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6^ wrote: Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.
The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.
As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.
Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?
pm713 wrote: This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.
I think the CSM player wins.
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
pm713 wrote: This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.
I think the CSM player wins.
You bet your arse I do.
Me and my 5 year old Codex will be here to remind anyone crying that they are not even more OP what the bottom of the pile looks like.
Doesn't stop me from painting them though.
I just hope you realize most Loyalist players (at least that I know) find it fairly idiotic that we've gotten 2 codex updates in the last few years, while CSM are languishing in the back. It kills me every time to see CSM players do nothing but bash the Loyalists.
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
6^ wrote: Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.
The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.
As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.
Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?
Is it of your opinion that the ultramarine chapter tactics are the most competitive in the codex? IMO the cover featuring the Ultra on it was misleading when they had the least to do with the supplement. Even black Templars, and technically crimson fists got more out of it... and I disagree with about the codex cover since its titled adeptus astartes not codex ultramarines.
6^ wrote: Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.
The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.
As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.
Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?
Is it of your opinion that the ultramarine chapter tactics are the most competitive in the codex? IMO the cover featuring the Ultra on it was misleading when they had the least to do with the supplement. Even black Templars, and technically crimson fists got more out of it... and I disagree with about the codex cover since its titled adeptus astartes not codex ultramarines.
Ultramarines are one of the most well-known Space Marine chapters, and they've come rather iconic over the years. Of course they'd put an Ultramarine on the cover, and we still got something out of the supplement (although god knows we've got plenty as UM players at this point). Or did you miss the Cataphractii Termies, Captain, and Contemptor Dreadnought that we got?
6^ wrote: Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.
The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.
As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.
Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?
Is it of your opinion that the ultramarine chapter tactics are the most competitive in the codex? IMO the cover featuring the Ultra on it was misleading when they had the least to do with the supplement. Even black Templars, and technically crimson fists got more out of it... and I disagree with about the codex cover since its titled adeptus astartes not codex ultramarines.
They're far from the worst tactics. It's not exactly misleading they aren't claiming it has much to do with Ultramarines. The product description is pretty clear about what it is.
If anyone got boned it was other loyalists who bought it expecting new powers to find that they need house rules to use them. Granted I can't expect anyone blocking them but still.
6^ wrote: Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.
The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.
As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.
Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?
Is it of your opinion that the ultramarine chapter tactics are the most competitive in the codex? IMO the cover featuring the Ultra on it was misleading when they had the least to do with the supplement. Even black Templars, and technically crimson fists got more out of it... and I disagree with about the codex cover since its titled adeptus astartes not codex ultramarines.
I haven't thought about whether or or not the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics are the most competitive, but the point still stands that Ultramarines don't need any buffs or new content. I'm more curious as to why they thing they actually do need anything? But given you ignored my last question, I don't expect an answer let alone a good answer.
And on a side note, Black Templars really didn't get anything since, based on the quick read-through I did a couple of weeks ago, all they got was a Warlord Traits Table they got in a previous WD Issue and a piece of fluff you can find online.
pm713 wrote: This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.
I think the CSM player wins.
You bet your arse I do.
Me and my 5 year old Codex will be here to remind anyone crying that they are not even more OP what the bottom of the pile looks like.
Doesn't stop me from painting them though.
I just hope you realize most Loyalist players (at least that I know) find it fairly idiotic that we've gotten 2 codex updates in the last few years, while CSM are languishing in the back. It kills me every time to see CSM players do nothing but bash the Loyalists.
Most do. But then you get the handful, including the OP for this thread who cannot comprehend why they do not get even more shiny toys, or actually have to think to deal with Tau and Eldar armies and cannot just push models across a table and win through stacked stathammer.
You get the handful who seem to believe that CSM being neglected for so long is karma for the 3.5 CSM book while conveniently forgetting the era it existed in where SM, Tau, Eldar, Tyranids and Orks (toward the end of its lifespan) were all pretty ridiculous as well.
I've been told on Dakka that CSM 3.5 and/or Lash of Submission (the only oddity in a god awful and bland 5th ed CSM codex) RUINED 40K FOREVER.
