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I think the OP has it backwards. The link between 40k and Fantasy was a very old component of the lore, as in, rogue trader and 2nd edition 40k era. They dropped that line of thought thereafter as 40k gained a stable foundation (also purged the Squats and generally began de-fantasy-ing 40k). Even so, back then the link was very tenuous. The Old Ones may have or may not have been the same as in 40k, but, even if they were, Fantasy existed in an alternate dimension. Chaos spilled over into both because they do exist in a realm of impossibility, so why not, daemons are cool. My favorite part was always the stories of 40k relics appearing in Fantasy, like some form of warp flotsam. Imagine a marauder warlord finding a bolter... Anyways, Malal was the god of mutation and anti-chaos. It sought to literally destroy the other chaos gods. I suppose GW could make it so that Malal in 40k (which has not been a thing in a very long time) was in fact an echo of the Horned Rat through the warp, but it would serve no purpose, since Malal does not exist in modern 40k.

It used to be linked and the old world was just a single world in the universe AoS might have ended that with their whole nd of reality stuff.

Before that there where numerous examples of 40k weapons popping up in the Chaos, Amazon and lizardmen equipment / magic item lists

So Malal/Malice definitively didn't dethrone Slaneesh in the 40k universe but he still exists as a minor fifth god,

This is confirmed by the Sons of Malice traitor legion that used to be a regualr loyalist chapter who eat the corpses of their enemies and then were kicked out the imperium by the inquisition because of it and start worshipping Malice ie. Malal, ie The Great Horned One.

From what i understand though he is pretty minor and other then them doesnt have many followers and they dont do much cause they consider themselves enemies of the imperium and chaos alike.

As for the link between universes... Maybe threw some warp daemon mumbo-jumbo, cause isnt that how orks got to 40k?

But i dont think there is any direct or open link


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really I hope they make space skraven a think soon, then maybe we can seem some more malice/malal/great horned rat worshipers, or they could worship nurgle some more, or both.

"In the Warp, things are different, for the Immaterium is not bound by linear time and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. As his rival gods reckon it, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp and yet has never existed at all" - 6th Ed. Chaos Demon Codex.

Slaanesh is an important part of the Chaos fluff, and he's not going anywhere. Not in Age of Sigmar lore and certainly not in 40k lore. She's just having a nap in AoS - gorging on all those tasty Elf souls at the sundering of the Old World does tend to make one sleepy.

 Caesar3594 wrote:
So Malal/Malice definitively didn't dethrone Slaneesh in the 40k universe but he still exists as a minor fifth god,

This is confirmed by the Sons of Malice traitor legion that used to be a regualr loyalist chapter who eat the corpses of their enemies and then were kicked out the imperium by the inquisition because of it and start worshipping Malice ie. Malal, ie The Great Horned One.

From what i understand though he is pretty minor and other then them doesnt have many followers and they dont do much cause they consider themselves enemies of the imperium and chaos alike.

As for the link between universes... Maybe threw some warp daemon mumbo-jumbo, cause isnt that how orks got to 40k?

But i dont think there is any direct or open link


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really I hope they make space skraven a think soon, then maybe we can seem some more malice/malal/great horned rat worshipers, or they could worship nurgle some more, or both.

on an aside thats whats kinda interesting about malal, the more you dont talk about him the stronger he gets. There is a fan theory floating about the inter tubes that the Big E is actually Malal or at least is working with him in some way, or is trapped specifically by malal.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So with the great solid writing of age of sigmar, pretty boy slannesh got his/her butt kicked and de throned by the great horned rat. As a result the great horned rat took her/his place as a chaos God.

Since it has been proven and is accepted both fantasy and 40k are linked via the warp, does this now mean, technically, slannesh is also out of power in 40k as well and that the great horned rat is a God In 40k as well? Or is now canon malice?

Would at least be a good way to progress eldar lore.

I dont think any of your premise is proven or accepted.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So with the great solid writing of age of sigmar, pretty boy slannesh got his/her butt kicked and de throned by the great horned rat. As a result the great horned rat took her/his place as a chaos God.

Since it has been proven and is accepted both fantasy and 40k are linked via the warp, does this now mean, technically, slannesh is also out of power in 40k as well and that the great horned rat is a God In 40k as well? Or is now canon malice?

Would at least be a good way to progress eldar lore.

Slaanesh didn't get his butt kicked by the Horned Rat, he just went missing after a plot by Tzeentch.
While the Realm of Chaos is multiversal, it is also beyond time, so while Slaanesh may well be missing he's also not missing, and we don't know exactly how time would sync up between the AoS universe and the 40k universe.
Also, the Horned Rat is nothing like Malice.

pm713 wrote:
Could also be a Stormcast or anything from the infinite realms of AOS.

