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Franarok wrote:
As a csm I found that complain funny Hahaha.

They let marines put bikes as lines, they gave amazing op formations, they gave the op gravitons, try could do immortals IC, lot of bb and chapters rules to mix... And few after the joke of black legion supplements, marines got a bunch of new "toys" and the only think they still didn't copy and improved from chaos: their own four gods disciplines. And that disciplines are, of course, better than chaos ones haha.

So for gw is logic release a bad supplement to improve a bad codex (case of csm and ork codex and their new supplements) and a amazing supplement and new op powers to improve one of the best codex... And space marines players still complain? Yeahhhhh xD

And, to make it more funny, then release the flyers book with, of course, new op plane for marines. Aaaaaand new formations to everyone, but no for csm!!

Sorry, usually I don't care or not take so bad this kind of stuff, but the situation on csm lately looks a bad joke

IMO it exposes which armies the design staff actually play. They really don't know what to do with Chaos or understand the problem because they don't play them.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Franarok wrote:
As a csm I found that complain funny Hahaha.

They let marines put bikes as lines, they gave amazing op formations, they gave the op gravitons, try could do immortals IC, lot of bb and chapters rules to mix... And few after the joke of black legion supplements, marines got a bunch of new "toys" and the only think they still didn't copy and improved from chaos: their own four gods disciplines. And that disciplines are, of course, better than chaos ones haha.

So for gw is logic release a bad supplement to improve a bad codex (case of csm and ork codex and their new supplements) and a amazing supplement and new op powers to improve one of the best codex... And space marines players still complain? Yeahhhhh xD

And, to make it more funny, then release the flyers book with, of course, new op plane for marines. Aaaaaand new formations to everyone, but no for csm!!

Sorry, usually I don't care or not take so bad this kind of stuff, but the situation on csm lately looks a bad joke

IMO it exposes which armies the design staff actually play. They really don't know what to do with Chaos or understand the problem because they don't play them.

I don't think you need to play Chaos to understand their problems.

pm713 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Franarok wrote:
As a csm I found that complain funny Hahaha.

They let marines put bikes as lines, they gave amazing op formations, they gave the op gravitons, try could do immortals IC, lot of bb and chapters rules to mix... And few after the joke of black legion supplements, marines got a bunch of new "toys" and the only think they still didn't copy and improved from chaos: their own four gods disciplines. And that disciplines are, of course, better than chaos ones haha.

So for gw is logic release a bad supplement to improve a bad codex (case of csm and ork codex and their new supplements) and a amazing supplement and new op powers to improve one of the best codex... And space marines players still complain? Yeahhhhh xD

And, to make it more funny, then release the flyers book with, of course, new op plane for marines. Aaaaaand new formations to everyone, but no for csm!!

Sorry, usually I don't care or not take so bad this kind of stuff, but the situation on csm lately looks a bad joke

IMO it exposes which armies the design staff actually play. They really don't know what to do with Chaos or understand the problem because they don't play them.

I don't think you need to play Chaos to understand their problems.

You at least have to have exposure to them and their problems though. I rarely play against Chaos, so although I know they have an outdated codex, I've no idea what's actually making them so under powered.

 General Kroll wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Franarok wrote:
As a csm I found that complain funny Hahaha.

They let marines put bikes as lines, they gave amazing op formations, they gave the op gravitons, try could do immortals IC, lot of bb and chapters rules to mix... And few after the joke of black legion supplements, marines got a bunch of new "toys" and the only think they still didn't copy and improved from chaos: their own four gods disciplines. And that disciplines are, of course, better than chaos ones haha.

So for gw is logic release a bad supplement to improve a bad codex (case of csm and ork codex and their new supplements) and a amazing supplement and new op powers to improve one of the best codex... And space marines players still complain? Yeahhhhh xD

And, to make it more funny, then release the flyers book with, of course, new op plane for marines. Aaaaaand new formations to everyone, but no for csm!!

Sorry, usually I don't care or not take so bad this kind of stuff, but the situation on csm lately looks a bad joke

IMO it exposes which armies the design staff actually play. They really don't know what to do with Chaos or understand the problem because they don't play them.

