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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
At least you have GPs, I can't even get one, let alone an appointment with one, I can barely get a dentist.

Where do you live? The extreme edge of the Outer Hebrides?

.

Swansea, my GP retired. Haven't been able to get once since. Luckily I live five minutes away from the hospital.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 notprop wrote:
So overhaul the NHS but NHS workers don't want to accept change so strike.

Not impress.

Yes Jnr Doctors work hard but the UK needs a 7 day a week service and they are nore than recompensed for the time they work plus the imore than adequate remuneration that they receive when the move on to consultant and other specialist sectors.

Like farmers, I've never met a poor doctor. No problem with that but they need to cut their teeth first and this is how the NHS does it.

The new contract will do nothing (by its self) to get a 7 day a week NHS, as you'll also need to have all the technical staff, cleaners, nurses etc in at the weekends in sufficient numbers and there is no sign of this happening

If the government had guaranteed that this would happenen at the same time as the changing contracts i'd have less sympathy for the doctors, but they won't as it would cost significant money, and the whole new contract thing is basically about arranging things so money can be saved in the future

I don't imagine that support staff are an issue. Most trades work weekends when needed,

In my experience Nurses are equally flexible and indeed are almost certainly picking up the slack when doctors have left for the night/weekend.

The real problem is a failure to train up enough doctors to meet the demand in the NHS. Your doctors are already underpaid compared to some other places in Europe, making them overworked through understaffing too is a mistake.

The UK has fewer doctors per capita than Germany for example.

I hope this can be solved, but Hunts "negotiating" tactics have been utterly dire so far.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

A change of surgery should fix that.

Hence "old GP" I'm quite lucky as I can almost always get a same day appointment (often within a couple of hours).

 notprop wrote:
Most trades work weekends when needed

I think you mean 'professions'. If you are going to have full 7 day hospital care you would also need full 7 day diagnostic capability. Currently most/all specialties offer 5 day cover with a limited weekend provision, my department works 4 hours on Saturday and Sunday with an on call capacity for critical tests. There would need to be a significant staffing and operational budget uplift to fully cover 7 days.

No one from the Government has even mentioned this huge issue, its utterly pointless having a full compliment of Docs working if they are there on their own.

 Wolfstan wrote:

People would like to be able to see their GP at the weekend or

Why? If you need to see a doctor take time off work. Many do work weekends, but why should that need to be extended just so people don't have to use half a days holiday at worst?

not have to wait 4 weeks for an appointment.

That is not down to anything to do with weekend working. It's down to the number of GPs that work part time, because they get fed up with working long days, evenings and weekends so end up working part time.

If we go to A&E we'd prefer not to wait 4hrs + to be seen (but that ties in with above due to no emergency cases turning up)

Nothing to do with weekend working. This is partly down to under funding, partly down to lack of doctors, but mostly down to people going to A&E for non emergency stuff and the amount of time they spend patching up drunks and the like.

We'd also like to know that if we did need to be operated on over the weekend, that qualified staff are there and you don't have to suffer agony for 48hrs

That already happens. There is already weekend operations. No one has to wait for vital surgery or has to "suffer agony".


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 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

A change of surgery should fix that.

Hence "old GP" I'm quite lucky as I can almost always get a same day appointment (often within a couple of hours).

 notprop wrote:
Most trades work weekends when needed

I think you mean 'professions'. If you are going to have full 7 day hospital care you would also need full 7 day diagnostic capability. Currently most/all specialties offer 5 day cover with a limited weekend provision, my department works 4 hours on Saturday and Sunday with an on call capacity for critical tests. There would need to be a significant staffing and operational budget uplift to fully cover 7 days.

No one from the Government has even mentioned this huge issue, its utterly pointless having a full compliment of Docs working if they are there on their own.

Unfortunate I think part of the idea is this rather strange tory idea that everyone should work 7 days a week, unless you own a company or are an MP. Charitably I would say it is down to them thinking we all live to work and only lazy people value free time with family. Uncharitably I would say it's because they view employees as tools to be used and numbers on a ledger.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


The thing the government is ignoring is that British trained doctors are extremely employable overseas...

Over seas where?