Angels of Death as a supplement was a slap in the face for CSM and Blood Angels - CSM because we not only got completely ignored in all GW's determination to talk about Space Marines and Power Armour (spoiler, we're a type of Space Marine too guys, why you ignore us?) but we got rather poor reprint of some lacklustre supplements with refurbished dataslate and Apocalypse formations thrown in like that was supposed to make everything better - that didn't even bother to try and give us a Decurion style detachment (ala Farsight Enclaves and Waaagh Ghazghkull) and Blood Angels because it further emphasises the gulf between them and every other SM book.
Understandably this thread made me sigh. Some people just don't have any idea about any other part of the game. 'It has an Ultramarine on the cover.' Well, yes, of course it does. Ultramarines are the standard staple Codex marine Chapter. They're generic. They're deliberately generic. So naturally their artwork is on everything and its dog relating to Space Marines.
It doesn't mean that everything is going to be Ultramarines ++. That's really not their intended purpose. You want Ultramarines to NOT be a generic chapter? Go play 30k where each Legion gets its own unique rules.
6^ wrote: Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement? It looks like the other chapters got a new strike force, with easy access to the new formations as auxiliary choices, warlord traits, and relics.
The cover has an Ultramarine on it I think I wasted my money.
As said before, Ultramarines did not get boned, they just didn't get buffed (like they need more buffs). And the cover having an Ultramarine doesn't really mean much - it's like saying the core C:SM codex should only be about Ultramarines because it has an Ultramarine on the front.
Also, what did you want to get out of this thread?
Is it of your opinion that the ultramarine chapter tactics are the most competitive in the codex? IMO the cover featuring the Ultra on it was misleading when they had the least to do with the supplement. Even black Templars, and technically crimson fists got more out of it... and I disagree with about the codex cover since its titled adeptus astartes not codex ultramarines.
Ultramarines are one of the most well-known Space Marine chapters, and they've come rather iconic over the years. Of course they'd put an Ultramarine on the cover, and we still got something out of the supplement (although god knows we've got plenty as UM players at this point). Or did you miss the Cataphractii Termies, Captain, and Contemptor Dreadnought that we got?
Alright fine I concede the point about the cover, its not that big of a deal. I should have done more research before making the purchase. What is it that we have so much of exactly, characters? None of them are competitive choices except Tigurius. Do you field these units do you know anyone who does with any sort of frequency I don't?
Im not playing cataphractii or contemptors, its just shoe-horned for power gamers, but I do also concede that ground too. Yes the ultramarines got something.
Alright fine I concede the point about the cover, its not that big of a deal. I should have done more research before making the purchase. What is it that we have so much of exactly, characters? None of them are competitive choices except Tigurius. Do you field these units do you know anyone who does with any sort of frequency I don't?
Im not playing cataphractii or contemptors, its just shoe-horned for power gamers, but I do also concede that ground too. Yes the ultramarines got something.
I wish to make the following point.
You are playing the chapter that is deliberately designed to be the most generic and vanilla Chapter in the game. They are the poster boys. They are the chapter that you can technically use any formation for and essentially was designed as the vanilla base that other chapters deviated from.
In 2nd ed. the Space Marine codex was Codex: Ultramarines. It was even named as such. You are the vanilla ice cream of the Space Marine world.
Even in fluff and background - you are vanilla. This is intentional. Your primarch wrote the Codex Astartes. Your chapter sticks to it. It is law.
But other chapters? They deviate - in lore, in fluff, in background they have distinct fighting styles, chapter structures and traitrs that the generic flavour of C:SM does not quite enable. This is why they got these extra formations, why they got these decurions and why they got shiny toys in the supplement.
You an make your army functional with your Codex alone.
pm713 wrote: This is turning into a "whose the most bitter" contest now.
I think the CSM player wins.
You bet your arse I do.
Me and my 5 year old Codex will be here to remind anyone crying that they are not even more OP what the bottom of the pile looks like.
Doesn't stop me from painting them though.