I don't think you need to play Chaos to understand their problems.

You at least have to have exposure to them and their problems though. I rarely play against Chaos, so although I know they have an outdated codex, I've no idea what's actually making them so under powered.

I agree with that. Although arguably all you'd have to do is interact with your community more to find the problems.

They should've gotten their own Formation Detachment and Relics, but oh well.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement?

You've already got your own codex, let the little guys have some fun.

And don't forget you got cataphractii and contemptor rules, and I'm pretty sure any chapter may use those formations in there.

That is not true. SM codex has all of the chapters in AOD special rules. UM are the only chapter that didn't get a special formation in AOD. Truthfully they are totally boned and competitively are an unplayable chapter. Why? Because gladius effectively gives everyone ultramarine chapter tactics for free! Ultramarines get no benefit from have double the doctrines to call as most games are over in 4 turns anyways. The good news is you can use whatever tactics you want regardless of how you painted you marines. Personally I use IH tactics. However I am painted like a smurf.

Alright Chumps. Let's do this. Leeeeeroooooooooooooy...............

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:*Looks into thread. Reads about Ultramarine player complaining that they didn't get even more shiny formations and toys. Shakes head sadly.*

Ultramarines have more special characters in comparison to any other CSM chapter - Calgar, Tiberius, Sicarius, Telion and Chronus - all contained within the core book. They're widely acknowledged as the Poster Boys - to such an extent that not only do they have more characters - but these characters are regarded as being better than other chapter equivalents and it has been joked that C:SM is Codex Ultramarines.

And how many of these special characters are viable? Sicarius? Certainly not. Calgar? Land Raider pricing. Chronus? How many points just to get BS5?
The 7th ed codex is far more equal than any codex I remember. 5th really did seem to be C:UM* - but it really is far better now. It's not perfect, but it could be worse.

*Oops?

Angels of Death is a supplement that expands on the OTHER chapters who merely get a mention in the main book so that they don't feel completely shafted.

White Scars. That's all I'm saying.

And...you're complaining Ultramarines didn't get more toys?

I'm complaining that they didn't get so much as a relic unique to them, or some Warlord Traits. And that you seem to think that because they're plain (which is false) they shouldn't get anything special.

You got the disciplines (to use on your superior psyker), you got more formations and you got another decurion detachment as well as 3 'new' units.

You got the same disciplines. Only BT lost out on that. BT should have received something to compensate.
You get the same formations.
We got no special Decurion.
The three units only exist because of BaC. Not to mention that I could take Contemptors via FW anyways. Besides, those special units can be Scouted up by Khan - a unit we can't get.

You know the reason every Marine thread gets 'But Blood Angels are worse?'

Because they are. They suffer from a change in codex direction taking place just after their codex - no fancy decurions or formations for them, save the bandaid formations in Shield of Baal.

But yeah, seeing a UM player complaining they didn't get (even more) shiny toys is kind of salt in the wound for Blood Angels who missed the fancy Decurion and Formation train.

And a red rag to CSM players who basically got to watch Loyallist marines get buffed beyond them twice.

Yeah. Undeniably. But every other vanilla chapter got more too - no need to discriminate against UM players. I'm not denying BA and CSM suck. They shouldn't, and I'd want them to be made equal to their 'nilla cousins.

But screaming "BA HAVE IT WORSE" doesn't mean that UM didn't receive any specific love. As long as you acknowledge that fact, I'd be happy.

@DarkStarSabre (again)

DarkStarSabre wrote:Most do. But then you get the handful, including the OP for this thread who cannot comprehend why they do not get even more shiny toys, or actually have to think to deal with Tau and Eldar armies and cannot just push models across a table and win through stacked stathammer.

You get the handful who seem to believe that CSM being neglected for so long is karma for the 3.5 CSM book while conveniently forgetting the era it existed in where SM, Tau, Eldar, Tyranids and Orks (toward the end of its lifespan) were all pretty ridiculous as well.

I've been told on Dakka that CSM 3.5 and/or Lash of Submission (the only oddity in a god awful and bland 5th ed CSM codex) RUINED 40K FOREVER.

