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Most people do not consider unbound to be a thing. myself included.
However if you wish to use unbound, the wolves would crush the khorne boys.
The run+shoot formation ability will mean that the bloodletters are unlikely to ever pull off a charge on them, while the blood crushers will be crushed by TH/SS thunderwolves. the blood throne will likely challenge them, but I doubt it could defeat them without some serious luck. and the formation even assure the thunderwolves will be the ones making the charge, not the khorne boys.
Also, if you make the wolf lord's armor "runic", the KDK have no AP2 available to punch it out even if they can reach CC.
the khorne box has nice $ value, but its rather weak on the field. even with every possible upgrade it only hits 530 points, and that's with the fact crushers are heavily overpriced to begin with.
If you split the throne to a herald and a cannon you hit 580 points with overstacked upgrades. not sure it even helps though.
The cannon can be used to force the wolves to enter your defensive zone, at least bolter range to thin out the letters before sending the riders, but then what?
And while the cannon can do some damage-you still don't have an answer to runic armor other than pile on attacks (that you can't, as the letters won't reach the hunters due to formation), and the crushers can't beat the thunderwolves, the cannon can't ID them and the letters cant reach them unless they already charged someone nearby.
Wolves win, no doubt. the khorne kit is just not up to par. and given that wolves have no tanks, that was one of their BETTER match ups.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Space Wolves do have a few weaknesses the Khorne Daemons can exploit.
1) The Wolf Lord lacks mobility and Eternal Warrior. There's a 17% chance to fail a 2+ save, at which point the Skull Cannon will cause Instant Death.
2) Grey Hunters have no weapons that can counter the Skull Cannon from outside 12", other than 24" Plasma. They're also going to take heavy casualties in CC against army-wide AP3 melee.
3) Each TWC model can equip a Storm Shield, but they're vulnerable to wound spam and can't challenge out characters. Countercharging can be effective for Daemons. The Herald w/Familiar and 10x Bloodletters will deal 5.98 unsaved wounds to the TWC, if stacking both Rage and Hatred.
4) Daemons can possess a numerical unit advantage and the ability to summon through Blood Tithe, which plays well to objective control.
5) Charge distances are greater, but also less predictable for SW (run move + 2D6, versus 6"+D6 for Banner of Blood).
The best way for Daemons to approach this matchup would be: soften up the TWC with the Skull Cannon, catch the TWC charge with the Bloodcrushers, countercharge with the Herald and Bloodletters. If they can remove the TWC without spending Blood Tithe, it's possible they'll be up to as many as 6pts at this time (+3 from characters/challenges, +2 from dead units, +1 from Herald's weapon). From there, the outlook for Daemons improves. Too bad they can't summon a Bloodthirster without a non-Daemon character!
The point is, Space Wolves can't simply push TWC directly into the Bloodcrushers and ensure a win. In the best case scenario, Khorne trades everything to leave only the Wolf Lord and 2x Skull Cannons on the board, which then attempt to slip past the 2+ save. Space Wolves can alternatively make a slower and more cohesive push, in order to try and bring their ranged firepower into play with their Grey Hunters. This is probably the better plan as it helps run out the clock. It would usually take about 4-5x Skull Cannon hits, or a full-strength Bloodletter/Herald squad pulling off a successful charge to kill the Wolf Lord. A less aggressive game will make generating enough Blood Tithe in time difficult.
Space Wolves Death Pack - 680pts - Wolf Lord (185pts) Runic Armor, LC/PF, Helm of Durfast, MB, Digital Weapons
- 10x Grey Hunters (240pts) - Pack Leader, Wolf Claw, Combi-Plasma, MB, 2x Plasma, Wolf Standard
- 3x TWC (255pts) - 2x SS/TH, 1x SS/PF, MB
Primary: Advantage to Khorne Daemons (12pts)
Secondary: Advantage to Space Wolves (12pts)
Tertiary: First Blood to Space Wolves (+2pts), Warlord to Space Wolves (+2pts), Linebreaker to Space Wolves (+2pts)
Final Score - Space Wolves 18, Khorne Daemons 12
Projected Space Wolves victory -- Space Wolves advance to round 2!!
Summary: It's not an unwinnable match for Khorne Daemons. Summoned units can potentially turn the game upside down. But they're at a disadvantage in a tiebreaker due to their relatively fragile units and inability to score First Blood. Space Wolves simply have to manage the game's pacing in order to reduce the accumulation of Blood Tithe, and they'll most likely walk off with a victory,
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/21 00:56:47
Can't be built as an executioner, punisher or demolisher, due to it being the wrong kit (battle tank, not siege tank / demolisher kit)
so no gets hots on the main gun
the guardsmen either take a heavy weapon, and risk losing 1/5 of a squad to a single Scatterlaser shot shot, or don't and lose their firepower
the commissar takes a camo-cloak, sits near the LR for a boosted cover save (preferably a stock BT with LC for the AP3 for forcing jetbike jinks, or the shot at the prism with both guns
sponsons would seem to be wasted in this match-up with that loadout, except maybe HBs for additional S5 shots at bikes
Guard are severely lacking in mobility in this pairing, so they'd be forced to go for the table.
though that's just, like, my opinion, man
We don't know the eldar formation yet, but without it the guard has the edge here. LRBT is not easy prey, and dominated the field with the battle cannon, forcing the eldar into hiding and jinking.
Might as well pack sponsons, not like we are counting points. A good roll may drop an extra windrider early, giving the tank free time to bombard the prisem.
Overall, very poor match for eldar. They would probably wipe marine sets, but they lack the tools to deal with heavy tanks, and the prisem don't have his desired target. He excels at anti meq, but the IG has cover saves, not armor.
Eldar only wins with some lucky psyker powers.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
I would give it to the IG after a long fight. The Eldar don't have a way to deal with the Russ effectively, while a battlecannon will mess up everything they have
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: I would give it to the IG after a long fight. The Eldar don't have a way to deal with the Russ effectively, while a battlecannon will mess up everything they have
I don't get this. How can the Battle Cannon fire snap-shots? Isn't it a blast? My point, of course being that the Prism Cannon has str9 lance AP1, so the Russ will probably be shaken or stunned, if not outright blown up. The Farseer can also have a str9 Spear and can easily get into side or rear armour, although this depend entirely on LoS blocking terrain.
