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Ok! I'll give this a shot.

ROUND 1: Matchup #1: CSM versus SM.

CSM units: Terminator Lord, 10x CSM, Helbrute
SM units: Terminator Captain, 10x Marines, Venerable Dread

Deployment: Dawn of War, 4'x4'
Primary Mission: The Relic (Win - 12pts, Draw - 6pts, Loss - 0pts)
Secondary Mission: 2x Objectives (Win - 12pts, Draw - 6pts, Loss - 0pts)
Tertiary Mission: Warlord, 1st Blood, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Relic is centralized in a 12" courtyard surrounded by Ruins. 2x Objectives are in opposing deployment zones. Moderate LOS screening
Modifiers: Helbrute has 4A (as per "Roused to War" FAQ), all Formation Special rules are in use. Use the Draft FAQs!
Constraints: Box contents only (so no Grav Cannon), only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades, Forgeworld may not be used

The SM Tactical Squad has the unique ability to Combat Squad. Half their team can control their backfield and plink away with their Missile Launcher, which is incidentally their only box option. The other half of the squad can advance on foot with a Special Weapon. Splitting the squad essentially guarantees winning the secondary mission (Objectives).

The CSM Squad cannot split up, and they can't win a long-range firefight, so they need to concentrate on the Relic primary and hope to draw the divided Tactical Marines into CC. They do get 2x Specials which is a little more appropriate for footslogging across the board (but only one of each kind). By far their best advantage is T5 through Mark of Nurgle, which will make anything under S7 much less effective.

The Chaos Lord can take Mark of Nurgle alongside his squad, which means he can't be doubled out by any weapon except the Dread PF. That's decisive because now he can take an offensive relic. Eye of Night = D3 Ignore Cover Pen hits on the Dread. Since it doesn't replace a weapon, the Lord can combine a LC and Chainfist for an extra attack.

The SM Captain risks getting doubled out at T4 by the CSM Lord. Without a Storm Shield to model Shield Eternal, the best Relic to counter this is Gorgon's Chain. Incidentally that determines Chapter Tactics for the SM force. The SM Captain recieves significantly better defense than the CSM Lord, but being limited by the starter set's offensive options, he can't pick up a LC to pair with his PF (stolen from the Tac Marine Sgt).

The SM force can leverage their Formation bonus against the Helbrute, which stands a very unlikely chance of surviving. However, the Ven Dread is completely outclassed by Eye of Night. Both vehicles are priority targets unlikely to last the game, but Eye of Night probably has the advantage in terms of Alpha Striking and First Blood.

CSM already recieve Hatred through VotLW, meaning their Formation bonus is most likely, completely redundant. But if CSM scores First Blood, SM will have to contest the Relic, and it's very likely this game will be decided by CC.

Here's the lists:

Space Marines (Iron Hands) - 520pts
Terminator Captain (185pts) : Gorgon's Chain, Combi-Weapon, PF, MB
Tactical Squad (185pts) : Missile Launcher, Special Weapon, Combi-Weapon, Power Weapon
Venerable Dreadnought (150pts) : TL-Lascannon, PF w/ HF

CSM (Black Legion) - 637pts
Terminator Lord (262pts) : Eye of Night, Mark of Nurgle, Chainfist/LC, Sigil, VotLW
CSM Squad (240pts) : Mark of Nurgle, Meltagun/Plasmagun, Combi-Weapon, Power Fist, VotLW
Helbrute (135pts) : TL-Lascannon, Power Scourge

- Primary : Advantage to CSM (+12)
- Secondary : Advantage to SM (+12)
- Tertiary : Warlord to both (+2 each), First Blood to CSM (+2) Linebreaker to CSM (+2)

Final score: 18 to CSM, 14 to SM.

Projected CSM victory -- CSM advances to Round #2!!

Sum up: It's the Eye of Night and Mark of Nurgle which tip this towards CSM. Without Eye of Night, it would be almost impossible for CSM to disable the Venerable Dread, which would neutralize their CC advantage completely. Luckily, Black Legion has the perfect counter and we aren't balancing with points.

Begin stating your reasons to appeal the decision now!

Exellent batrep yoyoyo!

Good choice of relic for csm.