Angels of Death as a supplement was a slap in the face for CSM and Blood Angels - CSM because we not only got completely ignored in all GW's determination to talk about Space Marines and Power Armour (spoiler, we're a type of Space Marine too guys, why you ignore us?) but we got rather poor reprint of some lacklustre supplements with refurbished dataslate and Apocalypse formations thrown in like that was supposed to make everything better - that didn't even bother to try and give us a Decurion style detachment (ala Farsight Enclaves and Waaagh Ghazghkull) and Blood Angels because it further emphasises the gulf between them and every other SM book.

Understandably this thread made me sigh. Some people just don't have any idea about any other part of the game. 'It has an Ultramarine on the cover.' Well, yes, of course it does. Ultramarines are the standard staple Codex marine Chapter. They're generic. They're deliberately generic. So naturally their artwork is on everything and its dog relating to Space Marines.

It doesn't mean that everything is going to be Ultramarines ++. That's really not their intended purpose. You want Ultramarines to NOT be a generic chapter? Go play 30k where each Legion gets its own unique rules.

Firstly, I think you're being unnecessarily hard on the OP. They haven't said CSM or BA shouldn't be buffed. They merely wanted their own Chapter to be treated the same as the others - which is exactly what the BA players ask for. The only difference is that UM aren't (thankfully) in the same position. Just because someone is worse off than you doesn't stop you complaining - if it were so, then either BA or CSM wouldn't have a right to complain, as they both can't be worst.

AoD did suck - it easily COULD have buffed BA and made them a viable force. I'm disappointed they didn't, and I do hope as much as the next BA player that they make the boys in red viable again. But saying that UM are vanilla justifies their lack of Relics and Warlord Traits is not fair either.

We're not saying other Chapters are UM++. But saying UM are the generic Chapter is wrong too - these are (pardon my quote) "the paragons of what a Space Marine should be" (really, Ward? Way to ruin our reputation). The point stands. UM are not the baseline - they are the baseline mastered. They shouldn't have a new Gladius - they should be best at using the Gladius.

Also, your 30k comment can be taken the other way too. "You want BA to be playable? Go play 30k where they're actually playable."
"You want to play proper Iron Warriors? Go play 30k where they actually get their own unique rules."

Still want to use that argument?

DarkStarSabre wrote:I wish to make the following point.

You are playing the chapter that is deliberately designed to be the most generic and vanilla Chapter in the game. They are the poster boys. They are the chapter that you can technically use any formation for and essentially was designed as the vanilla base that other chapters deviated from.

In 2nd ed. the Space Marine codex was Codex: Ultramarines. It was even named as such. You are the vanilla ice cream of the Space Marine world.

Even in fluff and background - you are vanilla. This is intentional. Your primarch wrote the Codex Astartes. Your chapter sticks to it. It is law.

But other chapters? They deviate - in lore, in fluff, in background they have distinct fighting styles, chapter structures and traitrs that the generic flavour of C:SM does not quite enable. This is why they got these extra formations, why they got these decurions and why they got shiny toys in the supplement.

You an make your army functional with your Codex alone.

They have to buy another book to do it correctly.

I'm sorry, I forgot that you developed the UM for GW. Could we see some quotes from GW designers to back up your statement?

Who cares about 2nd Ed? I means nothing now. If we're using prior codexes to fuel some kind of vendetta, then you've admitted that Chaos should be bad now. Which they should not be.

Yes, UM are shown to be "by the book". However, it's also written that they are the "masters of the Codex Astartes" - why are they no better at using the Gladius (the vanilla formation) than any other Chapter? If you wanted to support this, the UM would be better at the basic formation, and other Chapters would have specialised Gladii.

Your logic seems to be "UM are the vanilla Chapter, so it's okay that everyone else should be UM+1". That is not okay.

Also - White Scars are perfectly playable in the base codex.