Possible, but doubtful, they met the Knight during the End Times, Stormcast Eternals did not even exist in the real world yet.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.

Actually it was just the planet, the winds of magic and the core of the world then flew off into space.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
on an aside thats whats kinda interesting about malal, the more you dont talk about him the stronger he gets. There is a fan theory floating about the inter tubes that the Big E is actually Malal or at least is working with him in some way, or is trapped specifically by malal.

Malal has never been attributed that power. You're perhaps thinking of Necoho, who was essentially a god of atheism. In truth Malal does not exist, GW cannot use him for legal reasons, so the closest you can get is making a reference character like Malice.

I would imagine the Chaos Gods live outside of dimensions. 40k and Fantasy could live in different realities and timelines (besides of course... games...). As for GHR overthrowing Slaanesh, for all we know Mr/Mrs/It Slaanesh could just say "eh, that reality is boring now, you can have it ugly, I'm gonna go *unspeakable things* over in my favorite reality".


Never know.

They long cut the ties between the two settings.

Malal is sort of still around in 40 K. He's just called by name and it's mostly kinda like easter eggs. I can remember some fluff about a random black (or was it red) star apearing and bringing a bad omen with it. I thought it had something to do with him.

Edit: It was the Tyrant Star.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
They long cut the ties between the two settings.

Not true. When the Daemons were released they said that they were the same entities in both settings.
In Kaldor Draigo: Knight of Titan Draigo sees the Warhammer Fantasy World while strolling through the Warp and decided to try go there.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Malal is sort of still around in 40 K. He's just called by name and it's mostly kinda like easter eggs.

Malal never actually appeared in any 40k publication, Phraz-Etar actually has more cross universal power as he has been mentioned in both.
Malal is as canon to the 40k universe as Judge Dredd, that is to say he is not, but similar elements can be found.

Animus wrote:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
They long cut the ties between the two settings.

Not true. When the Daemons were released they said that they were the same entities in both settings.
In Kaldor Draigo: Knight of Titan Draigo sees the Warhammer Fantasy World while strolling through the Warp and decided to try go there.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Malal is sort of still around in 40 K. He's just called by name and it's mostly kinda like easter eggs.

Malal never actually appeared in any 40k publication, Phraz-Etar actually has more cross universal power as he has been mentioned in both.
Malal is as canon to the 40k universe as Judge Dredd, that is to say he is not, but similar elements can be found.

Yeah, same entities because Chaos is the same in 40K and WHF. They do the same kind of things they would do in the other setting. It does not mean that they are directly connected.

And as I said Malal/Malice only is mentioned in 40K through easter eggs. 3rd ed. Chaos Codex both mention Dread Axe and the Sons of Malice. (Their patron god doesn't get mentioned, but they love to figh other Chaos dudes.)

And is it litetally called the whf world in that book? If not, it could be any feudal world inhabbited by humans and xenos that they did not discover.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Yeah, same entities because Chaos is the same in 40K and WHF. They do the same kind of things they would do in the other setting. It does not mean that they are directly connected.

It means they are directly connected by Chaos.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
And is it litetally called the whf world in that book? If not, it could be any feudal world inhabbited by humans and xenos that they did not discover.

No, as the Warhammer world does not have a name. It does call it an old world, mention the winds of magic and a god king standing against Chaos, which is of course Sigmar.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:


And as I said Malal/Malice only is mentioned in 40K through easter eggs. 3rd ed. Chaos Codex both mention Dread Axe and the Sons of Malice. (Their patron god doesn't get mentioned, but they love to figh other Chaos dudes.)

Uh... while Malal is most definitely NOT mentioned in 40k (I think the copyright issues of the guy who invented him for a White Dwarf comic are in full effect) Malice most definitely IS. The short story "Labyrinth" about the Sons of Malice CSM's is the only reason "Malice" is an entity at all.

^ This. Slaanesh still existed before The Fall, thanks to timey wimey shenanigans.

It didn't.
At least not in the physical universe before the Fall. Now the Warp is a weird place, and as time works differently there Slaanesh has indeed always existed in that dimension, but that is the reality of Warp creatures, not the reality of the physical universe. Slaanesh did not exist in any form capable of interacting with or manipulating the physical realm in any way. In the physical realm we can draw a clear line between before and after Slaanesh came to exist.

Citation needed. The only canon quotes I've seen regarding this say that Slaanesh has always existed despite being "born" at The Fall, because time is meaningless in the Warp. I've seen nothing that declared that s/he couldn't effect the universe before The Fall. Sounds like headcanon to me.