In the end it really depends on who goes first. The Eldar have the movement to hide turn 1 and still be able to pop the Russ.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/22 18:33:33
The Russ that comes in the set can still make 4 variants. It can make the normal battle cannon, the armourbane cannon, the twin linked autocannon, and the nova cannon versions. Two of those four have a blast weapon for the main turret. The other two do not. Fire Prism's highest AV is 12. Virtually any of the four has a chance at at least glancing. Personally, I would probably equip the autocannon or the armourbane versions. Either one can deal with the bikes and still fire snapshots should the need arise.
It comes down to whether it's objectives or kill points
Objectives, the eldar would probably win due to manoeuvrability, but kill points / outright tabling would go to the guard, not allowing for psychic powers.
scat bikes do have the potential (certainty?) to remove the russ though, if the guard player is careless with their gaming and concentrates on the prism, as it's S6 Vs. AV10, which would collapse under weight of firepower and near-neuter the guard
Here's the mission details, thanks to everyone for all your opinions and feedback.
R1 Matchup #4: Imperial Guard (AM) versus Eldar
AM units: As per Armored Shield formation
Eldar units: As per Eldar Runeweaver formation
Scenario #1 (Harvest of War)
Deployment - Dawn of War
Primary - Relic (12pts)
Secondary - Objective Control (12pts)
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Moderate LOS Screening, 2x Objectives
Modifiers: Formation special rules are mandatory if available, use the Draft FAQs.
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades (ie. 3x max on vehicles), Forgeworld benefits not be used.
I think the LR Exterminator is the best variant to field here for AM. Given a 4+ cover save with Camo it doesn't need much support, and as its main gun is twin-linked it won't suffer as badly in the event of a pen hit.
Given that the board is 4' X 4', that both forces are relatively fragile with considerable firepower, tabling is a very real possibility. The initial tank engagement is going to shape the outcome. With twinlinking, Doom, and full BS, the Prism has a 33% chance of scoring a pen hit through a 4+ cover save. With 2x Multimeltas, an Exterminator Autocannon and a Lascannon, the LR has a 72% chance to pen AV12 with a 5++, dropping to about 50% against Jink or a 5++ with Fortune. It will also scrub off HP faster. Keep in mind the Fire Prism is almost 12" long, it's a big unit to hide. I think Guard has the overall advantage in the tank battle, even with psychic support. Eldritch Storm might peel off a HP with Haywire but it's unlikely to Pen, doesn't Ignore Cover and eats a lot of WC. The Farseer can reduce cost with Spirit Stones but there's still only so many WC dice to go around, and as always, Psychic Powers are random.
The Jetbike pack is swimming in ways to remove the AM Infantry Squad, but they can't afford to lose models. Eldar simply doesn't have enough depth throughout their army. As soon as they're targeted by the LR, Scatterbike damage will drop precipitously and AM can push the infantry squad into contact. I don't think a Farseer and 3x Bikes (soon to be less) can handle the combined firepower of the entire AM force -- within 24" they'll start to risk losing models to Lasguns, and they can't stay on the Relic if they're outgunned. Guard simply has to preserve their infantry as best possible, remove the Prism and they gain a decisive advantage. Eldar needs to remove the LR and mop up the remaining units, but their first step towards victory is going to be a little more difficult. Definitely not impossible.
There's a few items Eldar can use to cover off their weaknesses (Spirit Stones will preserve to Prism's shooting), but nothing that's obviously decisive. I'm not 100% sure of the AM Commissar's loadout (is it legal to upgrade to a LC?) but nonetheless I don't see it making a major difference. Force compositions:
AM (340pts) - Armored Shield Formation Commissar (55pts) - Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol
Infantry Squad (95pts) - Power Weapon, Boltgun, Lascannon, Krak Grenades
LR Exterminator (190pts) - Lascannon, 2x MM, Cam Net, Dozer Blade, Extra Armor
Primary: Advantage to AM (+12)
Secondary: No advantage (+6 each)
Tertiary: First Blood to AM (+2), Warlord to Eldar (+2), Linebreaker to both (+2)
Final Score - AM 16, Eldar 10
Projected Imperial Guard victory -- AM advances to round 2!!
AV14 is banned in most Combat Patrol missions for a reason, it definitely showed its value in this matchup. I think Eldar would take some of their matches, but without much AT options, the LR is difficult to overcome. Not a typical outcome in 40k -- cheers to the Guard for defying our usual expectations in this one!
Yoyoyo wrote: Here's the mission details, thanks to everyone for all your opinions and feedback.
R1 Matchup #4: Imperial Guard (AM) versus Eldar
AM units: As per Armored Shield formation
Eldar units: As per Eldar Runeweaver formation
Scenario #1 (Harvest of War)
Deployment - Dawn of War
Primary - Relic (12pts)
Secondary - Objective Control (12pts)
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Moderate LOS Screening, 2x Objectives
Modifiers: Formation special rules are mandatory if available, use the Draft FAQs.
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades (ie. 3x max on vehicles), Forgeworld benefits not be used.
I think the LR Exterminator is the best variant to field here for AM. Given a 4+ cover save with Camo it doesn't need much support, and as its main gun is twin-linked it won't suffer as badly in the event of a pen hit.
Given that the board is 4' X 4', that both forces are relatively fragile with considerable firepower, tabling is a very real possibility. The initial tank engagement is going to shape the outcome. With twinlinking, Doom, and full BS, the Prism has a 33% chance of scoring a pen hit through a 4+ cover save. With 2x Multimeltas, an Exterminator Autocannon and a Lascannon, the LR has a 72% chance to pen AV12 with a 5++, dropping to about 50% against Jink or a 5++ with Fortune. It will also scrub off HP faster. Keep in mind the Fire Prism is almost 12" long, it's a big unit to hide. I think Guard has the overall advantage in the tank battle, even with psychic support. Eldritch Storm might peel off a HP with Haywire but it's unlikely to Pen, doesn't Ignore Cover and eats a lot of WC. The Farseer can reduce cost with Spirit Stones but there's still only so many WC dice to go around, and as always, Psychic Powers are random.