First - quantity does not equal quality friend. You cannot argue that the Ultramarines are more heavily represented in the core SM codex than any other chapter - in terms of numbers of characters, background material and even display miniaures and colour schemes. That is the point I made and that point still stands. Whether or not their characters are truly viable or not is another matter altogether. That has no impact on their representation as a whole. You can open the book and spot 6 UM SCs - the next closest is ironically BTs with Grimaldus and Helbrecht. 6 to 2. Everyone else gets 1. If that's not an indicator of who is the poster chapter then I do not know what is. And when you consider the OP's original issue was 'It has an ultramarine on the cover' - well that's the reason. UMs are the SM poster boys. They're the generic staple SM. So naturally their art is going to be used. Their army is going to be displayed. Even in the background the UM are the Space Marine-iest Space Marines that ever did Space Marine. Their primarch wrote ye old book of Space Marines and that's always been their sticking point. They are repeatedly stated as having the most successor chapters of any of the original Legions and their virtues are harped so much that the background is one giant UM lovefest. Heck, they even had more model-less SCs than any other chapter at one point as well.

Second - White Scars is not a counter point to anything. In fact, your later complaints regarding Blood Angels and CSM seem remarkably hypocritical when you try to make a rebuttal like this. Shot yourself in the foot, you just did.

Third - I'll happily state that Warlord Traits or relics probably wouldn't have gone amiss. But I wouldn't state they needed a whole Decurion formation of their very own - that sort of defeats the point of them being so very adherent to the Codex Astartes. Every other chapter there, though technically compliant have deviated from the Codex Astartes - White Scars and Raven Guard with their combat styles, Black Templars, Iron Hands and Salamanders go as far as breaking Chapter structure and set up. The oddity to me is Imperial Fists who pretty much also seemed like they were meant to be intentionally as bland as the UMs.

Also, CSM didn't get any of those Disciplines. Or formations. Tsk.

Fourth - We knew AoD was going to be a SM specific supplement. Expecting it to buff BA? Nope. They're a standalone codex. You do not expect a supplement for another Codex to buff your own - that's just common sense mate. I think the closest chance BA had was Shield of Baal but unfortunately that was also just before the design direction switched to Decurion/Formation stacks and away from the traditional FOC approach (which is what DE, GK, Orks, IG, BA and SW originally got in their books - SW got the update to add a Decurion with Fenris and the Orks and IG got their decurion options from Kauyon and a supplement update).

Once more - Warlord Traits or Relics? I'd have been fine with. A Decurion that essentially opens up options for a playstyle that deviates from the Codex Astartes? No no no. That is not the UM way. Only going to meet you halfway there.

Fifth - Your 30k snippet there. Cute.

Codex CSM - 3.5. Black Legion were the generic Legion - this was represented by them being able to use anything from the codex. In that respect Black Legion were the Chaos equivalent of the Ultramarines - able to use anything from their book, no restrictions, jack of all trades but master of none approach.

Iron Warriors - who you imply are a 'generic' Chaos Legion...hoo boy. Had their own page of rules to allow players to construct an Iron Warriors army. It restricted their options - they lost Daemons (which were very potent at the time), they lost Marks of Chaos (which were used to make the Cult units) and in return they got Siege Specialists, access to Servo arms, an altered FOC and less restrictive access to Obliterators. For the record, they were never a generic Chaos Legion. If you're going to try to make that comparison please make sure you get your facts straight.

In fact, the 3.5 book gave all the Legions these mini-pages to allow varied forces to be made. But that went with the following codex.

You forget that CSM don't have a Chapter Tactics equivalent - you know, those bonus little rules that allow you to represent your chosen chapter so that your Tactical Marine is different from their Tactical Marine.

Sixth - EYYYY. We're now at ad-hominen attacks on my person. Well done.

Who cares about 2nd ed? Well, all that background you love, all that fun fluff and lore all came from 2nd ed. 2nd ed is the edition that made 40k into what it is. It's where most of the armies developed and formed. In fact, back in the older WDs they acknowledge the 2nd ed miniatures were the primary design influences for...all the Eldar Aspect Warriors (they deviated in 3rd and went back toward the 2nd ed. Aesthetic in 3rd) and Tyranids (the current Hive Tyrant design is a nod toward the 2nd ed. Tyrant after the 3rd ed. Alien Queen approach). Hilariously enough the more recent limited SM character releases (Centos and the web exclusive Captains) are updated 2nd ed designs - as was 4th ed DA captain and the GD Blood Angel Sergeant who is a homage to the 2nd ed cover art.

