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 jasper76 wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

Anyone who doesn't want to use AoD detachment when playing 30k needs to read the part of the red book where FW specifically tell you that's the best way...

Who the feth is Forgeworld to tell me what's the best way to play games. They. Work. For. Us.

I do agree with a bunch of your army limitations...I'm a limitations guy, so to speak, I love em....but FW makes rules for us to consider, not rules for us to cut our wrists by.

wat? I can't tell the tone of your comment: serious or not

Yeah, me either. That's either an attempt at humor that fell flat or a declaration of TFGitude.

Serious, TBH. I do like, really like, alot of material that FW puts out, but I am a better game balancer for my games than any guidelines I've ever read from GW or FW or any one. And I don't think GW/FW publish rules to be hard and fast, but to be gaming advice.

Especially the bit about doubling troop sizes. Feth that.

Anyways, this is getting OT. I'd be happy to discuss my ideas on game balancing in a more devoted thread, and get back to helping this dude find ways to play his Tau models in a 30k setting.

Like I said I think it's going to hard. I know for me one of the reasons I play 30k exclusively now is so I can avoid certain 40k competitive armies like Tau. And it's not like we should or have to play against these armies either.

durango wrote:
Like I said I think it's going to hard. I know for me one of the reasons I play 30k exclusively now is so I can avoid certain 40k competitive armies like Tau. And it's not like we should or have to play against these armies either.

Not at all. But if your best buddy with a Tau army says he want to play your Legion, yare ou gonna kick him to the street, or figure out a way to make it happen? For my part, I'd make it happen, because I rully like playin games.

I'd say a proper Tau army gets lost in the Warp, pops out, and findsmy Word Bearers on a mining planet or some gak. U get the idea..it doesn't take alot of imagination to make it work fluffwise. It's just in the mechanics of 30k vs 40k. And those you either have to master in a kind of DM role, or negotiate with your opponent.

Thing is, the OP didn't say he just wants to play a friend's Legion. He said he wants to "get into 30k" because it's more balanced. I don't think this is possible with Tau. You can play your 40k stuff against an opponent's 30k Legion (which is fine) but you haven't got into 30k. You're just playing Tau. It's not "more balanced" because now you are using a 40k codex so any perceived extra balance for AOD games goes right out of the window.

The only people that are into 30k are ones that collect 30k armies. And once again, I have no problem with 40k playing against legions. If you purely want to use Tau against 30k armies then you don't need a thread of how to justify your own fluff. Just make up whatever reason you want. But no amount of good head cannon will actually make your Tau a 30k army.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Thing is, the OP didn't say he just wants to play a friend's Legion. He said he wants to "get into 30k" because it's more balanced. I don't think this is possible with Tau. You can play your 40k stuff against an opponent's 30k Legion (which is fine) but you haven't got into 30k. You're just playing Tau. It's not "more balanced" because now you are using a 40k codex so any perceived extra balance for AOD games goes right out of the window.

The only people that are into 30k are ones that collect 30k armies. And once again, I have no problem with 40k playing against legions. If you purely want to use Tau against 30k armies then you don't need a thread of how to justify your own fluff. Just make up whatever reason you want. But no amount of good head cannon will actually make your Tau a 30k army.

Feels like a lot of people are missing the point here. 40k sucks right now. It's unbalanced and just generally not fun. You either run one of a very limited number of army lists or you have no real chance of winning any games. As a Tau player, I'm desperately looking for a way to use my models that is fun and more balanced.

30k looks fun and more balanced... but also feels like just another GW/FW example of giving Marines toys that the rest of us don't have access to.

Many people think that 40k needs a total rewrite to be fun again and more balanced. Marines got that in the 30k rule set and army lists. IG are getting it next. Pays to be Imperial, I guess. It's not like I want to bring a competitive 40k list with Formations, etc. to a 30k fight. I want a Tau Empire Age of Darkness style army list... no Formations, fewer force multipliers, larger units of Fire Warriors, etc. Of course, that'll never happen because Tau aren't Marines.

 Kriswall wrote:
From a historically non-Marine player, 30k's appeal has nothing to do with the Legiones Astartes or the Horus Heresy background. It's the promise of a more balanced 40k rule set.

Marine players can play either the severely unbalanced 40k or the more balanced (from what I can tell) 30k. Xenos players don't have that option. It's unbalanced, almost unplayable core 40k or nothing.

Is it surprising that people are constantly looking for ways to shoehorn Xenos into 30k? It's frustrating when the response is a simple "nope" or a long sales pitch on picking a Legion. I spent a ton of money on my Tau and Necron armies. I'd like to use them, but 40k isn't really fun anymore. 30k IS fun... but kind of elitist and not very welcoming.