I just hope you realize most Loyalist players (at least that I know) find it fairly idiotic that we've gotten 2 codex updates in the last few years, while CSM are languishing in the back. It kills me every time to see CSM players do nothing but bash the Loyalists.
Most do. But then you get the handful, including the OP for this thread who cannot comprehend why they do not get even more shiny toys, or actually have to think to deal with Tau and Eldar armies and cannot just push models across a table and win through stacked stathammer.
You get the handful who seem to believe that CSM being neglected for so long is karma for the 3.5 CSM book while conveniently forgetting the era it existed in where SM, Tau, Eldar, Tyranids and Orks (toward the end of its lifespan) were all pretty ridiculous as well.
I've been told on Dakka that CSM 3.5 and/or Lash of Submission (the only oddity in a god awful and bland 5th ed CSM codex) RUINED 40K FOREVER.
Angels of Death as a supplement was a slap in the face for CSM and Blood Angels - CSM because we not only got completely ignored in all GW's determination to talk about Space Marines and Power Armour (spoiler, we're a type of Space Marine too guys, why you ignore us?) but we got rather poor reprint of some lacklustre supplements with refurbished dataslate and Apocalypse formations thrown in like that was supposed to make everything better - that didn't even bother to try and give us a Decurion style detachment (ala Farsight Enclaves and Waaagh Ghazghkull) and Blood Angels because it further emphasises the gulf between them and every other SM book.
Understandably this thread made me sigh. Some people just don't have any idea about any other part of the game. 'It has an Ultramarine on the cover.' Well, yes, of course it does. Ultramarines are the standard staple Codex marine Chapter. They're generic. They're deliberately generic. So naturally their artwork is on everything and its dog relating to Space Marines.
It doesn't mean that everything is going to be Ultramarines ++. That's really not their intended purpose. You want Ultramarines to NOT be a generic chapter? Go play 30k where each Legion gets its own unique rules.
I play Chaos man come on. I played codex chaos for years too. What about khorne daemonkin? Its IMO the most fun codex to play in the game, I am genuinely looking forward to daemonkin slaanesh and the rest. Why are you making so many assumptions about me that's unfair. I lose at least 75% of my games, I am not asking for more for power I just wanted freedom to use my collection like the other space marine players, that's all!
@ IllumiNini I am sorry I made this thread man, I am sorry. You're right about a lot. I am just disapointed, and when I started the thread I had just sat down to read the supplement for the first time and was wondering if I missed something. This book has a ton of information in it and since Im coming into this book a little later than some I thought I could get some answers to what was going on. Instead a got a lot of accusations decrying my ignorance or power-gaming.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/09 00:27:46
I play Chaos man come on. I played codex chaos for years too. What about khorne daemonkin? Its IMO the most fun codex to play in the game, I am genuinely looking forward to daemonkin slaanesh and the rest. Why are you making so many assumptions about me that's unfair. I lose at least 75% of my games, I am not asking for more for power I just wanted freedom to use my collection like the other space marine players, that's all!
You posted this thread mate. Actions speak louder than words. KDK was not the fix that CSM needed - for one, the CSM units are all hideously overpointed still. In fact, KDK armies tend to be Khornate Daemon armies with access to summoning and Heldrakes. KDK also blatantly snubs the other 80% of Chaos. you want to know what's real hilarious? Not a single new model was released alongside KDK. That was the ideal opportunity to update the horribly dated Khorne Berserkers (complete with 2nd ed. BIG HAND SYNDROME) with something as simple as a sprue recut (to include the Power Weapon and Fist options for the Champion) and they didn't even do that.
I play Chaos man come on. I played codex chaos for years too. What about khorne daemonkin? Its IMO the most fun codex to play in the game, I am genuinely looking forward to daemonkin slaanesh and the rest. Why are you making so many assumptions about me that's unfair. I lose at least 75% of my games, I am not asking for more for power I just wanted freedom to use my collection like the other space marine players, that's all!
