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Martel732 wrote:
Do BA even have a get started set?

Termie captain, Baal Predator and Tac squad. FNP and IWND in 12" of Captain. Honestly I'd give the win to DE. They seem better for once.

Actually, DE versus BA is quite one sided in favor of the BA.


The baal predator just renders the poor DE unable to do anything. the assault cannon turret poors down fire from "far enough", while the heavy flamers will decimate any DE trooper foolish enough to come close.

The DE however, can't really touch the ball in range other than a handful of dark lances, but if you are in dark lance range, the baal can drive up to assault cannon range.

There is simply no way to safely engage the baal.

Then you pile on the marines and the captain-they don't need to do anyhting fancy, just camp out wherever they cover the most objectives so if anything gets close they can start shooting it.
Pack a lascanon so you can ping away at the raider right off the bat and force it to jink, negating much of the little AT that the DE has around, flamer to punish any would-be charges even further than how much its a bad idea to charge cabalites/3 bikes on a marine squad with a terminator captain attached, and volla.


BA wins by utter zone control. even though they got a lousy as hell formation, the fact they got a fast tank with templates is simply something the DE kit is not set out to handle.

The reasoning for victory is easy:

1) have the bloodletters hunker down on one of the objectives, thus denying the enemy of the chance of getting fully the secondary (6+ pts down our bank). The bloodletters will be useless in this match as they'll have only a single attack that will wound on 3+/4+ AT BEST, thanks to the defensive grenades called being daemons of nurgle.
2) place the blood throne and the crushers on one side and focus them on the unit of nurglings charging at whatever place they are at.

Now, the herald could boost their toughness with the 6th spell in the nurgle lore but at best we are getting a 1/3 chance and then it can fail (let's say we spend 3 dice on the WC1 version so as to deny ID on the nurglings. we will fail 1/8, meaning that plan will only work a 1/4 of the time but it would be a really uphill battle for the khornate forces)
The KDK army must target first the nurglings/plague drones. The reason is simple: they are the "weaker" units as the early will be IDed on the charge and the latter though stronger has very few models which means that losing combat and failing checks will feth them over.
KDK doesn't need to wipe out the nurgle forces, just whittle them down and let instability do the job. Sure you can recover the whole unit but that's only a 3% of the time so unless you use a loaded dice don't count on it.
Just charge the crushers and the throne on whatever unit you fancy (preferably the plague drones/nurglings) and try to maximize the number of wounds. The crushers do 10 attacks on the charge (no bonus due to nurgle daemons!) at s6 and 3 HoW at S5. Supposing you go for the drones you will score 1 wound from HoW (1.5 wounds and save 0.5) and then hit 9 times (89,1 percent for 3+ and re-rolling for hatred from the locus which SHOULD and MUST be within 12'') and wound 6 times to cause 4 wounds. At that point the drones will be wiped out in 97 out of 100 of situations as the demonic instability will obliterate them on anything but a double 1. their damage output will be:

1) they passed their fear check (they AREN'T fearless) around 60% of the time: 5 hits and roughly 3-4 wounds.
2)they failed their fear check (around 40%): 3.33 (3) hits and wounds 66% of the time (89 if it's within the grotti's range, which I somehow doubt it will likely). so like 2
Statistically speaking the nurgle player won't kill any crusher should he go first (well... he may witha bit of luck). But in either case the squad can and will be obliterated in a round of combat should the thorne intervene. And in case 2) they WILL regardless of the throne's participation. And let me tell you this is in the case they made a charge through terrain (and dropped to I1). Otherwise the drones are deadmeat before they can try to poke the khorne fellows. Their shooting attacks can wound 2/3 of the time but miss half the time so in truth you're looking at 3 hits and 2 wounds which translates into a wound or so. Barely a scratch. Sure you can move 2d6'' but you were within 12'' before so you need to roll an 8 or higher to avoid the charge (and then the enemy would have a decent change at getting you).