30k is fun *because* there are no xenos factions and the game is better balanced as a result. Introducing xenos factions, specifically 40k codex xenos factions, makes 30k unbalanced, and thus makes it less fun. Hence the protective elitism of not mixing 30k and 40k.


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 jasper76 wrote:
Serious, TBH. I do like, really like, alot of material that FW puts out, but I am a better game balancer for my games than any guidelines I've ever read from GW or FW or any one.

30k/40k arent "your games", I can all but guarantee, unless you have experience in game design, that you couldnt do a better job than forgeworld does when it comes to game balance.

Everyone's definition of fun is different and subjective. If it works for his/her group, then so be it.

I wouldn't mind playing against Eldar or Orks, as the Crusading armies certainly did. Tau could be an interex stand-in, for example.

But then, my group doesn't do Eldar Biker spam or run 3x Riptides. If you are in that meta, I could understand a reluctance to play against Eldar/Tau/Whatever.

chaos0xomega wrote:
30k is fun *because* there are no xenos factions and the game is better balanced as a result. Introducing xenos factions, specifically 40k codex xenos factions, makes 30k unbalanced, and thus makes it less fun. Hence the protective elitism of not mixing 30k and 40k.

I don't think it has anything to do with Xenos races. 40k standard Codex: Space Marines would also be terribly unbalanced in a 30k environment.

I guess what most of us Xenos players are saying is that 30k seems like a more balanced and more playable version of 40k. It really sucks that it's only for Imperial players. Marine players can just pick up these new rules and play with their Power Armoured Marines (armour mark notwithstanding). If I want to play, I have to buy an entirely new army.

It feels unfair and it would be nice to have that feeling validated instead of hearing about "protective elitism". Would be much nicer to hear "yeah, that sucks. exclusive rules that cater to only part of the gaming community aren't great".

This is true, 40K marines would stomp 30K marine face. That said, you will get some raised eyebrows if you just start using a bunch of MkVIIs and VIIIs with Aquilas on chests everywhere. I wouldn't play such an opponent more than once or twice.

The Solar Auxilia and Militia lists can represent an enormous variety of forces. You could adapt those rules to your Tau models. For example, what selection of models do you have that you would want to use? We can probably find some correlation to something that already exists in the Age of Darkness.

Your complaint is a bit misplaced, though. There were no Tau, Eldar were scattered and on the run, Tyranids had not shown up, and Necrons were still asleep. Did you want them to shatter the narrative and create new rules just for you so you can give them less money? Doesn't seem to make sense any way you cut it.

HandofMars wrote:
This is true, 40K marines would stomp 30K marine face. That said, you will get some raised eyebrows if you just start using a bunch of MkVIIs and VIIIs with Aquilas on chests everywhere. I wouldn't play such an opponent more than once or twice.

The Solar Auxilia and Militia lists can represent an enormous variety of forces. You could adapt those rules to your Tau models. For example, what selection of models do you have that you would want to use? We can probably find some correlation to something that already exists in the Age of Darkness.

Your complaint is a bit misplaced, though. There were no Tau, Eldar were scattered and on the run, Tyranids had not shown up, and Necrons were still asleep. Did you want them to shatter the narrative and create new rules just for you so you can give them less money? Doesn't seem to make sense any way you cut it.

Ah... I think there is a key misunderstanding here.

First off, I'm more concerned about being able to play and less concerned about narrative. Local gaming groups are falling apart as fewer and fewer people are willing to play 40k. I see 30k as a ray of hope, not in terms of narrative, but in terms of a game where there isn't an insurmountable power gap between a well built list and an average build.

Second, I don't want them to create new rules so that I can give them less money. I'm not even sure I understand what you mean there. I want them to create new rules so that I can use the models I've already given them money for. Look at any competitive 40k tournament. A very limited number of pretty similar lists always end up on top. I have pretty much everything the Tau Empire line has to offer, but can't build a truly competitive list. By that, I mean a list that wins tournaments. Tau haven't placed in the top 10 in a major tournament for awhile now. All else equal, I'd at least like to have a balanced chance to win, with victory determined more by player skill and less by auto-take power units and formations.

I guess you need to separate the Age of Darkness rules from the Horus Heresy fluff. The rules make for a more balanced, more narrative game. It would be great if Xenos players had access to such a rule set. All we have is standard 40k, which doesn't currently lend itself to balance or narrative. I can build a fluffy Tau list with Stealth Suits, Pathfinders and Kroot and I'll be immediately crushed by anyone who min/maxes. 30k seems less susceptible to min/maxing, so it's far more attractive. I'm just not allowed to play because my toys are the wrong shape.