2nd ed. gave us the seeds for Inquisition armies and Ad-Mech armies (they were a handful of units in the core books) and introduced Sisters of Battle and Necrons into 40k proper.

In fact, the only factions who probably don't care about 2nd ed or any of the lore from it would be Tau and Dark Eldar to be frank.

But hey, who cares about 2nd ed, right?

Oh, and by the way - 2nd ed. also described the various fighting styles of the Chapters - it's like that background is the basis for the variation we see today.




...... JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENKINS!

 6^ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

You don't know me, you don't know my style of play. I think it's unfair for you to make that criticism. I play for fluff not for power FYI.

The amount of times I hear "Play for fluff" from Marine players and see their "fluffy Marine armies" that just happen to be composed of the most powerful and broken combinations within their codex is laughable.

Vanilla Space Marines did not need a buff. They did not need this supplement and they sure as hell did not need Geomancy which, lets be honest here, should be Chaos only.
So what Ultramarines did not get everything, thats life. Thems the breaks kiddo.

As someone else once said in another thread:

Because woe betide that SM players would ever have to apply more than brute force

 master of ordinance wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

You don't know me, you don't know my style of play. I think it's unfair for you to make that criticism. I play for fluff not for power FYI.

The amount of times I hear "Play for fluff" from Marine players and see their "fluffy Marine armies" that just happen to be composed of the most powerful and broken combinations within their codex is laughable.

Vanilla Space Marines did not need a buff. They did not need this supplement and they sure as hell did not need Geomancy which, lets be honest here, should be Chaos only.
So what Ultramarines did not get everything, thats life. Thems the breaks kiddo.

As someone else once said in another thread:

Because woe betide that SM players would ever have to apply more than brute force

Man, how's that axe your grinding? Did a Space Marine player walk over and break all your models?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement?

You've already got your own codex, let the little guys have some fun.

And don't forget you got cataphractii and contemptor rules, and I'm pretty sure any chapter may use those formations in there.

Truthfully they are totally boned and competitively are an unplayable chapter.

Now I'm no expert on tournament winners or lists but I can bet a good sum that Ultra's aren't an "unplayable chapter". Every turn tactical doctrine or dev doctrine or whatever it is sounds good to me. Not to mention the general power level of the SM codex, and Tigurius is a good choice too. "unplayable" my arse

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement?

You've already got your own codex, let the little guys have some fun.

And don't forget you got cataphractii and contemptor rules, and I'm pretty sure any chapter may use those formations in there.

Truthfully they are totally boned and competitively are an unplayable chapter.

Now I'm no expert on tournament winners or lists but I can bet a good sum that Ultra's aren't an "unplayable chapter". Every turn tactical doctrine or dev doctrine or whatever it is sounds good to me. Not to mention the general power level of the SM codex, and Tigurius is a good choice too. "unplayable" my arse

Ultramarines are still strong, but trust me, they're no tournament winner. The new tournament winners are some combination of Iron Hands Librarians on bikes, Ravenwing bikes, White Scars bikes, and Thunderwolf Cavalry. I haven't seen UM at a tournament in a while.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

You don't know me, you don't know my style of play. I think it's unfair for you to make that criticism. I play for fluff not for power FYI.

The amount of times I hear "Play for fluff" from Marine players and see their "fluffy Marine armies" that just happen to be composed of the most powerful and broken combinations within their codex is laughable.

Vanilla Space Marines did not need a buff. They did not need this supplement and they sure as hell did not need Geomancy which, lets be honest here, should be Chaos only.
So what Ultramarines did not get everything, thats life. Thems the breaks kiddo.

As someone else once said in another thread:

Because woe betide that SM players would ever have to apply more than brute force

Man, how's that axe your grinding? Did a Space Marine player walk over and break all your models?