Is it even necessary to go for lascannon on the helbrute?
If not he can get better options to take out even more space marines.

You are making the terminator captain more dangerous to the helbrute by requisitioning the powerfist, i like it.

Also i am pleased to see Csm win.

Shouldn't the starter box formation also be taken into account in these? Since we are using only what is in the box they automatically qualify for the formation bonus. I know that some of them are not very good, but others can be pretty effective.

In the first turn, it's not difficult to negate the SM Firespear bonus. Stay out of LOS to deny clear fire lines.

In turns 2-3, the SM bonus is going to become very important in destroying the Helbrute. The CSM Lord can tank any incoming missiles on a 2+.

When the SM squad does make contact contesting the Relic, they can do some serious damage by firing everything within RF range (4-5x dead CSM). However, there's a very good chance they'll be charged in the next turn. With T5, Hatred, and +1A from charging, and the CSM Lord having both a LC and I5, it's not looking great!

SM needs the Ven Dread to support their weaker CC ability, but Eye of Night could not be a more perfect counter. The Helbrute Lascannon is insurance to help finish the job.

It's still a dice game, but I think CSM has better tools for this particular mission.

Well really whoever can fit more points into their list will have that advantage in of itself.

Gotta agree you gotta go with the formations; otherwise why not just split the chaos marine in to 2 squads, build one as havocs (or even chosen)?

Definitely limit your force construction to the "Start Collecting" formations and the included box contents.

I was using the Combat Patrol scenarios from Adepticon for my mission format. Here is the link : http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2013/40KCP2.pdf

Any volunteers to wargame the next matchup?

Well, if you get to match your equipment before every match against a known opponent, I doubt any of them can compete with the Tau kit.

The crisis suits are just too versatile, and the kit builds an actual army (ethreal hq, 2x5 FW, 3x1 battlesuit, assortment of drones to scatter around.)

You got a tank/walker? dual fusion suits. you got a flyrant? missile/plasma/VT suits. you got a horde (daemons), burst/missile suit dwindle you down while keeping distance. you got a hidden HQ that causes other units to rez? DS to where he's hidden with plasma/melta to take him out.

How about we use Tau for the next match?

Scenario #1 (Harvest of War)

Deployment - Dawn of War
Primary - Invasion (12pts), most units in enemy board half wins
Secondary - Objectives (12pts), 5x objectives -- 2x in each deployment zone, 1x in middle
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Moderate LOS Screening
Modifiers: Formation Special rules are in use, use the Draft FAQs!
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades, Forgeworld benefits not be used.

According to the formation rules, Tau can only field 3x units to remain legal. That's going to prevent Tau from splitting up into MSU. They need to kill the Stalker, but losing the 3-man Crisis Suit unit will make it almost impossible to have enough board control to win the Primary/Secondary. Drop Melta is a double edged sword.

Necrons have less customization to effectively tailor (the Overlord is a notable exception), but they're simply a strong army. Their formation bonus is going to be amazing as they can just be ultra-aggressive in small games.

Round #1 Matchup #2: Tau versus Necron

Ethereal Honor Guard (Swift Redeployment - reposition one unit within 12" of Ethereal in movement phase)
- 1x Ethereal
- 1x Strike team
- 1x Crisis Suit team

Retribution Phalanx (within 3" of Overlord, may replace eliminated Warrior and Scarab units)
- 1x Overlord
- 1x Warriors
- 1x Scarabs
- 1x Triarch Stalker

Seems like a great matchup, not sure who takes it honestly! Any Tau/Necron players able to sound in?

Tau would not use the formation, the contents make a legal CAD, and it's outright better to do so as the formation bonus is irrelevant.

Overruled!!

This thread is about the starter sets, we definitely want to see the formation special rules in action.

Anyway, if it doesn't feel fair, think about the poor Imperial Guard. They don't stand a chance, lol!

This makes no sense. If you want to test the value of the starter sets then forcing them to use an option they don't have to (like the formation) is no true value comparison.

In tau's case, the formation is holding the starter back. You might want to "see the special rules in action" but the tau formation rule are so pointless even the chaos formation seems better. Heck, forget CAD benefits, even unbound is better than the formation if only to split up the suits.

