but it doesn't really have the offensive capability of other SHVs... Id suggest:

6 Hull points
Immunity to Haywire
Ability to split fire
counts as stationary for the purposes of shooting
Has Move through Cover

OR

Never suffers results from the vehicle damage table: effectively meaning they may only be glanced to death
Move through Cover

 Ashiraya wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They need to be made to not immobilize on a bush on a "1", either.

SHV would fix that.

I'm talking to the people who are opposed. So we can tack on a bunch of individual rules, or just make it SHV.

" but it doesn't really have the offensive capability of other SHVs"

How do you know that? It's supposed to be horrific. At least, that's how its priced.

Martel732 wrote:


" but it doesn't really have the offensive capability of other SHVs"

How do you know that? It's supposed to be horrific. At least, that's how its priced.

Even as a SHV it doesn't have that offensive capability... it has what, 2 lascannons a heavy bolter and maybe a multimelta... that really isn't that impressive or the other variants for that matter...

For the 250 points that it costs it really needs a lot more improvements than move through cover... hence my suggestions above, not making it SHV but making it even more durable so it can perform it's job well...

That said, I do think the assault ramp should also increase the occupants charge range by 3 (usually meaning 2d6+3 inches) ontop of my other suggestions.

The sad truth is that even as a SHV, 250 pts is too much. That's how bad assault is, how good death stars are, and how easy AV 14 is to bypass. Plus, 4 hp as a super heavy means you need one more melta shot or so. D weapons don't even care about SH status.

I think an inv save of 5+ or 4+ and one more hull point is more reasonable.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I think an inv save of 5+ or 4+ and one more hull point is more reasonable.

No, because then it still gets stuck in the mud. That problem, more than almost anything else must be addressed. I have beaten so many LR users just because of that flaw. An immobilized LR might as well be dead.

Indeed

im surprised it doesn't have that auto repair option as the rhino.

 Desubot wrote:
Indeed

im surprised it doesn't have that auto repair option as the rhino.

Still useless. You can't be praying for sixes on 250 pt unit.

Yes, it absolutely needs MTC, and Extra Armour should be built in.

Giving it a 5++ would help a bit too. That does technically help with getting stuck - you can take invulnerable saves against that - but not nearly as much as MTC would.