The Jetbike pack is swimming in ways to remove the AM Infantry Squad, but they can't afford to lose models. Eldar simply doesn't have enough depth throughout their army. As soon as they're targeted by the LR, Scatterbike damage will drop precipitously and AM can push the infantry squad into contact. I don't think a Farseer and 3x Bikes (soon to be less) can handle the combined firepower of the entire AM force -- within 24" they'll start to risk losing models to Lasguns, and they can't stay on the Relic if they're outgunned. Guard simply has to preserve their infantry as best possible, remove the Prism and they gain a decisive advantage. Eldar needs to remove the LR and mop up the remaining units, but their first step towards victory is going to be a little more difficult. Definitely not impossible.
There's a few items Eldar can use to cover off their weaknesses (Spirit Stones will preserve to Prism's shooting), but nothing that's obviously decisive. I'm not 100% sure of the AM Commissar's loadout (is it legal to upgrade to a LC?) but nonetheless I don't see it making a major difference. Force compositions:
AM (340pts) - Armored Shield Formation Commissar (55pts) - Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol
Infantry Squad (95pts) - Power Weapon, Boltgun, Lascannon, Krak Grenades
LR Exterminator (190pts) - Lascannon, 2x MM, Cam Net, Dozer Blade, Extra Armor
Primary: Advantage to AM (+12)
Secondary: No advantage (+6 each)
Tertiary: First Blood to AM (+2), Warlord to Eldar (+2), Linebreaker to both (+2)
Final Score - AM 16, Eldar 10
Projected Imperial Guard victory -- AM advances to round 2!!
AV14 is banned in most Combat Patrol missions for a reason, it definitely showed its value in this matchup. I think Eldar would take some of their matches, but without much AT options, the LR is difficult to overcome. Not a typical outcome in 40k -- cheers to the Guard for defying our usual expectations in this one!
You got it totally wrong on multiple angles, almost looks like you're being biased because you're not considering what an eldar general would do in this scenario:
1) Runes of fate are sub-par in this scenario. The enemy has guaranteed cover and high AV but has a severe lack of mobility. This makes it clear that you must take another discipline. IMO telepathy is the best opinion (Shriek ignores both armor and cover and on everage of 11/12 you cause 2-3 wounds) but Divination could potentially wreck the AM. Should you get the "optimal" combo (shrouding and invisibility or perfect timing and misfortune) then the AM is done for. I'm going to assume that, right after pooling three shots, though, we only got one of the two good powers in both disciplines.
2) You've not exactly considered the damage taken by AM in turn 1 should eldar get the first turn. e. A full squad of the bikes, without any bonuses, could easily cause almost 7 wounds and kill 3 guardsman (regardless of number of wounds. 3 rounds of fire is more than sufficient to kill them all, they won't get the relic. And that's when not taking into account ANY modifiers
3) You underestimated eldar mobility and the oportunities it can give
4) You got the concept of the AM squad wrong: they simply cannot get to the relic. Doing so simply will make the LC snap-fire and thus be almost useless. This forces them to either be stationary or have neglegible firing power.
5) the fire prism can be easily hidden, you just need the corner of a building or use a GW one (administratum basilica, aquila's temple, sanctum imperialis do the job perfectly, I know it from experience)
Now, let's go case by case. This scenarios are assuming the eldar player get 1st turn (which can happen, it also cannot happen but I don't want to cover those scenarios)
Case A (got perfect timing)
The eldar player deployed his forces so as to everyone would get LoS with the squad. Also the squad is within 4-6'' of the front armor and is deployed in a double 5-man long line so as to try and maximize covering, but not lose it should the enemy start firing and whitling them.
Turn 1
In this scenario the guard squad is shanked. With at least 4 WCs (average 6) and only having to use two WC 1 (stones of Anathlan down cost to 1) the farseer easily gets the power. Note that the re-roll, if need be, should go to perfect timing, since it provides the biggest increase in damage. Averageing 10.7 hits (let's say 10) we will get 8.33 wounds (9.16 if we wanted to say we got 11 hits) which are translated into roughly 6 dead guardsmen. Blessed be flakk!
Now, here is at this point that the eldar would have score first blood. Should the prism ignore the russ and fire first into the squad (and assuming we get 7 hits with the big pieplate) we can get 3 kills with the cannon and maybe 1 with the shuriken cannon (2.7 hits, 2.24 wounds). The prism must fire first so as to reduce the model count to 6 because the bikes will cause ID regardless of number of wounds.
First blood and slay the warlord go to eldar.
Eldar make an assault move (6'' this time) and hide behind LoS. The leman russ has only one target. One MM fails, so does an AC shot (if I don't say it wrong it's TL but 1.5 stays even between 1 and 2 so will go for this once) and the LC hits. Obviously the prism will jink. We get 0.5 glances/from the MM, 0.33 from the AC and 0.6667 from the LC. That is 0.33 pens, 0.16667 pens and 0.5 pens. That is that we statitically can get a pen. We assume a pen (shaken) that we don't manage to ignore with the stones. Yes, the LR has great weapons but half of the time the important ones will miss. this is huge for the eldar.
Turn 2.
The prism moves to get the side arc and shoots, failing miserably.
The jetbikes forgo their shooting attack and decide to turbo boost... right behind the russ. Now the guard player has the noose set to strangle him. If he doesn't turn back, he will suffer 5.5 damage with ignore's cover. If he does, he will, with a certainity suffer a HP or two loss. It's impossible for him to wipe out the enemy unit: 5 shots means 2.5 hits (let's say the AC hits twice and the LC fails) The bikes are jinking (which diminishes their output but it doesn't fully nulify it with the seer's powers. The guard commander is forced to turn back and force them two jink. All his weapons manage to score wounds but they only suffer one casualty from the melta (0.666 from AC and 0.5 from melta). If we did get foreboding then our firepower remains unchanged because we will have been taking invulnerable saves
Turn 3. The jetbikes, thanks to the seer's ld10, don't run away, and the boss decides to detach himself from the unit so as to grant TL to the prism, whom has positionated himself at cruising speed at gotten to the rear arc, the bikes do so too. We get both powers (either perfect timing+prescience or just prescience if we roled for foreboding). Worst case scenario we get 2.4 hits which strip off a HP whereas the prism gets a hit on the cannon (over 90% hit chance) and strips off a HP while its shuriken cannon finishes the tank.. or we just charge with the farseer and hope his 3 attacks (1 base, 2xCCWs and charge) with a 90% hit chance net us a 7 or more on its 2d6 pen roll. That would require being a bit unlucky If we got foreboding the bikes do the job quickly.