You posted this thread mate. Actions speak louder than words. KDK was not the fix that CSM needed - for one, the CSM units are all hideously overpointed still. In fact, KDK armies tend to be Khornate Daemon armies with access to summoning and Heldrakes. KDK also blatantly snubs the other 80% of Chaos. you want to know what's real hilarious? Not a single new model was released alongside KDK. That was the ideal opportunity to update the horribly dated Khorne Berserkers (complete with 2nd ed. BIG HAND SYNDROME) with something as simple as a sprue recut (to include the Power Weapon and Fist options for the Champion) and they didn't even do that.
What do you mean by your first two sentences?As for KDK I think its a good codex but I play casual games... My KDK consist of Chaos marines, berzerkers, cultists, and possessed. and I have a few deamon units for summoning. what people field and don't field is their choice just like it is to stick with playing C:CSM. I wasn't really having fun playing CSM so I repainted a few of my chaos marine units and rhinos, repainted a few of my cultist units, and I bought of a few new kits too. I love playing them. I think its a much better codex than CSM and I really hope they release other Daemonkin codexs for the other alignments I really do. Its good to look forward to new ways to play.
The Bloodthirster released alongside KDK actually... and I kitbashed my berserker champs powerfist from the chaos marine sprue... and even a few chain swords too. I think they look nice. I'll edit in a moment with a pic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/09 02:24:36
Honestly this supplement feels more like "evening out" things rather than "screw the Ultramarines". I mean, Ultras still get to use the Tank Detachment, get access to the fun new psychic disciplines, and officially get access to the Skyhammer Annihilation force (ok they had access before but it was an exclusive limited edition formation. This is technically it's first printing outside of that).
Besides, when Codex: Space Marines came out, almost all of the special characters in it got access to a formation of some kind (including Telion still being the ONLY HQ choice for the 10th Company formation). That and the detachment in the vanilla dex was named the Gladius Strike Force. You can't get much more ultramarine than that (A Roman-named Detachment that just so happens to share the same effect as the Ultramarines' Chapter Tactics, no points for guessing who this one was designed for). Angels of Death just gave the other Space Marines a chance to shine.
If any Vanilla chapter needs to complain, it's the Black Templars. They literally get nothing out of the new dex other than some minor formations they can technically bum off of and one lousy Warlords Traits.
And don't get me started on the non-vanilla chapters (coughBloodAngelscough).
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
I think what the OP is talking about is that other chapters got specific chapter based things in AOD and UMs got nothing exclusive. Saying that he should not complain because he did get stuff is missing the point. I think the OP wanted exclusive UM only stuff like other chapters got.
I personally think its silly for a Space Marine player to complain (I am one), but lets not hate the haters or we become said hater hating on haters for hate hating. They say its not what it is, but it do.
I mean, the Ultramarines did get the ability to take all these formations.
I'm currently planning on running an Ultramarines Skyhammer/1st Company Detachment(Sternguard)/Shadowstrike Kill Team. Good times.
And the only one who didn't need a buff was White Scars, and they got the Hunter's Eye. (Yes, I know that they got them with Kauyon) I mean, seriously, buffing White Scars?
Ultramarines relics would've been nice, even if it was a mediocre banner, a Legatine Axe, and a few other random things.
At the end of the day, I can't really complain as an Ultramarines player, I got a ton more choices to build an army around.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
They let marines put bikes as lines, they gave amazing op formations, they gave the op gravitons, try could do immortals IC, lot of bb and chapters rules to mix... And few after the joke of black legion supplements, marines got a bunch of new "toys" and the only think they still didn't copy and improved from chaos: their own four gods disciplines. And that disciplines are, of course, better than chaos ones haha.
So for gw is logic release a bad supplement to improve a bad codex (case of csm and ork codex and their new supplements) and a amazing supplement and new op powers to improve one of the best codex... And space marines players still complain? Yeahhhhh xD
And, to make it more funny, then release the flyers book with, of course, new op plane for marines. Aaaaaand new formations to everyone, but no for csm!!