But really, the Age of Darkness rules are not super different from the 40K rules.

It basically comes down to:

No formations/decurions/detachments/dataslates, everyone uses a standard Force Organization Chart as a starting point (like it was in every previous edition before the madness consumed us). This prevents cherry-picked super combos, although there is limited potential for some shenanigans in the Shattered Legion rules.

Cannot ride in allied transports, period. The drop pod taxi service has already been stopped by the latest GW FAQ, but you can still embark during the course of the game. This does create awkward situations in 30K where Agents of the Emperor like Navigators and Knights Errant can't ride with their buds.

You can cheese out 30K too, like a Solar Auxilia You get a S10 AP2 blast, You get a S10 AP2 blast, Everybody gets a S10 AP2 blast! list.

The only reason why to not have them, is the fact they out-shoot all the shooty legions. At said before their are all kinds of ways to justify having them.

 Kriswall wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
30k is fun *because* there are no xenos factions and the game is better balanced as a result. Introducing xenos factions, specifically 40k codex xenos factions, makes 30k unbalanced, and thus makes it less fun. Hence the protective elitism of not mixing 30k and 40k.

I don't think it has anything to do with Xenos races. 40k standard Codex: Space Marines would also be terribly unbalanced in a 30k environment.

I guess what most of us Xenos players are saying is that 30k seems like a more balanced and more playable version of 40k. It really sucks that it's only for Imperial players. Marine players can just pick up these new rules and play with their Power Armoured Marines (armour mark notwithstanding). If I want to play, I have to buy an entirely new army.

It feels unfair and it would be nice to have that feeling validated instead of hearing about "protective elitism". Would be much nicer to hear "yeah, that sucks. exclusive rules that cater to only part of the gaming community aren't great".

It's exactly because of the lack of other races. AOD is balanced because it uses slight variations of essentially 4 army books and the vast majority uses just one of those books. The rest of the game is almost exactly the same as 40k. Nothing compels you to use multi CAD, formations, excessive Lords of War. You want to use a more balanced Tau army, then you are welcome to do that in 40k, literally nothing stops you. Tau don't belong in the setting, period. You can make a million reasons to fight your friend's legions armies. I have said several times that I support that. However, nothing you do will ever make Tau part of the Age of Darkness period, which is what the Crusade book/Legions Book is written for.

I hate all of these cries of "elitism" from 40k gamers every time someone tries to explain what the existing 30k community enjoys, then complaining when we aren't willing to change it so it just resembles 40k again. You have 40k. You can play 40k with your friends with whatever house rules you want to make your games balanced, same for 30k, but you don't need to shoehorn everything into 30k because you read somewhere that 30k "seems more balanced" whilst simultaneously failing to understand exactly why it is more balanced.

I don't really get it. There isn't a seperate game called 30k. There are supplementary rules for 40k, that cater for legion wars in a different time period. If you are playing with any xenos race, you are still just choosing the same options, in the same manner, with the same rules. I don't see why there is the need to have to say you are playing 30k rather than 40k, if you yourself aren't really doing anything different to what you would be doing in 40k. If you want to fight a legion list, fair enough, but does it really matter what time period you are saying it's in?

I'm not trying to belittle anyone's intentions, I'm just struggling to understand what difference it makes if you are going to be using your 40k army and codex rules anyway.

I speak as someone who has every intention of using Legion rules against 40K armies - but I know that most of my likely opponents will be up for something different and hopefully will embrace it.

But..

For those with an issue, I'm guessing that there's two different creative teams driving the rules, and both eras have access to rules which may offer issues when combined (a deflagrate heavy army must do horrible things to Orks, Guard and Nids..)

Personally, both using the AoD force org and not being a dick probably will solve most potential issues.

 JamesY wrote:
I don't really get it. There isn't a seperate game called 30k. There are supplementary rules for 40k, that cater for legion wars in a different time period. If you are playing with any xenos race, you are still just choosing the same options, in the same manner, with the same rules. I don't see why there is the need to have to say you are playing 30k rather than 40k, if you yourself aren't really doing anything different to what you would be doing in 40k. If you want to fight a legion list, fair enough, but does it really matter what time period you are saying it's in?

I'm not trying to belittle anyone's intentions, I'm just struggling to understand what difference it makes if you are going to be using your 40k army and codex rules anyway.