Anyway, as other people have mentioned, Malal/Malice doesn't have a whole lot in common with the Horned Rat. Really, the Horned Rat has a lot more in common with Nurgle (bringing pestilence everywhere, heck Skaven Plague Monks are indistinguishable from Nurgle worshippers except they're rat-people) and Tzeentch (setting up a hierarchal society that's constantly scheming and backstabbing). Where's the self-destruction, misanthropy, anarchy, and penchant for omnicide? This is actually a problem I have with the Horned Rat becoming part of the Big Four as a concept. He covers a lot of the same territory as the others.

 fallinq wrote:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:


And as I said Malal/Malice only is mentioned in 40K through easter eggs. 3rd ed. Chaos Codex both mention Dread Axe and the Sons of Malice. (Their patron god doesn't get mentioned, but they love to figh other Chaos dudes.)

Uh... while Malal is most definitely NOT mentioned in 40k (I think the copyright issues of the guy who invented him for a White Dwarf comic are in full effect) Malice most definitely IS. The short story "Labyrinth" about the Sons of Malice CSM's is the only reason "Malice" is an entity at all.

^ This. Slaanesh still existed before The Fall, thanks to timey wimey shenanigans.

It didn't.
At least not in the physical universe before the Fall. Now the Warp is a weird place, and as time works differently there Slaanesh has indeed always existed in that dimension, but that is the reality of Warp creatures, not the reality of the physical universe. Slaanesh did not exist in any form capable of interacting with or manipulating the physical realm in any way. In the physical realm we can draw a clear line between before and after Slaanesh came to exist.

Citation needed. The only canon quotes I've seen regarding this say that Slaanesh has always existed despite being "born" at The Fall, because time is meaningless in the Warp. I've seen nothing that declared that s/he couldn't effect the universe before The Fall. Sounds like headcanon to me.

Time is meaningless in the Warp. The material universe however remains very much bound by it. Slaanesh affecting the material universe before existing is quite simply impossible. The birth of Slaanesh is a very clearly described event. Before it there was no Slaanesh, after it there was. If Slaanesh had already existed there could have been no birth, for there would have been nothing to be born.
Also, I have never seen anything that declared that Slaanesh could affect the material universe before being born, making that headcanon, not the other way around. That is shifting the burden of proof

 Iron_Captain wrote:


Time is meaningless in the Warp. The material universe however remains very much bound by it. Slaanesh affecting the material universe before existing is quite simply impossible. The birth of Slaanesh is a very clearly described event. Before it there was no Slaanesh, after it there was. If Slaanesh had already existed there could have been no birth, for there would have been nothing to be born.
Also, I have never seen anything that declared that Slaanesh could affect the material universe before being born, making that headcanon, not the other way around. That is shifting the burden of proof

Sooo impossible warp beings are bound by real world physics and logic, even when it's clearly stated in the fictional universe that they reside in that they aren't. Kay, sure.

I mean, we're arguing about the fictional rules that govern beings that VIOLATE REAL WORLD NATURAL LAWS, and you're using real world natural laws to say that your opinion is canon. Not how it works. The only "authority" on what chaos gods can and can't do is what is flat out stated in the source material. So no, I'm not "shifting the burden of proof."

Maybe Slaanesh could affect the physical world of the 40k verse before "birth" (which was nothing like a natural, biological birth, BTW) and maybe not. I've never claimed more than that. You, on the other hand, have. If you can't back it up with explicit statements from source material, it's theories and headcanon.

...I can't believe that I have to explain that fiction doesn't always run on real world logic. If this argument continues, it's going to get stupid fast.

As I recall, Andy Chambers said (at Games Day c2000) that if we really wanted an in-universe explanation for the commonalities between the two game settings, it was that the Warhammer World was a microcosm of the 40k universe, created by the Old Ones (who may or may not be the Slaan) in order to discern how creation might be saved from Chaos.

Or we could, you know, just accept the real-world explanation that back in 1987 40k was written with Space Elves, Space Dwarfs, Space Orks, etc. to capitalise on the popularity of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. (How things can change in thirty years...)

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:


And as I said Malal/Malice only is mentioned in 40K through easter eggs. 3rd ed. Chaos Codex both mention Dread Axe and the Sons of Malice. (Their patron god doesn't get mentioned, but they love to figh other Chaos dudes.)

Uh... while Malal is most definitely NOT mentioned in 40k (I think the copyright issues of the guy who invented him for a White Dwarf comic are in full effect) Malice most definitely IS. The short story "Labyrinth" about the Sons of Malice CSM's is the only reason "Malice" is an entity at all.

Malal/Malice/The Great Horned Rat are all them same entity under different names being worshiped by different rances

 Caesar3594 wrote:
Malal/Malice/The Great Horned Rat are all them same entity under different names being worshiped by different races.