Sorry, usually I don't care or not take so bad this kind of stuff, but the situation on csm lately looks a bad joke
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/09 09:34:59
DarkStarSabre wrote:*Looks into thread. Reads about Ultramarine player complaining that they didn't get even more shiny formations and toys. Shakes head sadly.*
Ultramarines have more special characters in comparison to any other CSM chapter - Calgar, Tiberius, Sicarius, Telion and Chronus - all contained within the core book. They're widely acknowledged as the Poster Boys - to such an extent that not only do they have more characters - but these characters are regarded as being better than other chapter equivalents and it has been joked that C:SM is Codex Ultramarines.
And how many of these special characters are viable? Sicarius? Certainly not. Calgar? Land Raider pricing. Chronus? How many points just to get BS5? The 7th ed codex is far more equal than any codex I remember. 5th really did seem to be C:UM* - but it really is far better now. It's not perfect, but it could be worse.
*Oops?
Angels of Death is a supplement that expands on the OTHER chapters who merely get a mention in the main book so that they don't feel completely shafted.
White Scars. That's all I'm saying.
And...you're complaining Ultramarines didn't get more toys?
I'm complaining that they didn't get so much as a relic unique to them, or some Warlord Traits. And that you seem to think that because they're plain (which is false) they shouldn't get anything special.
You got the disciplines (to use on your superior psyker), you got more formations and you got another decurion detachment as well as 3 'new' units.
You got the same disciplines. Only BT lost out on that. BT should have received something to compensate. You get the same formations. We got no special Decurion. The three units only exist because of BaC. Not to mention that I could take Contemptors via FW anyways. Besides, those special units can be Scouted up by Khan - a unit we can't get.
You know the reason every Marine thread gets 'But Blood Angels are worse?'
Because they are. They suffer from a change in codex direction taking place just after their codex - no fancy decurions or formations for them, save the bandaid formations in Shield of Baal.
But yeah, seeing a UM player complaining they didn't get (even more) shiny toys is kind of salt in the wound for Blood Angels who missed the fancy Decurion and Formation train.
And a red rag to CSM players who basically got to watch Loyallist marines get buffed beyond them twice.
Yeah. Undeniably. But every other vanilla chapter got more too - no need to discriminate against UM players. I'm not denying BA and CSM suck. They shouldn't, and I'd want them to be made equal to their 'nilla cousins.
But screaming "BA HAVE IT WORSE" doesn't mean that UM didn't receive any specific love. As long as you acknowledge that fact, I'd be happy.
@master of ordinance
Spoiler:
master of ordinance wrote:Translation: "Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"
No-one is saying that. But sure, keep the idea of UM players only being children going - stereotypes don't make themselves.
@IlluminNini
Spoiler:
IllumiNini wrote:I haven't thought about whether or or not the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics are the most competitive, but the point still stands that Ultramarines don't need any buffs or new content. I'm more curious as to why they thing they actually do need anything? But given you ignored my last question, I don't expect an answer let alone a good answer.
And on a side note, Black Templars really didn't get anything since, based on the quick read-through I did a couple of weeks ago, all they got was a Warlord Traits Table they got in a previous WD Issue and a piece of fluff you can find online.
So why did White Scars get new stuff, when they are arguably the most OP of the vanilla chapters? Did they need buffs? If you can justify WS getting Relics and whatnot, then I can justify UM getting them.
Just because BT didn't get anything (which is just as bad as the UM issue) doesn't mean UM didn't lose out on Relics and Warlord Traits.
@DarkStarSabre (again)
Spoiler:
DarkStarSabre wrote:Most do. But then you get the handful, including the OP for this thread who cannot comprehend why they do not get even more shiny toys, or actually have to think to deal with Tau and Eldar armies and cannot just push models across a table and win through stacked stathammer.
You get the handful who seem to believe that CSM being neglected for so long is karma for the 3.5 CSM book while conveniently forgetting the era it existed in where SM, Tau, Eldar, Tyranids and Orks (toward the end of its lifespan) were all pretty ridiculous as well.
I've been told on Dakka that CSM 3.5 and/or Lash of Submission (the only oddity in a god awful and bland 5th ed CSM codex) RUINED 40K FOREVER.