Regardless. The nurgle army will be forced to fight in a tightly packed formation least their units be picked apart by the rampaging enemy but even then the khorne daemonkin can strategically charge and disrupt their force, being by a long shot the most likely to get first blood. We are also more likely to get linebreaker (and deny it) with our better mobility.
The nurgle player can still try to screen with the bearers+herald but they need to fan out very thinly spread and the KDK can use it in their favor: as they'll charge the unit in a way the herald of nurgle cannot get into CC (like the tip of one of the sides) and then force instability checks that will further weaken the nurgle army. The chariot could strike right head-on and the crushers on the flank bringing a potential of 6 (more reallistically 3-4) HoW at S7 and 3 at S5. Best case scenario we would get 7 wounds which under normal circumstances would net 3 dead bearers (down a 50%-ish from FNP given by the locus and invul) Again the


Short answer: do the KDK get the charge-specially with their heavy hitters-? They win. Otherwise they are more likely to lose due to the sheer resiliance from the other side. But the thing is that the KDK are the most likely to get the charge with their effective 22-23 (we assume the average goes by one from 3-4 to 4-5) threat range versus an average of mainly 13'' inches from most of the nurgles. If the drones charge first they can heavily wound the crushers but they'll surely attack first and pull enough wounds as to deny them the chance of victory with a bit of luck (namely they deal 3 unsaved wounds, one more than average... not unlikely as how often I get to fail 5 ups) or hold up til the raging chariot makes it. Meanwhile the nurgle forces would still be far behind.

Depending how it goes I see KDK getting 1st blood and linebreaker, dominating secondary while nurgle gets primary (16 vs 12) or that they went for an all out meele and the nurgle daemons lost due to the nurgle daemons managed to focus ALL their units into one of the nurgle ones and wipe it out with instability and wound saturation. 10 blood thirsters with hatred translate into 3 dead nurglings and the crushers can almost kill 5 of them. The throne can deal tremendous damage too and kill a couple more models and thus offset the S6 against toughness 3 or 2 netting them a couple of wounds to reduce the advantage but at three attacks he's missing at least once and maybe facing another one saving thus saying that it's a reallistic bet that he will still test instability on ld 8-10+3 or 2 for those inexperienced.

The key is the same as alway for khorne units: get into combat earlier than anyone. Be king.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I disagree with Boomwolf.

The baal predator has two main weapons:

a) the tl Assault cannon will net 3.6 hits and 1.8 glances but it can be taken down to 0.9/0.6 damage with the right position and nightshields.
b) the flamestorm will burn the deldar inside but it will take a minimum of 2 turns assuming we both deployed at the maximum distance from the edge. Which the deldar most likely won't and maybe not the blood angels.

In both cases the blood angels won't get to fire them should they go first (since neither the tank nor the enemy deployed at the 12'' mark to avoid getting shot down first) but most likely in the first one.
The eldar can win but like always they need a bit of clever management.

I might as well throw in how I think the DE vs BA fight will go.
Now, I'm not well versed on the BA codex, so if I make any incorrect assumptions please forgive.

DE loadout: 400 points
Archon w/Shadowfield, WWP, blaster
9 man Warriors w/blaster, Sybarite w/ HGW
Raider w/ Night shields, dark lance
Reavers w/ CC and heat lance

Blood Angels loadout (if others would say take a different loadout thats fine, as you probably know more about them then i do) 445 points
Captain in termie armor w/ thunderhammer, auspex, storm bolter
10 man tac squad with heavy bolter, plasma gun, combi-plasma
Baal predator with asscan and heavy bolters

So, with this loadout the BA have a bunch of firepower to kill just about everything the DE have, but the DE have a bunch of firepower too.
The way I see it happening is the DE keep the Reavers far back for the first turn or two with everything else in deep strike for the WWP to drop them right next to the Baal and try to pop it. The BA can take objectives during that time, but catching the Reavers isn't very likely. When they do finally come in, I think that they can take out the tank, with two blasters, a haywire grenade, and a dark lance.
Assuming good placement by the BA, the Raider will almost immediately die from return fire before the Reavers can get to them. After than, the tac squad with the captain is probably going to get worn down by HOW from the Reavers, and the single turn of shooting the Warriors will get after falling out of their raider, as the tac squad will have fired everything, so unable to charge that turn.

Feel free to correct if i made any mistakes or bad assumptions.

Using the WWP is suicide. If the baal catches the reavers, and it can, it's tabling.

Raiders are open topped so if the baal pred gets it with the flame storm it's gg.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Using the WWP is suicide. If the baal catches the reavers, and it can, it's tabling.