They certainly can't come over to the USA without either sitting for the USMLE or redoing some of their residency training. If memory serves this is the case in Canada, Australia and New Zealand as well. They would have to make sure they get parity with their chosen medical field wherever they want to go before even considering that option. Just because you have a Medical Degree in Britain doesn't mean you can go anywhere and practice medicine.

Ireland is an option, and we're crying out for medical staff (though they might find our HSE even more toxic than the NHS to be honest!).

And there's also continental Europe to be considered, picking up the language is not as big a barrier as people think.

 Da Boss wrote:
Ireland is an option, and we're crying out for medical staff (though they might find our HSE even more toxic than the NHS to be honest!).

And there's also continental Europe to be considered, picking up the language is not as big a barrier as people think.

Killkrazy specifically said "overseas"...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
A&E operations are available over the weekend, always have been.

My problem with GPs is that I have to decide two weeks in advance when to be ill because so many appointments are filled up well in advance by routine consultations for the elderly, young mothers and children, and so on.

There are various reasons for this, most of which don't involve GPs refusing to work on Sundays. My local surgeries open on Saturdays already.

Two weeks in advance? Bloody hell!

A few weeks ago, I phoned my GP and got an appointment the same day. The previous time was only a 3 day wait. And I'm in a fairly rural location.

I'm in a fairly rural location, south Oxfordshire, but there are a lot of elderly in the area, which clogs things up. This will be a comfort to me in 20 years, assuming there still is an NHS by then.

What I do, and my wife and daughter, is ring up shortly after 8 a.m. and ask for cancellations or emergency appointments the same day. This is usually OK, though you won't usually get a convenient time. (Especially as we commute on the 7:07 train, and don't get back until about 6 p.m.)

On the plus side, there is a small what used to be called cottage hospital, with a minor injuries unit, and I was able to go there when I broke my toe a couple of weeks ago. This was a huge boon compared to trekking all the way over to the other side of Reading to the Royal Berks.


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Mdlbuildr wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


The thing the government is ignoring is that British trained doctors are extremely employable overseas...

Over seas where?

They certainly can't come over to the USA without either sitting for the USMLE or redoing some of their residency training. If memory serves this is the case in Canada, Australia and New Zealand as well. They would have to make sure they get parity with their chosen medical field wherever they want to go before even considering that option. Just because you have a Medical Degree in Britain doesn't mean you can go anywhere and practice medicine.

Overseas anywhere where English is spoken as a first or international language.

It isn't hard to qualify for overseas if you've already got through six years of medical school and several more of OTJ training.

Huh, I never knew overseas had a more precise meaning than just "foreign places you have to cross the sea to get to". Learn something new every day!

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Ireland is an option, and we're crying out for medical staff (though they might find our HSE even more toxic than the NHS to be honest!).

And there's also continental Europe to be considered, picking up the language is not as big a barrier as people think.

Killkrazy specifically said "overseas"...

Both Ireland--in the context of mainland GB--and continental Europe ARE overseas. It's difficult for anything to not be overseas when you're an island nation.

There are few countries that won't welcome an influx of medical staff.

 Da Boss wrote:
There are few countries that won't welcome an influx of medical staff.

The UK is desperate for an influx of medical staff, especially if we resign from Europe, and are cut off from several of our current sources.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

I'm in a fairly rural location, south Oxfordshire, but there are a lot of elderly in the area, which clogs things up..

Still quite a surprise. I'm in rural North Oxfordshire, and my GP has appointments in 3 days. Although it's possible we have more GPs due to having many of the advantages of your area with much lower house prices.

And don't you guys already have some of the lowest numbers of doctors per capita in Europe? Something like third lowest. That seems like the bigger problem to me - sounds like they need to create incentives for people to train as doctors and make it a bit easier for those from poorer backgrounds to get in.

 Avatar 720 wrote:


Both Ireland--in the context of mainland GB--and continental Europe ARE overseas. It's difficult for anything to not be overseas when you're an island nation.

I guess I always considered "overseas" to not include the same continent. A parallel for me would be when discussing the Military and when they go "overseas". I personally wouldn't consider Alaska
"overseas" to the USA even though you can cross an ocean to get there from west coast USA. It's part of the same Continent/Country. When visiting Hawaii I also don't consider visiting another island as "overseas" even though you do indeed have to go over a sea.

I also learn something new every day!