Or perhaps I am fed up of being smashed almost every time I play. If I try to push objectives I get mown down and massacred and if I instead try to hold I still get brutalised but my opponent also claims obscene amounts of victory points. because I cannot contest him.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 6^ wrote:
Am I missing something or did Ultramarine get boned in this supplement?

You've already got your own codex, let the little guys have some fun.

And don't forget you got cataphractii and contemptor rules, and I'm pretty sure any chapter may use those formations in there.

Truthfully they are totally boned and competitively are an unplayable chapter.

Now I'm no expert on tournament winners or lists but I can bet a good sum that Ultra's aren't an "unplayable chapter". Every turn tactical doctrine or dev doctrine or whatever it is sounds good to me. Not to mention the general power level of the SM codex, and Tigurius is a good choice too. "unplayable" my arse

The point im trying to make is that gladius is the best way to run space marines right now and gladius effectively gives you the ultramarines tactics. They don't stack with ultramarines because of this. If White scars or IH play gladius they effectively has 2 chapter tactics. Thats much better than one. Tiguris is awesome but doesn't really fit in or have anything useful to do in gladius plus he is not on a bike.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

You don't know me, you don't know my style of play. I think it's unfair for you to make that criticism. I play for fluff not for power FYI.

The amount of times I hear "Play for fluff" from Marine players and see their "fluffy Marine armies" that just happen to be composed of the most powerful and broken combinations within their codex is laughable.

Vanilla Space Marines did not need a buff. They did not need this supplement and they sure as hell did not need Geomancy which, lets be honest here, should be Chaos only.
So what Ultramarines did not get everything, thats life. Thems the breaks kiddo.

As someone else once said in another thread:

Because woe betide that SM players would ever have to apply more than brute force

Man, how's that axe your grinding? Did a Space Marine player walk over and break all your models?

Or perhaps I am fed up of being smashed almost every time I play. If I try to push objectives I get mown down and massacred and if I instead try to hold I still get brutalised but my opponent also claims obscene amounts of victory points. because I cannot contest him.

What army do you play?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Translation:
"Waa, muh bwue marinez dont get all da op as feth gak now, just most of it"

You don't know me, you don't know my style of play. I think it's unfair for you to make that criticism. I play for fluff not for power FYI.

The amount of times I hear "Play for fluff" from Marine players and see their "fluffy Marine armies" that just happen to be composed of the most powerful and broken combinations within their codex is laughable.

Vanilla Space Marines did not need a buff. They did not need this supplement and they sure as hell did not need Geomancy which, lets be honest here, should be Chaos only.
So what Ultramarines did not get everything, thats life. Thems the breaks kiddo.

As someone else once said in another thread:

Because woe betide that SM players would ever have to apply more than brute force

Man, how's that axe your grinding? Did a Space Marine player walk over and break all your models?

Or perhaps I am fed up of being smashed almost every time I play. If I try to push objectives I get mown down and massacred and if I instead try to hold I still get brutalised but my opponent also claims obscene amounts of victory points. because I cannot contest him.

I'm convinced you have no idea what you are doing. IG is actually one of the BETTER lists against the Gladius, because of mass autocannon/multilaser spam. You don't have to worry about gladius shooting you off the time. Skyhammer can be gamed against as well. I know, because I do it with the lowly BA. Invisible deathstars and things like smashfucker are where it gets ugly for you. Even then, you only need one stubbon squad to potentially neuter smashfucker. Drop pod attacks against guard usually end up costing the marines more than they kill if you don't use Russ hulls.

IG suffers more against Tau and Eldar, because they play the IG game, but better. Much better. Marines are playing a different angle that is not nearly as bad for IG.

EnTyme wrote:

What army do you play?

Imperial Guard. Currently second/third from the bottom in terms of strength.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm convinced you have no idea what you are doing. IG is actually one of the BETTER lists against the Gladius, because of mass autocannon/multilaser spam. You don't have to worry about gladius shooting you off the time. Skyhammer can be gamed against as well.

Skyhammer can be prevented? Guard can crack Gladius like eggs? Just what kind of Guard players are you up against Martel - are you sure that they are bringing equal points to you?