How so? The Baal has 1-2 turns to try and catch them, and they will be hiding as far back as possible. If it moves towards them, the Reavers can just boost somewhere else

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Raiders are open topped so if the baal pred gets it with the flame storm it's gg.

Yup, which is why they try and pop it with the dark lance, 2 blasters, and haywire grenade. If they fail at that then they're toast, but if they get it then its gg for the blood angels

Gonna go with Tau, the Crisis team can take Skyfire or I would run them as 2 with 2CiB,TL and 1 as a mini buff suit, ignore cover/twinlink/monster or tank hunter,and the firewarrior team with the ethereal and drones can pump out enough shots to not need skyfire and keep most things at a distance while the suits harrass them with JSJ

@ Kragan -- Nice to see your logic on the Nurgle versus Khorne battle, its one of the matchups I wished I'd had space for in the initial bracket. Well done, Khorne takes the Daemon vs. Daemon grudge match. Good show

@ Dioxayln -- Tau has the benefit of massive customization, that's really strong in a format where you can't choose units. We'll probably see them make final 4 at least, if we can carry out this thread to its conclusion.

@ BA versus DE commentators -- here's the scenario for the next matchup. We'll try and help DE a bit by making it a simple Objectives + KP mission. Remember this combat patrol format is on a 4' by 4' board, so there's a bit less room to hide in these matches.

R1 Match #5: Blood Angels vs. Dark Eldar

Scenario #2 (No Quarter)
====================
Deployment - Hammer and Anvil
Primary - Objective Control (12pts)
Secondary - Units 100% destroyed (12pts)
Tertiary - First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker (2pts each)
Terrain: Moderate LOS Screening, 6x Objectives, 4' x 4' tabletop
Modifiers: Formations are mandatory if available, use the GW Draft FAQs + Errata
Constraints: Box contents only, only one Relic upgrade may be taken by each HQ, no proxies, don't go crazy with minor upgrades, Forgeworld benefits not be used.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Using the WWP is suicide. If the baal catches the reavers, and it can, it's tabling.

How so? The Baal has 1-2 turns to try and catch them, and they will be hiding as far back as possible. If it moves towards them, the Reavers can just boost somewhere else

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Raiders are open topped so if the baal pred gets it with the flame storm it's gg.

Yup, which is why they try and pop it with the dark lance, 2 blasters, and haywire grenade. If they fail at that then they're toast, but if they get it then its gg for the blood angels

The table is mere 4x4, they really can't stay out of range unless the terrain is really thick. They'll avoid the flamesr via boosting, but not the cannon. And the cannon kills one or two on the average volley, potentially causing an ld brake. (if the BA chose heavy bolters rather than flamer, killing the entire biker group in one volley is well within the realm of possibility)

While the Raider is away, the lascanon group might as well throw more potshots at the bikes, and after the combat squad you got the lascanon group and the flamer group covering a hell lot of ground to prevent boosting there being a rational option.

The WWP raider drop however, has no guarantee to drop at turn 2,it might be only on turn 4.

Its just not good strategy to use deepstrike on such small forces.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Using the WWP is suicide. If the baal catches the reavers, and it can, it's tabling.

You got it: IF. It's the same deal as eldar jetbikes, only worse, they aren't afraid of terrain with their. The baal has no way whatsoever to get the bikes if they move smart (read: go to anywhere in the map, which they can rich with their 48'' move+turbo) where the BAngels won't get them). The Flamestorm cannon's will wreck Deldar but it threat range is just 20''. Even while being right at the center it may not be able to reach the bikes.

Also, it may drop on turn 4 but with labirinthine cunning (30% chance) your chances are... like 3%, and around 10% otherwise. The chances of you entering in turn 4 are extremely low.

If you can upgrade the units however you want, the Nurgle box has a very powerful little death star.

Herald of nurgle: ML2, FnP upgrade, Grimoire of true names.

Upgrade the PB and drone serpents to have lesser rewards (plague flails for +1S for this match, usually etherblades though). The drones should also have every upgrade, poison +3 is insane, and the Sgt being S5 poison +3, he will be doing serious work.
Drop him in with the drones. You can either give him biomancy for the potential self buffs. Any of the blessings will be amazingly awesome. You could also go for malediction, but your only ML2, so summoning is a crapshoot, and its a very smal chance for cursed earth.