This is exactly my thoughts as well. I think it stems from most 40k players just hearing about "30k" and not having read the Forgeworld books. They both still use the core rulebook so all of the perceived balance comes from a smaller pool of available armies, that were released closer together and older lists get errata'd to bring them in line with newer ones.

AoD is a game modification that is more radical than the old Citifight or Aerial Assault expansions, and those expansions were shunned as "not real 40K". The AoD armies also use vastly different design methodology from the GW studio armies. It's not a completely different game, but it's not the same one either. It's like playing a "historic accuracy and rebalance" mod of a Total War or Civilization game.

HandofMars wrote:
AoD is a game modification that is more radical than the old Citifight or Aerial Assault expansions, and those expansions were shunned as "not real 40K". The AoD armies also use vastly different design methodology from the GW studio armies. It's not a completely different game, but it's not the same one either. It's like playing a "historic accuracy and rebalance" mod of a Total War or Civilization game.

True but it is radical for just how specific it's factions are and how many it excludes. If you include all 40k races then it's just 40k with a different CAD. Nobody is saying that 30k armies can't fight 40k ones, just that using Tau/Necrons etc is not "playing 30k".

HandofMars wrote:
AoD is a game modification that is more radical than the old Citifight or Aerial Assault expansions, and those expansions were shunned as "not real 40K". The AoD armies also use vastly different design methodology from the GW studio armies. It's not a completely different game, but it's not the same one either. It's like playing a "historic accuracy and rebalance" mod of a Total War or Civilization game.

No it isn't, the pregame selection process has different options and follows a slightly different structure, that's all. The actual game play in terms of mechanics is the same. You can argue that the different selection process allows for a more balanced game, which makes for a more satisfying game, but that's all. But that was my question, if a player doesn't have access to that different selection process, and will still be playing a game with the same mechanics, what difference does the number 30k or 40k make?

There are some lists like Sons of Horus and Iron Warriors that can curb stomp battle company 40k Marines. They can match up well versus death star 40k Marines too but it would probably be close between two like skilled players.

30k lists run at higher points for what you get... Sure you can play smaller games but I think 2000+ points is more typical which is an advantage for 40k armies since they get more good stuff for equal points.

People have talked about how they feel immersed in the game when they play 30k which I totally agree and for me playing against Eldar or Tau would ruin the feeling and there's absolutely no balance. 40k has no balance whatsoever now so there is no magic that will make it work with 30k.

I recently had a game versus a 40k Marine army where at literally the last second my opponent asked if his friend who plays Eldar could join. I really didn't want to but said okay not to be a pain. It was not a fun game even though very close and I ended up winning. I won't do it again.

I think if you want to play 30k then invest in a 30k army.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Nobody is saying that 30k armies can't fight 40k ones

Except, you know, Forge World themselves, when they repeatedly state that the games are not balanced or designed to go against each other, but if you can make it work with whatever houserules you need, more power to you.

HandofMars wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Nobody is saying that 30k armies can't fight 40k ones

Except, you know, Forge World themselves, when they repeatedly state that the games are not balanced or designed to go against each other, but if you can make it work with whatever houserules you need, more power to you.

I was just trying to be diplomatic, personally it breaks immersion for me. I don't mind if I only get a few games a year, I would only roll my Legion out to fight a HH battle. But if people want to make it work they can, but no amount of house rules are going to make Tau a part of the 30k setting.

Damn the diplomacy, man the battle stations!

It's pretty simple, you wanna play XYZ xenos races in 30k, follow the 30k force org. If you don't like this or don't find it fun to play that way, go back to 40k, because it's the FoC, limitations to armies assets like the LoW 25% restrictions that make 30k appear more balanced, so if you want the Balance of 30k you have to play it like 30k, it's really that simple.

Orks and Eldar both exist and cause trouble in the 30k timeline, it's just that the stories follow the Heresy near exclusively because it really was the big thing in the galaxy at the time.

You wanna play Guard? Great call em the Imperial Army and follow the AoD force org.

You wanna play Nids? Great call em Something else and use the AoD force org.

Wanna play Tau and do it seriously? Call em something else and use the AoD FoC.

For all the Non existant armies at this timeline I always urge some sort of conversion to make em fit better, like removing race emblems like Tau cept markings, Guard Aquillas and such but it's not a Must Have.

But in the end, if you wanna play an Age of Darkness game, follow the Age of Dark Ness rules or you're not playing a true Age of Darkness game.

I don't know why this is such a source of contention.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
It's pretty simple, you wanna play XYZ xenos races in 30k, follow the 30k force org. If you don't like this or don't find it fun to play that way, go back to 40k, because it's the FoC, limitations to armies assets like the LoW 25% restrictions that make 30k appear more balanced, so if you want the Balance of 30k you have to play it like 30k, it's really that simple.