Guard is wiped out, victory goes for eldar and their superior mobility.
Now, the guard could have chosen to deploy in a congaline but that could have been used in the eldar favor: just get the bikes and prism to the side, kill a couple models with the bikes and shot the russ. A 50% chance to pen means it's highly likely to be not usable for a turn, thus further benefiting the eldar. That or that the guard player was slightly (like 1 or 2 failed saves above average).
Case B (got misfortune)
Here's a bit trickier and long winded but relies a lot less in who got 1st turn. Basically we ought to pound first the guard squads (averaging 4 dead per turn from the jetbikes and maybe a few more with the prism cannon all while keeping away from the MMs). The prism is totally prescindible but will be useful to deflect fire and chip off wounds.
By turn 3 we ought to have slaughtered the guardsmen and lost the prism (whom fired once at the guardsmen and the second on the russ, resulting in a glance or failure). We just need the windriders to get to the side and relatively close to LoS blocking terrain. On average it will result in almost two HPs and the death of the russ in 2 turns, whom will not be able to shoot the hidden models. if you feel ballsy/ suicidal you can charge too and with the 3 farseer attacks hitting getting a glance and at least one of the 6 windriders attacks resulting in a glance (thanks to misfortune and prescience)
Victory goes to eldar. Guard wiped out.
Case C (both misfortune and perfect timing)
A mixture of the two cases above and is the safest of the three, since it allows your bikes to get out of MM range and thus reduce the enemy firepower on them by a 40% (and thus remove the need to jink). It's death by a thousand cuts at its finest.
Eldar wins.
Case D (got shrouding)
The gist here is to do about the same as we'd do in case A but with a few modifications: first we get into an 18'' range of the squad. Then we cast shrouding to ensure we get it and we cast shriek on the squad. With a lucky roll (let's say, 13) we can kill 4 guardsmen and in the very best case scenario we could virtually wipe out everyone (everyone barring the commissar and maybe the lucky HWT but the latter would have a wound). We get 3 guardsmen in one volley of psichic might. Pop up the shooting phase and the prism fires into the guardsmen as does everyone else. At an average of 3 dead from the prism (4 wounds from cannon and 2 from shuriken) we can ALMOST wipe out the enemy in a single turn.
Our bikes jink and get a beefy 2+ cover save from the russ whom cannot allow them to get to its back since they closed greatly the distance with their assault moves.
Turn 2 finish the guard squad with shriek or the prism guns if need be.
Case E (got invisilibty)
On turn 1 repeat case D but with a variation out of 2: charge the bikes (you'll only be hit on 6s and then be wounded on 5s while you're attacking first) to ensure the extermination of the guardsmen (you'll get roughly two wounds from the guardsmen so it should be enough or at least get them tied with you for a round and avoid the enemy shooting) or place them behind the russ to force it into an uncomfortable angle between you and the prism's nasty cannon.
Case F (got shrouding and invisibiity)
This is the case of: feth this gak, I'm out of here. Forget about damaging your oponents and go for the relic. Cast both invisibility and shrouding on the bikes and then run like hell. If you get 1st turn then go nuts and use the prism to tank shock and disrupt the enemy line: crusing speed and flat-out so as to either block line of sight or tank shock the guard (if you, like a few LGS do, allow tank shocking with flat-out) which you MUST do starting on turn 2. The guard player will try in vain to kill your units whom ought to be safe starting from turn 3 and be able to shoot regularly (I'm assuming there's ruins within 12'') as they have no way to kill your models since they hit on 6s and can only kill on 1s to save. If your warlord got the trait that allows re-rolls of 1 when saving then say good bye to victory.
While they may get line breaker and first blood we are assured to win or force a tie if we go this route.
We could, of course, give those bonuses to the prism (though he'd only get a 3+ cover save-5++ from hiding behind terrain plus 2 from shrouding) thus ensuring the enemy cannot do crap to it while we pound the everliving gak of the squad via the old jump shoot jump manneuver. Turn 3: get the bikes behind and give them those bonuses to them. Enjoy the enemy's desperation as he cannot kill things fast enough as to avoid getting blown to kingdom come. Either by shooting or even assault with the spear as a last ditch effort.
Either way, eldar are most likely to win in the first variation and almost assured to win in the second (again via being wiped out).
In most cases the guard lose because the eldar can kill their guys extremely fast. and get to their weak point wihout massive issues). Guard NEEDS getting the initiative if they want to have hopes of victory (in which case they DO have a chance... if the enemy cannot hide all the models for turn 1). And hidding the models doesn't work for guard since eldar just can play that game: run the bikes into the relic, grab it, and then turbo-boosting to get the objective. That tactic is specially viable with the shrouding and invisibility combo. And worst thing is that the eldar don't have a hard time getting their powers. The stones and the runes reduce a lot the charges needed by the farseer, whom provides more often than not the needed amount of them by his mere presence. We will always have more WCs than those needed with the D6.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/06/25 16:42:54
Deployment: Dawn of War, 4'x4'
Primary Mission: The Relic (Win - 12pts, Draw - 6pts, Loss - 0pts)
Secondary Mission: 2x Objectives (Win - 12pts, Draw - 6pts, Loss - 0pts)
Tertiary Mission: Warlord, 1st Blood, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Relic is centralized in a 12" courtyard surrounded by Ruins. 2x Objectives are in opposing deployment zones. Moderate LOS screening
Modifiers: Helbrute has 4A (as per "Roused to War" FAQ), all Formation Special rules are in use. Use the Draft FAQs!
Constraints: Box contents only (so no Grav Cannon), only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades, Forgeworld may not be used
The SM Tactical Squad has the unique ability to Combat Squad. Half their team can control their backfield and plink away with their Missile Launcher, which is incidentally their only box option. The other half of the squad can advance on foot with a Special Weapon. Splitting the squad essentially guarantees winning the secondary mission (Objectives).