Drones with grimoire will be able to run through the entire khorne army with little trouble. They are also faster than anything but the chariot. However the chariot can very easily double tap the nurglings and PBs.
Daemons are not fearless, but the auto pass fear, so no worries about that. The double warp storm would play a big role in this battle.

Nurglings will be a good fight against bloodletters, but a good shot from the cannon will kill them.

Bottom line, as long as grimoire is on the drones, Khorne army wont want to engage. I would sit back and take pot shots with the cannon, kill the nurglings first, so they can't mess with anything, 12 attacks/wounds is nothing to scoff at. I have 3 man nurgling squads tie up and take out marines often enough. Then I would pot shot the PB once or twice. Lastly focus on the drones.

Of course, as a nurgle player with this setup, I would have an icon on my drones, PB would have icon/instrument, and I would probably go all out. Hold the troops in reserves and risk it all. That cannon's ignore cover will really mess up Nurgle stuff!

Bloodletters are basically S4 guardsmen, as they will never have the bonus attack. Defensive grenades prevents that from happening, so if they charge through cover, they are totally dead, even nurglings would win that combat.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
If you can upgrade the units however you want, the Nurgle box has a very powerful little death star.

Herald of nurgle: ML2, FnP upgrade, Grimoire of true names.

Upgrade the PB and drone serpents to have lesser rewards (plague flails for +1S for this match, usually etherblades though). The drones should also have every upgrade, poison +3 is insane, and the Sgt being S5 poison +3, he will be doing serious work.
Drop him in with the drones. You can either give him biomancy for the potential self buffs. Any of the blessings will be amazingly awesome. You could also go for malediction, but your only ML2, so summoning is a crapshoot, and its a very smal chance for cursed earth.

Drones with grimoire will be able to run through the entire khorne army with little trouble. They are also faster than anything but the chariot. However the chariot can very easily double tap the nurglings and PBs.
Daemons are not fearless, but the auto pass fear, so no worries about that. The double warp storm would play a big role in this battle.

Nurglings will be a good fight against bloodletters, but a good shot from the cannon will kill them.

Bottom line, as long as grimoire is on the drones, Khorne army wont want to engage. I would sit back and take pot shots with the cannon, kill the nurglings first, so they can't mess with anything, 12 attacks/wounds is nothing to scoff at. I have 3 man nurgling squads tie up and take out marines often enough. Then I would pot shot the PB once or twice. Lastly focus on the drones.

Of course, as a nurgle player with this setup, I would have an icon on my drones, PB would have icon/instrument, and I would probably go all out. Hold the troops in reserves and risk it all. That cannon's ignore cover will really mess up Nurgle stuff!

Bloodletters are basically S4 guardsmen, as they will never have the bonus attack. Defensive grenades prevents that from happening, so if they charge through cover, they are totally dead, even nurglings would win that combat.

There's a serious flaw in your battleplan and you're assuming neither the grimoire nor the reserve rolls will screw you. Yes, the grimoir may up you to a 3++ or a 2++ with the right warpstorm... it can also be down to 4++ with the wrong warpstorm, 6++ a 33% of the time (the reason fateweaver is such a popular receptor of the item is because it makes it less of a crapshoot) or even NONE with the 1-2 result and the wrong warpstorm.
But nevermind: sure drop them and give us the perfect chance to snipe the nurglings with a furious charge, granting us first blood, and obliterate the bearers before you're given half a chance. A 50% of the time we will go first, which means to movement phases (read: 12''+d6 run and another 12'' plus 6+d6 charge, we reach the bottom of the map by turn 2 assuredly). Heck. Even if they drop in turn 1 there's a one in three chance they are buttfucked as they'll have only a 6++ and even otherwise the daemonkin can mass charge them (with our lowest threat range averaging 15-16 inches). Sure a 3++ may be nice But against 3+d6 HoW, 10 S6 attacks, 10 S5 attacks and a few more from the bloodthrone which will hit on 3+ and will re-roll failed hits thanks to the banner? that's 9 S6 hits (6 wounds, 2 unsaved ones) and 9 S5 hits (around 1.5 unsaved wounds which will round up to two wounds with the crushers HoWs) plus two an average of 3 wounds from the chariot (4 hits and 1 failing to wound) causing a seventh wound and the herald and letters from the crew making another unsaved wound. That's 6 unsaved wounds. By the time your wasps have the chance to attack they are dead. Sure you could get endurance, iron arm or some shennanigans. But if the daemons are like the CSM, 1 in 6 chance isn't THAT reliable. Meanwhile, the khornate mass charge won't dissappoint save for extremely unlucky dice rolls.
Sorry but your plan is even worse.