Anyway, off topic. Sorry.

I'm an AHP working in an outpatient clinic. We have no evening or weekend cover, and no on call staff (we have one clinician on "duty" during the working day for emergencies and to triage referrals, etc).

Within my specialism there is an extremely limited call for 24/7 cover, but where it is required, it is already privided but is generally limited compared to week day service (similarly to Silent Puffin's post above). There would be very limited benefit to extending our core working hours to provide routine 7 day service.

I fully support Junior Doctors resisting the imposition of new contracts. It is far too much like what has been happening with far too much of the NHS (and indeed many other public bodies); chopping it up and selling it out from under the nations feet regardless of whether it is of benefit to them and often against the wishes of the staff working there.

 Da Boss wrote:
And don't you guys already have some of the lowest numbers of doctors per capita in Europe? Something like third lowest. That seems like the bigger problem to me - sounds like they need to create incentives for people to train as doctors and make it a bit easier for those from poorer backgrounds to get in.

Yes we do, because there is not enough funding, the pay is low (compared to other professions with the same level of training) and the workload leads to many burning out. So what does the government do to fix it? Cut pay and increase hours.

It's a damn shame, I was impressed by the NHS when I lived in the UK. I find the service and choice in the German system a bit better, but it's a lot more expensive for that small improvement in care. The NHS is excellent value for money and I do love the ethos of it as true public service. Wonderful organisation, and truly one of the things I love most about the UK.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
chopping it up and selling it out from under the nations feet regardless of whether it is of benefit to them and often against the wishes of the staff working there.

Sexual health in Birmingham was privatised late last year, sorry 'outsourced'.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


It isn't hard to qualify for overseas if you've already got through six years of medical school and several more of OTJ training.

It's actually very hard. Many countries do not offer parity in education or training.

Poor Medical Professionals. Should have gotten a useful skill if they wanted to go some other place, like Art or History.

 Ahtman wrote:
Poor Medical Professionals. Should have gotten a useful skill if they wanted to go some other place, like Art or History.

I know right, LOL?!

Mdlbuildr wrote:
Many countries do not offer parity in education or training.

Yes but as the UK has some of the best medical training in the world......

I have been looking at emigrating recently and my qualifications are recognised all over the world, I'm not a doctor and but I am an AHP and while there is usually some kind of regulatory complication and/or an confirmation exam, in essence I seem to be able to work anywhere (that I have looked at least).

 Silent Puffin? wrote:


regulatory complication and/or an exam but in essence I seem to be able to work anywhere (that I have looked at least).

Yes, you have to pass those examinations and comply with the regulations before they will let you work. Sometimes that's not that easy. For example, you may need to repeat part of your residency training, or pass a multi stage examination geared to those still in Medical School or both. Just like I would have to do if I wanted to practice outside of the USA.

You can't just show up with your Medical Degree and expect to practice anywhere is the point I was making. There are hoops to jump through and sometimes they are virtually insurmountable.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

Yes, you have to pass those examinations and comply with the regulations before they will let you work.

Obviously but overall it didn't seem that difficult. For example I could literally get a Bench Seniors job in Ireland tomorrow provided I pay the 200 Euro registration fee.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Mdlbuildr wrote:

Yes, you have to pass those examinations and comply with the regulations before they will let you work.

Obviously but overall it didn't seem that difficult. For example I could literally get a Bench Seniors job in Ireland tomorrow provided I pay the 200 Euro registration fee.

I have no idea what a Bench Senior is, but okay.

In some countries it is not that simple is all I'm trying to say. Some people don't think it's that obvious.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

You can't just show up with your Medical Degree and expect to practice anywhere is the point I was making. There are hoops to jump through and sometimes they are virtually insurmountable.

Pretty sure that no one is suggesting that doctors will just hop on the first boat or plane out of the UK once the new contract comes into play for them and walk into the first hospital they see and start practicing

However in many fields UK training is given a virtual auto-pass when it comes to working overseas, especially in the Commonwealth.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

I guess I always considered "overseas" to not include the same continent.

We're not part of the same continent as Europe. We're detached.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


It isn't hard to qualify for overseas if you've already got through six years of medical school and several more of OTJ training.

It's actually very hard. Many countries do not offer parity in education or training.

Here are the details if you're interested.