They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

No need to be rude, Martel. Try constructive criticism for a change and see where it leads you.

master of ordinance, IG armored lists can generally make short work of the Gladius, particularly LRBTs and Pasknisher lists. The draft FAQ confirmed that only one grenade can be used per phase, including the assault phase, so you shouldn't be too worried about Skyhammers with an armored list, either.

Martel732 wrote:
They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

Or.... Vanilla marines are hideously overpowered. Note that I never mentioned CSM. Nids can run MC spam lists and Flyrants, both of which beat IG hands down and DA are still powerful.

 master of ordinance wrote:

EnTyme wrote:

What army do you play?

Imperial Guard. Currently second/third from the bottom in terms of strength.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm convinced you have no idea what you are doing. IG is actually one of the BETTER lists against the Gladius, because of mass autocannon/multilaser spam. You don't have to worry about gladius shooting you off the time. Skyhammer can be gamed against as well.

Skyhammer can be prevented? Guard can crack Gladius like eggs? Just what kind of Guard players are you up against Martel - are you sure that they are bringing equal points to you?

Ask your friend to tone down their lists. If you're in a tourney, I have no sympathy for you, as tournies are supposed to be all out slug fests.

Guard can actually do well against Gladius. LRBT can put out a bunch of pie plates. Skyhammer is tougher. The only thing I'd say is try to bubble wrap your tanks with Conscripts to deny assaults and give some cover against MultiMeltas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

Or.... Vanilla marines are hideously overpowered. Note that I never mentioned CSM. Nids can run MC spam lists and Flyrants, both of which beat IG hands down and DA are still powerful.

As are Eldar and Tau. Your point?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

Or.... Vanilla marines are hideously overpowered. Note that I never mentioned CSM. Nids can run MC spam lists and Flyrants, both of which beat IG hands down and DA are still powerful.

IG have the firepower to gun down foot Nids for sure, and hydras are quite viable, especially once the new flyer rules get rolled in 8th. BA and CSM lack the firepower of IG, and their MCs ignore all of our expensive armor. IT's a much worse matchup for us.

Vanilla marines are not hideously overpowered because my games against them are much more competitive than Eldar or Tau. They just have the tools to outlast the Eldar/Tau. You can kill Gladius with IG. I've watched it done. And neither side rolled very poorly or well. 12 autocannons and 8 multilasers kill the gak out of Rhino hulls.

@ master of ordinance
If you are having trouble with marines may I suggest a few things? I've had my arse handed to me so many times by IG I can't even count. LR executioner (IMO this is an auto include for IG - take at least 2 vs everyone 75% of the time you are playing an army that this thing absolutely murders). Then take a unit of 3 wyverns. The rest of your army should be infantry - with lots of plasma and melta. Vets/platoon - both good options. Take a unit of 30 conscripts with a commissar and a psyker fishing for 4+ invo save or invis to tie up a deathstar. You will win more than you lose with this list vs a marine army.

 Xenomancers wrote:
@ master of ordinance
If you are having trouble with marines may I suggest a few things? I've had my arse handed to me so many times by IG I can't even count. LR executioner (IMO this is an auto include for IG - take at least 2 vs everyone 75% of the time you are playing an army that this thing absolutely murders). Then take a unit of 3 wyverns. The rest of your army should be infantry - with lots of plasma and melta. Vets/platoon - both good options. Take a unit of 30 conscripts with a commissar and a psyker fishing for 4+ invo save or invis to tie up a deathstar. You will win more than you lose with this list vs a marine army.

Or go with 6 X divination psykers and no Russes. That is actually brutal in practice for marines.

You can go that route with blob gayrd like 450 rending lasgun shots a turn? This hurts a lot actually.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You can go that route with blob gayrd like 450 rending lasgun shots a turn? This hurts a lot actually.

Giving large squads 4++, the full BS overwatch, rerolls to hit, and access to rending are all huge. Divination is hands down awesomesauce for IG.