It actually goes down to the blood angels but due to heavy bolter fire!

Assuming the following BAngel list:

Tank with AC and HBs. Captain with that stuff. Squad with a heavy flamer and a melta.

Assuming WWP tactic:

A) Bangels get first turn: Assault cannon fires and hits 3 times (3. something). Wounds thrice and kills a bike. HBs hit twice (2.5 due to snap firing) and wound twice. Cause no wounds. Marines may be lucky and throw a ten shot volley in which case it ends statistically in a GG for them in turn 1.

B) BAngels get second turn: same as above but the bikes scurry away for a whole turn.


Assuming they field the raider:

A) Bangels get first turn: predator neuters the raider, as its forced to jink (and thus nullify the crew's shooting) to survive. The bikes are unable to get close to a S5 ignores cover and armor weapon that autohits when they charge. Blood angels victory.

B) Predator has a 40% of getting knocked by the lance... otherwise its pretty much case A again.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here's all the armies in contention, for reference.
...
8) Blood Throne, 3x Bloodcrushers, 3x Bloodletters

Slight correction:

You can take a Blood Throne OR a skull cannon and separate herald. Also, there are 10 Bloodletters, not 3 (9 if you need to use a base for the herald).

Who's next now?

Units with Daemonic instability auto pass fear tests btw

Lord Kragan wrote:

Sure you could get endurance, iron arm or some shennanigans. But if the daemons are like the CSM, 1 in 6 chance isn't THAT reliable.

Heralds of Nurgle can be ML2, there are 3 powers that would be very useful in this match. Iron arm, warp speed, and mostly, enfeeble. You should learn both sides of the army before making all these wild accusations, then come back and re-evaluate. You are also making plenty of assumptions, but you are very... adamant about this. So I will just drop it so I don't have to see another wall of text.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Sure you could get endurance, iron arm or some shennanigans. But if the daemons are like the CSM, 1 in 6 chance isn't THAT reliable.

Heralds of Nurgle can be ML2, there are 3 powers that would be very useful in this match. Iron arm, warp speed, and mostly, enfeeble. You should learn both sides of the army before making all these wild accusations, then come back and re-evaluate. You are also making plenty of assumptions, but you are very... adamant about this. So I will just drop it so I don't have to see another wall of text.

Then you're getting two walls of text for this kind of comment! Because there's nothing that I hate more than people going around: I'm obviously right so I'm not going to bother arguing.

First thing first: I'm making a modification to my list: we use the skullcannon and the herald goes on foot, we use a unit of 9 letters.

Just to begin with: I'm going to quote myself twice:

"Herald of Nurgle with ML2 and grotty the nurgling. Lesser and greater reward. Has icon of fertilence. "

And
"Sure you could get endurance, iron arm or some shennanigans. But if the daemons are like the CSM,"

Which means if they follow the CSM rules on psychic powers: you MUST roll on your god's table. Sorry if I mixed up rules.

I get what you are saying but I feel you're ignoring several points:

1) Warp speed isn't really useful on an herald: sure you'll get I8... unless you're charging through the ruins the khornates will have repositionated themselves to in the turn they had to prepare themselves (and seeing your list any general worth his chops will account for the drones charging). It only affects the psyker and the heralds is slow so it isn't actually useful. Almost the same goes for Iron Arm: you'll struggle to get into combat and there you'll find the herald disappoints: on warpspeed you're hampered by the "low" WS (you'll always be hitting on 4+, so your number of hits will be reduced drastically) and on iron arm it will be the low WS and low number of attacks hampering him and the toughness bonus won't be worth jackwad as your unit will be either T5/T4 mainly so you won't be harder to wound. IMO iron arm in the herald's case is mere deadweight as he already wounds on a 2+ and the ID treshold is achieved with his already possesed S6 (S5+1 from the weapon, because he's clearly getting the +1s weapon) most of the time. Biomancy is by and large meant to make a meelee beatstick but the heralds ain't material for it. Sure run him alone and then we will see what happens when everyone ignores him and he can't reach anything with his 6'' movement and no run from SnP.