Angels of Death as a supplement was a slap in the face for CSM and Blood Angels - CSM because we not only got completely ignored in all GW's determination to talk about Space Marines and Power Armour (spoiler, we're a type of Space Marine too guys, why you ignore us?) but we got rather poor reprint of some lacklustre supplements with refurbished dataslate and Apocalypse formations thrown in like that was supposed to make everything better - that didn't even bother to try and give us a Decurion style detachment (ala Farsight Enclaves and Waaagh Ghazghkull) and Blood Angels because it further emphasises the gulf between them and every other SM book.
Understandably this thread made me sigh. Some people just don't have any idea about any other part of the game. 'It has an Ultramarine on the cover.' Well, yes, of course it does. Ultramarines are the standard staple Codex marine Chapter. They're generic. They're deliberately generic. So naturally their artwork is on everything and its dog relating to Space Marines.
It doesn't mean that everything is going to be Ultramarines ++. That's really not their intended purpose. You want Ultramarines to NOT be a generic chapter? Go play 30k where each Legion gets its own unique rules.
Firstly, I think you're being unnecessarily hard on the OP. They haven't said CSM or BA shouldn't be buffed. They merely wanted their own Chapter to be treated the same as the others - which is exactly what the BA players ask for. The only difference is that UM aren't (thankfully) in the same position. Just because someone is worse off than you doesn't stop you complaining - if it were so, then either BA or CSM wouldn't have a right to complain, as they both can't be worst.
AoD did suck - it easily COULD have buffed BA and made them a viable force. I'm disappointed they didn't, and I do hope as much as the next BA player that they make the boys in red viable again. But saying that UM are vanilla justifies their lack of Relics and Warlord Traits is not fair either.
We're not saying other Chapters are UM++. But saying UM are the generic Chapter is wrong too - these are (pardon my quote) "the paragons of what a Space Marine should be" (really, Ward? Way to ruin our reputation). The point stands. UM are not the baseline - they are the baseline mastered. They shouldn't have a new Gladius - they should be best at using the Gladius.
Also, your 30k comment can be taken the other way too. "You want BA to be playable? Go play 30k where they're actually playable." "You want to play proper Iron Warriors? Go play 30k where they actually get their own unique rules."
Still want to use that argument?
DarkStarSabre wrote:I wish to make the following point.
You are playing the chapter that is deliberately designed to be the most generic and vanilla Chapter in the game. They are the poster boys. They are the chapter that you can technically use any formation for and essentially was designed as the vanilla base that other chapters deviated from.
In 2nd ed. the Space Marine codex was Codex: Ultramarines. It was even named as such. You are the vanilla ice cream of the Space Marine world.
Even in fluff and background - you are vanilla. This is intentional. Your primarch wrote the Codex Astartes. Your chapter sticks to it. It is law.
But other chapters? They deviate - in lore, in fluff, in background they have distinct fighting styles, chapter structures and traitrs that the generic flavour of C:SM does not quite enable. This is why they got these extra formations, why they got these decurions and why they got shiny toys in the supplement.
You an make your army functional with your Codex alone.
They have to buy another book to do it correctly.
I'm sorry, I forgot that you developed the UM for GW. Could we see some quotes from GW designers to back up your statement?
Who cares about 2nd Ed? I means nothing now. If we're using prior codexes to fuel some kind of vendetta, then you've admitted that Chaos should be bad now. Which they should not be.
Yes, UM are shown to be "by the book". However, it's also written that they are the "masters of the Codex Astartes" - why are they no better at using the Gladius (the vanilla formation) than any other Chapter? If you wanted to support this, the UM would be better at the basic formation, and other Chapters would have specialised Gladii.
Your logic seems to be "UM are the vanilla Chapter, so it's okay that everyone else should be UM+1". That is not okay.
Also - White Scars are perfectly playable in the base codex.
@BrianDavion
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BrianDavion wrote:as a UM player I do think that at the very least they could have given Ultramarines their own relics.
This would have been nice.
@MechaEmperor7000
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MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Honestly this supplement feels more like "evening out" things rather than "screw the Ultramarines". I mean, Ultras still get to use the Tank Detachment, get access to the fun new psychic disciplines, and officially get access to the Skyhammer Annihilation force (ok they had access before but it was an exclusive limited edition formation. This is technically it's first printing outside of that).