The CSM Squad cannot split up, and they can't win a long-range firefight, so they need to concentrate on the Relic primary and hope to draw the divided Tactical Marines into CC. They do get 2x Specials which is a little more appropriate for footslogging across the board (but only one of each kind). By far their best advantage is T5 through Mark of Nurgle, which will make anything under S7 much less effective.
The Chaos Lord can take Mark of Nurgle alongside his squad, which means he can't be doubled out by any weapon except the Dread PF. That's decisive because now he can take an offensive relic. Eye of Night = D3 Ignore Cover Pen hits on the Dread. Since it doesn't replace a weapon, the Lord can combine a LC and Chainfist for an extra attack.
The SM Captain risks getting doubled out at T4 by the CSM Lord. Without a Storm Shield to model Shield Eternal, the best Relic to counter this is Gorgon's Chain. Incidentally that determines Chapter Tactics for the SM force. The SM Captain recieves significantly better defense than the CSM Lord, but being limited by the starter set's offensive options, he can't pick up a LC to pair with his PF (stolen from the Tac Marine Sgt).
The SM force can leverage their Formation bonus against the Helbrute, which stands a very unlikely chance of surviving. However, the Ven Dread is completely outclassed by Eye of Night. Both vehicles are priority targets unlikely to last the game, but Eye of Night probably has the advantage in terms of Alpha Striking and First Blood.
CSM already recieve Hatred through VotLW, meaning their Formation bonus is most likely, completely redundant. But if CSM scores First Blood, SM will have to contest the Relic, and it's very likely this game will be decided by CC.
CSM (Black Legion) - 637pts
Terminator Lord (262pts) : Eye of Night, Mark of Nurgle, Chainfist/LC, Sigil, VotLW CSM Squad (240pts) : Mark of Nurgle, Meltagun/Plasmagun, Combi-Weapon, Power Fist, VotLW Helbrute (135pts) : TL-Lascannon, Power Scourge
- Primary : Advantage to CSM (+12)
- Secondary : Advantage to SM (+12)
- Tertiary : Warlord to both (+2 each), First Blood to CSM (+2) Linebreaker to CSM (+2)
Final score: 18 to CSM, 14 to SM.
Projected CSM victory -- CSM advances to Round #2!!
Sum up: It's the Eye of Night and Mark of Nurgle which tip this towards CSM. Without Eye of Night, it would be almost impossible for CSM to disable the Venerable Dread, which would neutralize their CC advantage completely. Luckily, Black Legion has the perfect counter and we aren't balancing with points.
Begin stating your reasons to appeal the decision now!
I'm sorry, but this so hideously "fixed" it isn't even funny...
First off, since we're allowing the CSM's to list tailor by taking the Eye of Night, then the Marines would almost certainly run either White Scars (for Hit-and-Run shenanigans) or Imp Fists (for better shooting through their formation bonus) tactics.
And let's be honest, those Marines are going for Grav + Combi-Grav.
You purposely gave the Dreadnought the absolute worst possible loadout, likely because we obviously want to ensure that CSM's win so that we can "prove" that they're not the worst box...
More than likely, that Dread is going for the Assault cannon (seriously, what part of 8/S6, Rending shots doesn't make sense here?!) and then trading up it's ccw for a Missile launcher. (Marines want to out-shoot the CSM side)
So really, if *I* was running the SM box, knowing full well it's going up against the Chaos box, then I'm running;
- Termie Captain w/The Primarch's Wrath, Relic Blade, Digi weapons, Melta bombs
- 10x Tacticals w/Missile launcher, Grav gun, Combi-Grav, Power sword, Melta bombs
- Ven Dread w/Ass-can, Missile launcher
Chaos meanwhile, at the absolute "best" can get;
- Lord w/MoN, Lightning claw + Power fist, Sigil, Eye of Night
- 10x Chaos Marines w/Plasma + Meltagun, Power fist + Plasma pistol champ. (note: there is no combi-weapon option for the Aspiring Champion, so giving him one breaks your own rules! )
- Hellbrute w/Reaper Autocannon, Missile launcher.
If the Marine player is smart, they sit back and realise that the *only* way for the Chaos side to even remotely stand a chance is to somehow get into close combat... (hence why White Scars tactics would be cruel to use against the Chaos side!)
Lucky for them, their formation bonus lets them excel at just that!
Everything unloads into the squad itself; 8x S6/Rending shots+2x S8/ap3, Grav, and finally 5x S4/Shred shots from the Captain's relic bolter. (which, since it's a bolter, could benefit from Imp Fists tactics!)
Unless they hide in cover all game, there's just no way the Chaos side can weather the Marine's far superior shooting.
The Eye of Night is also nothing more than a one-shot fail-marry to boot... Sure it's range is unlimited, but it's still a 'Blast' type weapon, meaning that it has pretty solid odds of actually entirely missing the Dread instead of hitting it!
And if it does hit, you only have a 33% shot at outright killing the Ven Dread. 1 or 2 pens and it's re-roll ability comes into play, so you'll be forced to re-roll any unfavourable result.
Besides, even if the Chaos gets lucky and murders the Ven Dread 1st turn, before it can even get a single shot off, what then? Marines still have range, and Grav... The Tac squad can have the Captain tank the few ap2 shots that the Chaos side gets, essentially sacrificing himself long enough for the Grav gun to take out pretty much the entire Chaos side, minus the Hellbrute. (which itself, is literally forced to go pure shooty to try and HP out the Ven Dread within a couple turns.)
Sorry, but Imperium wins this one every time, outside extremely biased diced favouring the Chaos player.
Good points y'all! Remember, we can always reverse the results if it makes sense to. Let's dig into it a bit more.
@ Lord Kragan: What happens if Eldar fail to generate their desired powers? Both Telepathy and Divination are maybe stronger choices, but 2/3rds of the powers are marginal. There's at least a 30% chance of being stuck with the chaff. There's also a chance of powers failing -- casting a WC1 power on three dice will produce a 33% chance to fail, if it's done 3 times. So in at least 53% of matches, you're looking at a scenario where the psychic phase won't go quite as planned during the first three turns (and realistically, DtW increases that %). How does Eldar play around their suboptimal scenarios?