2) A 1/3 chance of getting enfeeble is substancial but a bit unreliably, factor in that you have to sucessfully cast it and it not being denied (which, if you target a properly kited herald-anti-psyker which any khorne herald should be, will have it easier to deny than you cast the power with the collar and the AW granting relic)... yes I think I wouldn't hold my breath over it.

3) There's no double warpstorm, khorne daemonkin isn't affected by it.

4) "You're making plenty of assumptions"... uhm, hello? Your plan relies on a) the enemy not getting 1st turn, (as he'd have enough time to make two shots before you, plus make reliable charges on the nurglings), which is a 1/2 chance. b) once you make it to turn 2, the dice rolls don't bone you when rolling for reserves (89%, you need to fail the bearers and drones) nor positioning (on the bearers, l'd say 90%). THEN that the grimoire doesn't butfuck you (66% chance). At the astounding chance of 26,7% (possible but quite unlikely ) of times you'll have that tough unit on the enemy's mouth. This is not factoring the chances of getting enfeeble (as the others will be useless on the turn 2) which are 33%. Your plan has an 8.9 chance of success before even factoring the casting and DtW. There's a stronger chance of your drones and herald making it alone into the fight which means that, even if nurgle gets the initiative, we could just wipe out the enemy unit of nurglings with the crushers, secure 1st blood and one of the objectives (or maybe BOTH if we park the skullcannon in the right place), get the relic with the herald and letters and wait for you to come at us on turn 3 as you'll be bogged down to I1 and we will wither your damage output before you swing at us, and we don't care at all about casualties as the daemonkin are fearless.

So, we have any takers on the BA vs DE matchup?

I did a bit of it, truth is the match up ends quickly in the BA's favor once I got down to it in a more serious focus.

If we use the WWP plan the chances of the bikes being wiped out are far too high: realistically, the predator could gun them down with the heavy bolters and assault cannon in an above average round of firing (as we average 3.6 AC hits and 2.5 HB hits, which translate into 2.376 AC wounds and 1.66 HB wounds, statistically killing a bike or even two should they have a bit of poor luck, and the boltguns can finish the job should they operate statistically). With that tactic you're guaranteed to lose half the time, because the marine player will ensure his squad is close enough to bring a heavy flamer to bear (which will slaughter the Deldar) and there's a 1/3 of you failing the reserve roll so you may well get tabled on turn two. Alternatively you could deepstrike the archon's squad but I think it's pretty obvious how bad of an idea can it be considering the BAngels have a heavy flamer in their kit (which they should always take, range be damned)

If we don't use the WWP we are dependant on getting first turn or else the heavy bolters and assualt cannon can bone the raider, averaging 0.6 glances and 1.2 pens from the AC and 0.8 glances/pens from heavy bolters firing. The chances of it screwing over the raider are just too big for the DE player to opt not to jink and thus neuter his whole army's shooting power. From there onwards the Deldar force would be unable to do pheasible damage due to underperforming orks during shooting. If they get 1st turn they need to hit with the lance and then pen and then the predator fail a cover save (because we are clever and we decided to hide it or screen the squad, didn't we?). Literally 0.77 hits, we will only cause a pen a 26% of the time (damaging the tank a 39%) and that damage will be there to stay a 17,3% of the time, and we will blow it up a 3% of the time. Reallistically you're looking at the prior number: you need the predator out of the fire, as it can account for half the number of shots of the BAs. Deldar can win 17.3% of the time, and that's assuming nothing goes wrong like the HBs (whom can average 0.33 damage in that state) get above average rolls as well as the AC (whom can average 0.6 damage) doing that. And in truth it's actually lower as that 17,3% doesn't factorize BAs getting 1st turn, in which case they are utterly boned.

Well, that does seem like a one sided fight. So who is up next?

Either skitarii vs orks or tempestus vs nurgle forces, the latter being actually a quite close matchup while the other is an almost foregone conclusion on the skitarii's favor.