Orks and Eldar both exist and cause trouble in the 30k timeline, it's just that the stories follow the Heresy near exclusively because it really was the big thing in the galaxy at the time.

You wanna play Guard? Great call em the Imperial Army and follow the AoD force org.

You wanna play Nids? Great call em Something else and use the AoD force org.

Wanna play Tau and do it seriously? Call em something else and use the AoD FoC.

For all the Non existant armies at this timeline I always urge some sort of conversion to make em fit better, like removing race emblems like Tau cept markings, Guard Aquillas and such but it's not a Must Have.

But in the end, if you wanna play an Age of Darkness game, follow the Age of Dark Ness rules or you're not playing a true Age of Darkness game.

I don't know why this is such a source of contention.

Both players following the AoD foc and rules probably can't be stressed enough. Alot of the formations in 40k give so many free rules, the 30k armies will get curbed stomped alot. It's hard to explain that to the average 40k players sadly, who still think FW is "OP".

On the the topic of IG, they can be ported to the Milita army list fairly well. Warrior Elite+Alchem-Jackers is a good combo, and most cadian armies will be able to repersent with out any modifications. (They are a proper standing army = Warrior Elite, The Drugs are pills and are in pockets/pouches = Alchem-Jackers.) The only downside is that you are missing anything mounted on a chimera, and that's alot of stuff. But if you have alot of infantry, then you can jump right in. You can even use your commissars for your discipline enforcers. (I would Imagen in the long run, that you would want to model some that aren't so "40k" looking from plastic cadians. But most people would understand if you were using them well making the switch.)

If modeling IG for 30k, you just need to remove Aquillas, not the winged skulls. And even then it's ok for their to be Aquillas on commanders and high ranking officers.

 Kriswall wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
This is true, 40K marines would stomp 30K marine face. That said, you will get some raised eyebrows if you just start using a bunch of MkVIIs and VIIIs with Aquilas on chests everywhere. I wouldn't play such an opponent more than once or twice.

The Solar Auxilia and Militia lists can represent an enormous variety of forces. You could adapt those rules to your Tau models. For example, what selection of models do you have that you would want to use? We can probably find some correlation to something that already exists in the Age of Darkness.

Your complaint is a bit misplaced, though. There were no Tau, Eldar were scattered and on the run, Tyranids had not shown up, and Necrons were still asleep. Did you want them to shatter the narrative and create new rules just for you so you can give them less money? Doesn't seem to make sense any way you cut it.

Ah... I think there is a key misunderstanding here.

First off, I'm more concerned about being able to play and less concerned about narrative. Local gaming groups are falling apart as fewer and fewer people are willing to play 40k. I see 30k as a ray of hope, not in terms of narrative, but in terms of a game where there isn't an insurmountable power gap between a well built list and an average build.

Second, I don't want them to create new rules so that I can give them less money. I'm not even sure I understand what you mean there. I want them to create new rules so that I can use the models I've already given them money for. Look at any competitive 40k tournament. A very limited number of pretty similar lists always end up on top. I have pretty much everything the Tau Empire line has to offer, but can't build a truly competitive list. By that, I mean a list that wins tournaments. Tau haven't placed in the top 10 in a major tournament for awhile now. All else equal, I'd at least like to have a balanced chance to win, with victory determined more by player skill and less by auto-take power units and formations.

I guess you need to separate the Age of Darkness rules from the Horus Heresy fluff. The rules make for a more balanced, more narrative game. It would be great if Xenos players had access to such a rule set. All we have is standard 40k, which doesn't currently lend itself to balance or narrative. I can build a fluffy Tau list with Stealth Suits, Pathfinders and Kroot and I'll be immediately crushed by anyone who min/maxes. 30k seems less susceptible to min/maxing, so it's far more attractive. I'm just not allowed to play because my toys are the wrong shape.

Use the Age of Darkness rules? I mean, I'm not sure what exactly you're asking for. A better Tau codex? A more balanced 40k rulebook?

I think it's best just to keep Tau out of 30k. I don't think anyone is going to convert theirs to look like Interrex.

"who is Hasbro to tell me how to play monopoly?"

WTF is the point of spending hundreds of £s on rulebooks from FW if you're going to ignore them? Sure, you can play however you want. If a pack of scatbikes and a WK dominating a Maelstrom game against your 30k army is fun to you then I'm not going to tell you you're wrong. However, the rules for this game are actually rules and not just guidelines. When I play 30k, I want to play 30k, not whatever home brew rules people cooked up.