Guard will also attempt to protect their units, such as screening infantry behind both the LR hull + BLOS terrain to the flank. Or even reserving, though that would cause its own issues. They'll have T1 in 50% of matches, and if Guard can effectively target something at the top of T1, it may alter the outcome. If Eldar lack key powers in 30% of matchups, go first in 35% of matchups, and go second in 35%, how do things play out? It's a 4' X 4' board, remember, so there's less space and less terrain to place which can completely hide Grav Tanks.
@ 626: Good point about the Combi-Weapon If SM sits back to maximize their shooting advantage, they don't get a movement phase. If that's the case, why can't CSM simply steal the Relic, then return to their DZ to chill out behind LOS near their objective? They don't need to table SM to win, only to win the Primary and tie Secondary. SM can't use their formation bonus if they're forced to move, so putting CSM out of LOS or forcing them to contest the Relic halves their firepower.
But aside from all that, Eye of Night is a 5" blast on a BS5 character, targeting a 60mm base. I don't think you're judging it correctly. What are the odds of it missing entirely, 11% or something? 2x pens on average are great, but instant killing the Dread entirely in almost a third of your matchups is amazing! If CSM takes 1st blood in most matchups (remember, the Helbrute can help to finish the Dread from outside the 24" range of the Assault Cannon), SM is then stuck with a single Tac Squad, two CSM targets that can menace it in CC, and a Relic mission they can't ignore. So that really changes the calculus of the matchup -- once the Ven Dread is removed, it's easy enough to push the Helbrute at the SM squad, while the CSM makes off with the Relic.
@ Kragan:,You're going to end up a very frustrated man if you're undone by incorrect math on dakka. Try and relax a little, it's good for discussion and it's good for the soul. It's also a people skill
1) 8" scatter, minus 5" for the BS5 of the Lord, minus the 2.5" radius of the blast marker = 0.5" which is the displacement of the nearest edge of the blast template to the target. This would hit the Dreadnought base, which has a radius of >1". Is that correct? If so, 8's and all lesser scatter will connect, besides the base chance of simply rolling a direct hit on the scatter die. I guess the odds of the Eye of Night hitting are something more like 82%?
2) Assault Cannons are 24". It's Autocannons that are 48". The Dread cannot target the Helbrute across deployment zones.
3) Guard and CSM shouldn't play on planet bowling ball, while Eldar/SM do not. You're setting up scenarios which disadvantage these players, like priming the Helbrute to eat 4x Autocannon (and 8x illegal Assault Cannon) shots on T1. Armies with less firepower want to minimize their exposure. It makes sense for the Helbrute to deploy out of LOS (as it's certainly smaller than a Grav tank...). The CSM dismounts will want to approach the Relic using midfield cover and concealment. If SM wants to hide anything, CSM should probably run out the clock to their advantage. You can't apply perfect LOS to one faction and not the other.
4) Obliged for correcting the math on the Eldar matchup. Then it's still about 20% when they'll lack their desired powers, 40% chance to go first, 40% chance to go second. Minimal chances of the occasional casting failure due to the Farseer reroll (which I overlooked, cheers). This is a poorer outlook for Guard but the question still stands -- how do things go in the matchups where Eldar don't get their key powers, or if Guard gets 1st turn to attack the Prism? Let's say you can't bring your own terrain to the match, and the Prism can be targeted on this board. Then we can note the impact of obstructing terrain on the outcome.
5) Guard need to preserve their infantry. Full stop. They can't throw it away for a LR cover save. I think that's a fatal mistake in this matchup, because they need to create the situation where it's both LR + Infantry against Jetbikes to win. That's their win condition. Otherwise they're too easily outmanuevered (which we both agree on).
6) Other thing we didn't discuss. ITC typically houserules Invisibility. Maybe we should consider that in our games, as a commonly seen modifier in competition. Again, we can note the difference in outcomes.
Appreciate your contributions but why would CSM/Guard simply play to a losing plan? Exposing their infantry in the early game to be picked apart by a force with superior firepower ensures their loss. They need to pick off the vulnerable unit -- the Ven Dread with Eye of Night/Helbrute, the Fire Prism w/the Leman Russ) and at that point they can try and overload what's left.
The Chaos Marines will eventually have to move out into the open to grab the relic. (note: you're also giving them a scenario that heavily favours them as well!)
If the Loyalist player is even semi-intelligent, they'll simply make sure to deploy/move their units into prime shooting positions overlooking the relic marker, and then just wait out the CSM's.
So sure, maaaaybe the Chaos side gets lucky with a heavily favourable table that let's them hide everything 100% out of LoS, AND, the EoN manages to not scatter off the Ven Dread [b]and then hits that magical 33% odds at one-hit-KO'ing the Dread...
Otherwise, the game ends in a best a draw, since the Chaos side will get murdered by the Marine's 'double shooting phase' ability the second they stick their horned heads out of cover.
And this is in a scenario that entirely favours the CSM side?!
Nope, the Loyalist set is literally 100x better than anything the Chaos one can attempt.
Chaos only ever wins that match-up through sheer dumb luck!
Yoyoyo wrote: @ Kragan:,You're going to end up a very frustrated man if you're undone by incorrect math on dakka. Try and relax a little, it's good for discussion and it's good for the soul. It's also a people skill
1) 8" scatter, minus 5" for the BS5 of the Lord, minus the 2.5" radius of the blast marker = 0.5" which is the displacement of the nearest edge of the blast template to the target. This would hit the Dreadnought base, which has a radius of >1". Is that correct? If so, 8's and all lesser scatter will connect, besides the base chance of simply rolling a direct hit on the scatter die. I guess the odds of the Eye of Night hitting are something more like 82%?
2) Assault Cannons are 24". It's Autocannons that are 48". The Dread cannot target the Helbrute across deployment zones.
3) Guard and CSM shouldn't play on planet bowling ball, while Eldar/SM do not. You're setting up scenarios which disadvantage these players, like priming the Helbrute to eat 4x Autocannon (and 8x illegal Assault Cannon) shots on T1. Armies with less firepower want to minimize their exposure. It makes sense for the Helbrute to deploy out of LOS (as it's certainly smaller than a Grav tank...). The CSM dismounts will want to approach the Relic using midfield cover and concealment. If SM wants to hide anything, CSM should probably run out the clock to their advantage. You can't apply perfect LOS to one faction and not the other.