So in yoyoyo's scenario it seems pretty equal, unless anyone has anything else to say. As he stated his conditions beforehand, those are the parameters he is using. Good scenario, how would you deploy if you guys were playing like this?

Boomwolf has a suggestion to not use the formation, and i think he would be allowed to not use it if he feels like it.

Will this tip the balance in favour of tau?

I am not familiar with the necrons, but I would say the Tau primary objective is to eliminate the Overlord. Once he is dead, the warriors and scarabs will not come back. Then I would assume they would focus the crisis on the Stalker or scarabs so to keep them out of the firewarrior line. But I cannot say how it would go.

Of course if points is no consideration, then I would be maxing out the crisis suits and firewarriors with any options I could.

Would the overlord hide then in a squad then? To preserve the buff.

What would be the necron strategy here?

Hawehu, I'd recommend sticking to the Formations if possible. Deciding if the Tau bonus has any useful applications is exactly the kind of thing we want to learn.

Necron Scarabs are fast enough to function as either a rush unit and DS defense. Tau can counter this with H&R on the Crisis Suits (at I4). Ethereal-boosted Overwatch on the FW team is an effective defense at 100% squad strength, though one Scarab base will make CC. The Scarabs are unlikely to be decisive, they might remove a Tau shooting phase depending on dice rolls. Statistically it's not in their favor.

The Stalker's +1BS buff can only be applied to the Warriors, who don't possess terribly impressive shooting in this match. The Stalker's 24" weaponry is intimidating enough to force a defensive deployment, but after losing Quantum Shielding, even the FW team can destroy it with glances and their S7 turret. Crisis Suit weapons targeting the AV11 rear will be almost impossible to defend against.

The Warriors themselves have no special tricks and are outranged by the Fire Warriors. Tau naturally want to remove the majority of the squad as they advance, then burst down the remaining Warriors and Overlord in a single turn with Markerlights.

The Overlord is the only unit Necrons can customize. With boosted defense, a 2+ Overlord can probably avoid getting killed -- for at least as long as his Res Orb lasts. Alternatively, Deepstriking the Warrior unit into the Tau backfield (Veil of Darkness) can neutralize Tau's range advantage and plays better to the mission. If the Tau can be pinned in their deployment zone, it will probably guarantee a win.

Given passable DS on both sides, what determines this game is if Tau can escape. So can they outrun the Overlord? Considering a 10-man FW unit can span something like 20" laterally -- even more with the drones and Ethereal -- it's almost guaranteed they can get out of charge range. In fact by deploying shield drones against the Stalker, they can even deploy aggressively and try to get into the Necron deployment area by turn 2-3.

Here's the forces!

Tau Ethereal Honor Guard (493pts)
- Ethereal (89pts) - Recon Armor, Honor Blade, 2x Drone
- FW Strike Team (169pts) - Markerlight Sgt, Pulse Rifles, EMP Grenades, Missile Pod Support Turret, 2x Drone
- Crisis Team w/3x Suits (235pts) - Crisis Sgt w/Repulsor Field, 3x Missile Pod, 3x Fusion Blaster, 1x Vector, 1x Drone Control, 4x Drone

Necron Retribution Phalanx (515pts)
- Overlord (200pts) - Veil of Darkness, Warscthye, Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Res Orb
- 10x Warriors (130pts)
- 3x Cantopek Scarabs (60pts)
- Triarch Stalker (125pts) - Heat Ray

Primary: No advantage (+6 each)
Secondary: No advantage (+6 each)
Tertiary: Warlord nil, First Blood to Tau (+2), Linebreaker to both (+2)

Final Score: Tau 16, Necrons 14

Projected Tau Victory -- Tau advances to Round #2!!

I'm surprised. But I'm actually giving this one to the Tau. Their formation bonus is much, much more useful than I expected. Being able to essentially teleport across their deployment zone? Win. Crisis Suits are incredibly customizable, and that makes a huge difference in a tailored match where having very little ability to customize a unit hurts the Necrons. Despite that, it's certainly no blowout -- a single Scarab base would tilt the outcome dramatically. Too bad there's only three in the box!

So, who's next?

Lets find another close matchup!

Or we do AM vs Scions

Perhaps daemons vs daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or dark eldar vs eldar?