Besides, when Codex: Space Marines came out, almost all of the special characters in it got access to a formation of some kind (including Telion still being the ONLY HQ choice for the 10th Company formation). That and the detachment in the vanilla dex was named the Gladius Strike Force. You can't get much more ultramarine than that (A Roman-named Detachment that just so happens to share the same effect as the Ultramarines' Chapter Tactics, no points for guessing who this one was designed for). Angels of Death just gave the other Space Marines a chance to shine.
If any Vanilla chapter needs to complain, it's the Black Templars. They literally get nothing out of the new dex other than some minor formations they can technically bum off of and one lousy Warlords Traits.
And don't get me started on the non-vanilla chapters (coughBloodAngelscough).
Yes, but exactly how many of the UM special characters are fielded competitively. Sicarius, anyone? I won't forget that UM have the most named characters of any Chapter, but you can't claim that that makes them any better. Save Tigurius, the main offender, the UM characters are rather tame.
The Vanilla Decurion may have been called the Gladius, and we can see how the UM slot into it's gameplay (everyone becomes UM lite). But UM get the same benefit as anyone else from it. Other Chapters aren't being "given a chance to shine" - they shone anyways, with the regular Gladius. You say it was designed for them - how so? It was designed AROUND them, not for them. If it were for them, we'd see some kind of buff to Ultramarine armies using it. That wouldn't be a bad thing - UM wouldn't need a new Gladius variant. Just make them the best at using the Gladius, as the people citing the fluff in here like to support. For saying the UM are meant to be the experts of the Codex, they are scarely any better than the next Chapter in the next star system.
But yes - I will agree that BT are also shafted by this as well. I won't deny that. But UM haven't gained anything unique either.
@Tibs Ironblood
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Tibs Ironblood wrote:I think what the OP is talking about is that other chapters got specific chapter based things in AOD and UMs got nothing exclusive. Saying that he should not complain because he did get stuff is missing the point. I think the OP wanted exclusive UM only stuff like other chapters got.
I personally think its silly for a Space Marine player to complain (I am one), but lets not hate the haters or we become said hater hating on haters for hate hating. They say its not what it is, but it do.
Precisely. I think some people in this thread are being unnecessarily harsh on the OP. He's not suggesting that UM are the worst Space Marine Chapter. He's not saying BA and CSM are fine. No-one is. I'd like BA and CSM to be brought to the same level as much as the next guy. However, I'll leave that complaining to the people who play that faction, as they do a wonderful job of making discussions like this all about them. It's not unreasonable to point out that a faction is receiving less love. With UM receiving NOTHING unique to them, I can see why it would leave a bad taste in one's mouth. I think those of you being harsh to the OP is a little unwarranted.
@Crazyterran
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Crazyterran wrote:And the only one who didn't need a buff was White Scars, and they got the Hunter's Eye. (Yes, I know that they got them with Kauyon) I mean, seriously, buffing White Scars?
Ultramarines relics would've been nice, even if it was a mediocre banner, a Legatine Axe, and a few other random things.
At the end of the day, I can't really complain as an Ultramarines player, I got a ton more choices to build an army around.
To be honest, one could even make a case for Iron Hands not needing the buff as well. But basically this. Considering UM are GW's poster boys and one of the most famous Chapters in the 41st Millenium, you'd think that GW would give them some Relics and a Warlord Trait list. UM weren't overpowered, they weren't underpowered. But when Chapters like White Scars get extra stuff alongside every other chapter, except UM - I think one would have a reason to be a little miffed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/09 10:17:34
IllumiNini wrote:I haven't thought about whether or or not the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics are the most competitive, but the point still stands that Ultramarines don't need any buffs or new content. I'm more curious as to why they thing they actually do need anything? But given you ignored my last question, I don't expect an answer let alone a good answer.
And on a side note, Black Templars really didn't get anything since, based on the quick read-through I did a couple of weeks ago, all they got was a Warlord Traits Table they got in a previous WD Issue and a piece of fluff you can find online.