4) Obliged for correcting the math on the Eldar matchup. Then it's still about 20% when they'll lack their desired powers, 40% chance to go first, 40% chance to go second. Minimal chances of the occasional casting failure due to the Farseer reroll (which I overlooked, cheers). This is a poorer outlook for Guard but the question still stands -- how do things go in the matchups where Eldar don't get their key powers, or if Guard gets 1st turn to attack the Prism? Let's say you can't bring your own terrain to the match, and the Prism can be targeted on this board. Then we can note the impact of obstructing terrain on the outcome.
5) Guard need to preserve their infantry. Full stop. They can't throw it away for a LR cover save. I think that's a fatal mistake in this matchup, because they need to create the situation where it's both LR + Infantry against Jetbikes to win. That's their win condition. Otherwise they're too easily outmanuevered (which we both agree on).
6) Other thing we didn't discuss. ITC typically houserules Invisibility. Maybe we should consider that in our games, as a commonly seen modifier in competition. Again, we can note the difference in outcomes.
Appreciate your contributions but why would CSM/Guard simply play to a losing plan? Exposing their infantry in the early game to be picked apart by a force with superior firepower ensures their loss. They need to pick off the vulnerable unit -- the Ven Dread with Eye of Night/Helbrute, the Fire Prism w/the Leman Russ) and at that point they can try and overload what's left.
There's several glaring issues:
1) I need to update once and for all my mobile's battlescribe. It says that Assault cannon's are 48'' AND TL base. Yeah, want to know where they got it since that it says it can also take Auto cannons with Assault cannons which the codex states you cannot do.
2) Need to corroborate my calculus, I wrote down 2.75 instead of 3.75 (which is the distance needed for a 5" to utterly miss) still a rather feasible prospect as the one of not getting psychic powers.
3) regarding the psychic powers the answer varies a lot depending on what exactly we got. I'll run you three scenarios: we decided to roll ALL telepathy or ALL divination and we, after the second roll on any of the tables we decided to go a safe route and get the primaris: divination and shriek. In all three cases, though. We assume we won't attack head-on but instead we will turbo/flat-out in search for LoS-blocking terrain (which isn't hard once you consider the bikes are rather small) and that the prism is in reserve.
C) Safe route: in this case we zip out to a LoS blocking-building that gives us LoS if we move up to 12'' (like a manifactorum's lower level we can hop on next turn.) We have the prism in reserve. Guard needs to move onward to get the relic. At this point we don't care of whom begins first as long as the bikes were out of LoS (not really hard, they aren't that big).
Now in turn two, guard has moved on, still unable to target the sneaky eldar. We fail the reserve roll.
A) We will roll ALL telepathy. This one boils down into getting terrify and/or hallucination. Basically repeat C but with more (possibly) powerful shriek or more potential for damage.
B) This one is more finicky and will depend on us getting either scrier's gaze and/or foreboding+precognition. In the latter case we go balls deep in a hail mary of glory since turn 2. Close range while staying out of LoS. We risk the proverbial 3 powers but first and foremost the first two. Shoot and then charge the guard. If we do get the previous two powers we are assured the squad's survival
Perhaps they have the relic now but it matter little: farseer casts shriek and causes 2 wounds and then may cast any other boon they may have gotten (for example scriers gaze or precognition). If he did get terrify then better as it will increase the number of wounds caused and may force morale checks for sweet BLAMS!. He zips out in a turbo, getting to safety.
Turn 3, guard must choose to give chase or go back to objective camping. Let's assume they give chase with the whole group but are getting the guard behind the russ. It matters little for the eldar vehicles climb on top of buildings and thus get LoS. Rinse and repeat the procedure of the last time. IF the guard suffered 5-6 dead from shriek they can attempt prescience and thus get 10.7 hits which translate into 9 (8.9) wounds which will be transleted into 3-4 dead guardsmen (read: the whole squad). By dancing with death we ensure first blood. If the prism came from reserves we can ensure it by firing the big pieplat at them. It will cause 1-2 dead guardsmen. The russ fires EVERYTHING at the guardians whom may or may not have a 4++ or may have jinked. averaging 2.5 hits and 2.08 wounds (3 hits but 2 wounds) the guardians lose a member.
And we are back at the finale of scenario A from my previous explanation. Maybe we don't pull it straight out but by turn 5-6 (depending on whom goes first, AND if the game doesn't end before, in which case we get victory for eldar for first blood and slay the warlord) there will be a hail of scatter lasers fired on the russ ass coupled (maybe) with a singing spear and a possible charge.
4) Regarding marines: if their player has half a brain there's no doubt they'll be positioned in a way they can target the relic without the need to move. The moment they grab the relic they ought to be ready to fire. And remember: they have line of sight since they got to kill the dreadnought.
4.1) during the movement phase: 3 grav-shots, 8 bolt-shots and 1 missile and then 5 primarch's wrath shots. Let's make it 2 grav-hits and 6 bolt hits and 4 PW hits. 1.332 wounds from grav (1 unsaved wound) and 4 bolter based (bolt+PW) wounds) which translate in a second dead marine. Now comes the shooting phase and we pop the tactical doctrine and use the combi-grav: we end up with 5.3 grav hits (let's make it 5) and 5 PW hits plus 6 bolter hits and a missile hit. Missile wounds and so do 3 grav shots, resulting in 3 dead CSM due to cover saves allowing 1 to survive. We wind up with 4-5 bolter wounds which translates into the seventh CSM death. In just a single turn. You just need one more in a 5 turn long game and the hellbrute still won't be able to charge you the following turn.
Experiment 626 wrote: So sure, maaaaybe the Chaos side gets lucky with a heavily favourable table that let's them hide everything 100% out of LoS, AND, the EoN manages to not scatter off the Ven Dread [b]and then hits that magical 33% odds at one-hit-KO'ing the Dread...!
That's the general idea, yes. I'd strongly encourage you not to just obligingly line up your army to be shot off the board!