Can't do the daemon ones with the 'Formation Only' rules, they only have a 'Formation' (not sure what the equivalent is called) for AoS not 40k.

One more reason why formation only is iffy.

Also, suit gear is suboptimal. Forget HnR and the lousy repulser field, pack FnP instead and profit increased durability.

Well, boomwolf, you are free to make one yourself, it would be cool to see your scenario too!

I like this thread.

I like this thread too but I gotta say I'd rather not use the formation for the tau. If it's box set against box set then use the whole set.

I don't know if Tau have any answer against DS without the Formation. If Necrons can DS within 12", they will remove 5-6 models and there's no way Tau can burst down that entire unit in one turn against a Res Orb.

That's without taking the Scarabs and the Stalker into account. You might actually need 2x Target Locks on the Crisis Suits as insurance to support the FW team. If the FW lose a 4-5 models to DS, there's a good chance that full-strength Scarabs can lock them and prevent redeployment. That's definitely a fatal scenario.

How do you see the game would go if not using the formation on tau?

Deployment, priorities etc..

X3 single suits with fusion/missiles/stims dancing around, or DSing depending in terrain, first priority to eliminate stalker and if he's own start gunning for the overlord.
FW team 1 with 5 members, ui upgrade with marker upgrade, missile turret and two marker drones stand WAY back with the ethereal. Emp for fun.
FW team 2 same just without drones/turret take a midfield position to bubble team 1.
6 gun drone team create further bubble and harras.


Tau claim primary by raw unmatched unit count, no clear advantage either way otherwise.

Ok cool!

Who would table who if it came to that?

Neither, probably. Necrons can kill anything they catch but they're too slow to eliminate the entire Tau force.

Scarabs can kill a FNP suit in 4-5 rounds of combat, but if they lose a base in Overwatch (42% chance) they'll be stuck for 3 game turns and probably lose combat. It's very unlikely they'll kill 2 in one game.

Warriors within 12" will kill about 4-5 models, add the Overlord's Flamer to make it an even 6. But Tau are going to decimate them after Deep Strike, so they'll probably only fire once at full strength. With a Res Orb they'll lose something like 5x models.

The Overlord can probably kill about 5x models every time he fires his Flamer and charges, so he's got the backfield covered. He's too slow to catch the Crisis Suits. Except with a Tachyon Arrow I guess. The Stalker can really hurt the Tau backfield, but with a 6" move it might not be able to get LOS on Crisis Suits.

The Overlord will probably be hiding in combat from turn 3-5, and once the main Tau army is gone the Crisis Suits probably can't kill him. Without Markerlight support, three suits with missiles and fusion only manage about 1.25W on the Overlord due to his 4++, and he's going to regenerate wounds with IWND.

So, I don't think either player can be tabled unless they suffer some bad dice or a tactical mistake. So as long as both have 3 units by the end, it's going to come down to First Blood.

Allright then.
Good analysation.

With the two different scenarios covered, we need a winner.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And of course, is someone else want to make a duel between previously covered armies, feel free.

So far, it's CSM and Tau going into Round 2. I've added BA to the competition, we'll add DA if they also get a release.

R1 Match #3: Space Wolves vs. Khorne Daemons
R1 Match #4: Imperial Guard vs. Eldar
R1 Match #5: Blood Angels vs. Dark Eldar
R1 Match #6: Scions vs. Nurgle Daemons
R1 Match #7: Skitarii vs. Orks
Tyranids -- 1st round bye

Next matchup: Space Wolves vs. Khorne Daemons (KDK Codex)
===========
Scenario #2 (No Quarter)

Deployment - Hammer and Anvil
Primary - Objective Control (12pts)
Secondary - Units 100% destroyed (12pts)
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Sparse LOS Screening, 6x Objectives
Modifiers: Formation special rules are mandatory if available, use the Draft FAQs.
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades, Forgeworld benefits not be used.

Unfortunately, the Khorne kit cannot generate a legal 40k army as it has no formation and only one troop, the round us forfeit.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Unfortunately, the Khorne kit cannot generate a legal 40k army as it has no formation and only one troop, the round us forfeit.

Unbound is a thing so how is it not a legal army?