 6^ wrote:
Alright dude, I don't need you to patronize me. I feel like I got tricked right now for buying this. I feel like a bought a supplement for an army I don't play. That's what I'm upset about.

Why didn't you have a flick through the book before you bought it? The 3rd edition Codex: Space Wolves had some Orks on the front cover, but I didn't just up and buy it for my Orks...

Besides which, you're making out like there is literally nothing new or usable for UM players which is just incorrect.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

Or.... Vanilla marines are hideously overpowered. Note that I never mentioned CSM. Nids can run MC spam lists and Flyrants, both of which beat IG hands down and DA are still powerful.

Vanilla Marines aren't "hideously OP". Some of the bullgak we can pull off is OP, but we are far from Eldar and Tau levels of silliness. Perhaps you should see about removing the chip from your shoulder? As another Guard player I don't have that hard of a time against Gladius

 Xenomancers wrote:
You can go that route with blob gayrd like 450 rending lasgun shots a turn? This hurts a lot actually.

Not really. That requires and investment of 185 points for the Infantry plus another 50 for a single ML 1 Primaris psyker, and given that you will want more than one bite at the cherry to have a chance of getting the rending power you will want him to be ML 2 costing another 25 points. And maybe a second psyker just to be sure, another 50 points.
So now we have a 310 point unit that, within 12" and assuming it passes its LD checks and the psykers get the right powers and they get them off, can put out 450 rending Lasgun shots.
Assuming your opponent lets it live long enough to make it to 12", after all it lacks the ability to take transports and is too large to take advantage of any cover and will be mown down by Bolters.
And assuming that your opponent does not just use a Precision Shot unit to kill the Officer.
Or the Psykers.

I really do not know why you Marine players seem to think that blobguard is a threat, in this age of powerhammer 40K it really is not.

 War Kitten wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They know what they are doing. Unlike what I gather from you.

BA, csm, Nids, de, and orks are all worse off than ig. It's still a shooting army in a shooting edition. If you cripple yourself with bad lists, that's very anecdotal.

Or.... Vanilla marines are hideously overpowered. Note that I never mentioned CSM. Nids can run MC spam lists and Flyrants, both of which beat IG hands down and DA are still powerful.

Vanilla Marines aren't "hideously OP". Some of the bullgak we can pull off is OP, but we are far from Eldar and Tau levels of silliness. Perhaps you should see about removing the chip from your shoulder? As another Guard player I don't have that hard of a time against Gladius

Nothing says OP like T3 infantry costing anything between the price of a Marine and twice that.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You can go that route with blob gayrd like 450 rending lasgun shots a turn? This hurts a lot actually.

Not really. That requires and investment of 185 points for the Infantry plus another 50 for a single ML 1 Primaris psyker, and given that you will want more than one bite at the cherry to have a chance of getting the rending power you will want him to be ML 2 costing another 25 points. And maybe a second psyker just to be sure, another 50 points.
So now we have a 310 point unit that, within 12" and assuming it passes its LD checks and the psykers get the right powers and they get them off, can put out 450 rending Lasgun shots.
Assuming your opponent lets it live long enough to make it to 12", after all it lacks the ability to take transports and is too large to take advantage of any cover and will be mown down by Bolters.
And assuming that your opponent does not just use a Precision Shot unit to kill the Officer.
Or the Psykers.

I really do not know why you Marine players seem to think that blobguard is a threat, in this age of powerhammer 40K it really is not.

Just because you can't pull it off, doesn't mean it's not a threat. The number of psykers you use is six. Or at minimum, four. It's not just about misfortune. It's about unit buffs hitting huge numbers of models on top of orders. If you have a perfect timing psyker, you can then use your order to get twin linked vs vehicles. Gladius is not known for psyker defense. This combo ends gladius shenanigans pretty quickly. Quit using overcosted Russ hulls and you'll have points for this.

"er and will be mown down by Bolters. "

Nothing gets mowed down by bolters, especially if it has a 4++ save. A full spread of 10 bolters in rapid fire range kills a massive six guardsmen in 5++ cover. The marines will NEVER win at that rate. This goes down to 4.5 guardsmen with a 4++ save. Do math. It works.