============
@ Kragan -- seems to me the only way for Guard to pull off a victory if the Prism is reserved and the bikes aren't in LOS, is to deploy their infantry far enough back that they're not visible after a 12" Jetbike move. At this point there's a defensive stalemate, where every unit except the LR is too fragile to risk moving. Even then there's not a lot of opportunity for Guard to press an advantage, because the Prism will arrive shortly and the bikes are too fast to pin down.
Guard may be able to claim 1st Blood when the Prism comes out of Reserve, and still manage to protect enough Infantry to contest the Relic at the endgame. That's against Shriek and Prescience. If we're charitable and give Guard 100% of victories when Eldar don't generate Shrouding or Invis, and give Guard victories in 50% of games where they go 1st (imagine the Russ can fire effectively on the Jetbikes on T1, causing 2x casualties), Eldar still win the series about 60-40.
I guess we have our first projected result overturned!! Anybody have other observations? Or should we call this one and advance to the next match?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/27 23:11:54
Nevertheless. Let's go on to make the chaos in-fighting. That is: daemons of khorne versus daemons of nurgle!
Deployment - Dawn of War
Primary - Relic (12pts)
Secondary - Objective Control (12pts)
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Moderate LOS Screening, 2x Objectives
Modifiers: Formation special rules are mandatory if available, use the Draft FAQs.
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades (ie. 3x max on vehicles), Forgeworld benefits not be used.
This armies lack formations as their start collecting! is geared for Age of Skubmar but nevertheless let's give them a nice rundown:
The daemons of khorne could be used either as khorne daemonkin or daemons of chaos. I will limit myself to do a KDK match because they are actually the best suited to deal with the nurgle fellows.
Now, the daemons have a bit of a peculiarity on their reward and locus system but we will go down this route:
a) the troop sarges may get ONE lesser reward.
b) the HQs may get one to two lesser rewards or a lesser reward and a greater one (but not exalted ones).
c) Locii will be considered wargear.
So here's the lists I thought up for the KDK and the chaos daemons of nurgle:
Khorne DaemonKin army: 510pts
HQ: Bloodthrone: herald has the brazen rune and a collar of khorne and the exalted locus of wrath: it will boost the damage output of bloodcrushers and the bloodletters.
Elite: 3 blood crushers, banner of blood and the bloodhunter upgrade.
Troops: 10 blood letters with bloodreaper, banner of blood and instrument of chaos.
Daemons of Nurgle: 561pts
Herald of Nurgle with ML2 and grotty the nurgling. Lesser and greater reward. Has icon of fertilence.
Troops:
3x nurgling bases and 10x plaguebearers with icon of plague, plaguereaper with lesser reward and instrument of chaos.
FA: 3x plague drones with the death's head upgrade and with the 3+ poison. The bossman has a lesser reward
So up ahead it seems the nurglites have a small advantage in points.
In this game both armies have 3x units. Personally the nurglings are better off being the holders of the nurglite objective, since they have a low number of bodies. Sure 4 wounds sounds quite nice and all but the T3 means those angry blood crushers will bring painful ID to you.
KDK pros and cons:
Pros:
The KDK has excellent leadership (army wide fearless) and excellent mobility: charges are assured at least 5 (difficult terrain) to 7 inches and two out of three units have a 12'' movement range and are fleet (if my chariot's rules isn't foggy, haven't played daemons in a looong time). This means your effective threat range can be around 19''-21'' (we assume the re-rolls improve your charge results from 7 to 9) Which is a huge chunk of the battlefield. They are terrifying on the assault with their furious charge, rage and hatred from the locus. This basically means bloodcrushers can pump 5 S6 hits while re-rolling failed to hit rolls. Auch. Their boss is also a very resilient anti-psyker unit with the capability to deflect psychic attacks on a 3+ and forcing perils on ANY doubles.
Cons:
a)the warp table can be detrimental but also a boon and actually be beneficial around half (54, roughly speaking, of the time we will get benefits for no downsides). The dice gods are fickle but they can be generous. I still remember that time I rolled two elevens in a row.
b) the bloodtithe won't kick in until your army has been bloodied badly (1/3 of it) or the enemy's, so it's slightly redundant. Meanwhile the psyker herald can buff his army from the get-go.
c) they are FRAIL. Their toughest unit is a vehicle (can only be wounded 1/6 of the time by regular soldiers and better pray that the nurgle herald didn't roll armourbane).
d) lack rewards to improve our sarges and herald.
e) our troop choice is border-line useless in this match. Daemons have now armor so AP3 means crap and even on the charge the enemy will cause more wounds (75% always versus a 66% or lower chance) than them unless they are targetting the nurglings... which is a slowed idea as the little buggers are tarpit.
On the other hand most of the nurglite army is fething slow (6'' move with no chance to run). So the KDK will be able to dance around them. Sure, the plague drones are as (if not more!) mobile as the khornate units but the blood god's minions have army wide mobility while over 3/4 of nurgle's forces are pretty damn slow. On the flip side the nurgle army is fething tough. The core force is t4 and will have a 5++/5+++ FNP, meaning less than half the wounds will get through. This can be brought to hilarious extremes with the right rolls on the warlord traits and greater rewards as our herald (whom can get a total 4-wounds to become a monstrous creature lite). They have psykers so they can buff their forces or bring reinforcements from the very beginning. We can benefit from warp storm but it can also shank us REAL hard. We have shooting (in the form of the death's heads and maybe som maledictions witchfires) and better meele overall due to our superior resilience.
Here's where we're at so far in the original bracket, projected winners are highlighted in yellow.
R1 Match #1: Space Marines vs. CSM R1 Match #2: Necrons vs. Tau R1 Match #3: Space Wolves vs. Khorne Daemons
R1 Match #4: Imperial Guard vs. Eldar R1 Match #5: Blood Angels vs. Dark Eldar
R1 Match #6: Scions vs. Nurgle Daemons
R1 Match #7: Skitarii vs. Orks
R1 Match #8: Tyranids
Daemon infighting bonus match: in progress
Anybody want to try narrating any upcoming matches? (do BA Martel!)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/01 17:38:03
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
5285 Carcharadons Astra, 3000 XIX Legion
AM: 3170, ABG: 5045, MT: 755
Skit: 1470, CM: 500, QKCL: 4870
2348
Assassins: 1140
750 
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If 