So why did White Scars get new stuff, when they are arguably the most OP of the vanilla chapters? Did they need buffs? If you can justify WS getting Relics and whatnot, then I can justify UM getting them.
Just because BT didn't get anything (which is just as bad as the UM issue) doesn't mean UM didn't lose out on Relics and Warlord Traits.
All I said was that Ultramarines did not need any buffs or new content. I never said that the White Scars should have got new stuff and I never said that the White Scars were not (overly) powerful. The OP was whinging about Ultramarines not getting anything when they already had so much. I responding by saying that the Ultramarines didn't get bone and gave Black Templars as an example of a Chapter that actually got boned by the supplement. That being said, it is disappointing that Ultramarines didn't get a set of unique relics and warlord traits, but I'd hardly call that being boned when you consider everything else that they already have.
IllumiNini wrote:I haven't thought about whether or or not the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics are the most competitive, but the point still stands that Ultramarines don't need any buffs or new content. I'm more curious as to why they thing they actually do need anything? But given you ignored my last question, I don't expect an answer let alone a good answer.
And on a side note, Black Templars really didn't get anything since, based on the quick read-through I did a couple of weeks ago, all they got was a Warlord Traits Table they got in a previous WD Issue and a piece of fluff you can find online.
So why did White Scars get new stuff, when they are arguably the most OP of the vanilla chapters? Did they need buffs? If you can justify WS getting Relics and whatnot, then I can justify UM getting them.
Just because BT didn't get anything (which is just as bad as the UM issue) doesn't mean UM didn't lose out on Relics and Warlord Traits.
All I said was that Ultramarines did not need any buffs or new content. I never said that the White Scars should have got new stuff and I never said that the White Scars were not (overly) powerful. The OP was whinging about Ultramarines not getting anything when they already had so much. I responding by saying that the Ultramarines didn't get bone and gave Black Templars as an example of a Chapter that actually got boned by the supplement. That being said, it is disappointing that Ultramarines didn't get a set of unique relics and warlord traits, but I'd hardly call that being boned when you consider everything else that they already have.
Well, as BA and CSM are worse, one could make the point that BT don't need anything. /devil's advocate
However, you have also failed to justify why White Scars got buffs. OP has a reason to complain when WS are arguably so much better, and STILL got a buff.
Again - I'm not saying UM are boned. I'm saying it sucks that they received nothing unique to them with the AoD supplement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/09 10:39:24
I don't think I jave to justify it at all. The OP said that Ultramarines got boned (which I disagree with). If the OP had gone into more depth such as "I disagree the fact that White Scars got buffs and Ultramarines didn't", then I would address the White Scars. But all the OP said was "Ultramarines got boned and I wasted my money", so I have no inherent need to justify the buffs to the White Scars.
IllumiNini wrote: I don't think I jave to justify it at all. The OP said that Ultramarines got boned (which I disagree with). If the OP had gone into more depth such as "I disagree the fact that White Scars got buffs and Ultramarines didn't", then I would address the White Scars. But all the OP said was "Ultramarines got boned and I wasted my money", so I have no inherent need to justify the buffs to the White Scars.
So why do you ask the OP to justify if the UM need anything when you can't do it yourself? Seems a little unfair to ask that IMHO.
IllumiNini wrote: I don't think I jave to justify it at all. The OP said that Ultramarines got boned (which I disagree with). If the OP had gone into more depth such as "I disagree the fact that White Scars got buffs and Ultramarines didn't", then I would address the White Scars. But all the OP said was "Ultramarines got boned and I wasted my money", so I have no inherent need to justify the buffs to the White Scars.
So why do you ask the OP to justify if the UM need anything when you can't do it yourself? Seems a little unfair to ask that IMHO.
So Im asking the OP to justify why he thinks the Ultramarines need a buffs (which is something I disagree with) and now all of a sudden I'm being unfair on the OP because I'm refusing to justify the White Scars getting buffs (which I also disagree) on your request? That makes no sense to me...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/09 11:10:49