Citation needed.

(Which is a nice way of saying 'this statement is unsupported anywhere in 40k canon'.)

Um, yeah no. The first two are litterally a slight name variation from different races languages, all three are described the same in fluff. He is the offical 5th smaller unallied ruinous power.
The sons of malice areally described as "worshiping a great rat god known as Malice" Age of sigmar/ fantady uses malal and the great horned rate interchangably.

I dont have to site what is obviously said multiple times in the fluff.

If you want to claim it's not true then you have to provide citation or proof that your claims are true.

In this case its innocent until proven guilty. Or correct until proven false.

 Caesar3594 wrote:
If you want to claim it's not true then you have to provide citation or proof that your claims are true.

In this case its innocent until proven guilty. Or correct until proven false.

I really shouldn't have to explain this to an adult human being, but that is not how the burden of proof works.

Not in this case. I have provided logic that suports

Malal = Great horned Rat
And that
Great Horned Rat = Malice

Thus the basic logic and the transtivie property malal also equals malice and their all the same minor god.

How is this so hard to grasp? It's very clear.

I don't have to justify my reasoning.

Why do you think otherwise? How are they not the same?

Malal and the Horned Rat are different though. Malal was kind of the 'anti-chaos' chaos God, where as the Great Horned Rat isn't. Past their appearance they don't seem to have much in common

 fallinq wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:


Time is meaningless in the Warp. The material universe however remains very much bound by it. Slaanesh affecting the material universe before existing is quite simply impossible. The birth of Slaanesh is a very clearly described event. Before it there was no Slaanesh, after it there was. If Slaanesh had already existed there could have been no birth, for there would have been nothing to be born.
Also, I have never seen anything that declared that Slaanesh could affect the material universe before being born, making that headcanon, not the other way around. That is shifting the burden of proof

Sooo impossible warp beings are bound by real world physics and logic, even when it's clearly stated in the fictional universe that they reside in that they aren't. Kay, sure.

I mean, we're arguing about the fictional rules that govern beings that VIOLATE REAL WORLD NATURAL LAWS, and you're using real world natural laws to say that your opinion is canon. Not how it works. The only "authority" on what chaos gods can and can't do is what is flat out stated in the source material. So no, I'm not "shifting the burden of proof."

I am not saying that warp beings are bound by real world physics, I am saying that the material universe in 40k is (mostly at least). Within the Warp, warp creatures are not bound by the laws governing the material universe. If they interact with the material universe however they and their interactions with it are. The evidence for this is found in the fluff. Otherwise a Plaguebearer would have been able to do things like flying or walking through solid walls. In the Warp it would have been able to do so, provided that Nurgle would given it that power. In the material universe however it is never going to happen no matter what power it has been given. Warp creatures are bound by the laws of the material universe when in the material universe. It is really quite obvious in the fluff.
Also, I am not using natural laws from the real world, these are 40k natural laws. They are quite evident in existance when reading the fluff. Or would you like to argue there is no gravity or time in 40k?

 fallinq wrote:
Maybe Slaanesh could affect the physical world of the 40k verse before "birth" (which was nothing like a natural, biological birth, BTW) and maybe not. I've never claimed more than that. You, on the other hand, have. If you can't back it up with explicit statements from source material, it's theories and headcanon.

I don't have to proof a negative claim, as the negative is the default position. You have made a positive claim (Slaanesh may have been able to affect physicial world before its birth). This means that per the standard rules of a (scientific) discussion, the burden of proof is on you. There has never been anything written afaik in the fluff about whether Slaanesh could affect the material universe before it was born. Therefore, since we lack any proof either way we have to accept the negative postion as default.

Consider it like this:
Leprechauns may or may not exist in 40k. No one has ever read about a leprechaun in 40k. We have no evidence for their existance in 40k canon. Yet at the same time we also have no evidence to disprove their existance with, as it has never been explicitly written that leprechauns don't exist in 40k. So should we seriously consider the existance of leprechauns in 40k? or not?

 fallinq wrote:
...I can't believe that I have to explain that fiction doesn't always run on real world logic. If this argument continues, it's going to get stupid fast.

No, fiction does not always run of real world logic. In the vast majority of cases however, it does. (it would be a very, very weird read otherwise ). Also, this argument is stupid already. It is an argument about fictional entities in a fictional universe. Having an argument about that was stupid from the moment it started.

The Great Horned Rat is an anti chas god, just like the other 2 names he is called

 Caesar3594 wrote:
I don't have to justify my reasoning.

If you wish your reasoning to be taken seriously, it is up to you to support it with evidence.

Until you do, your contention fails to meet the criterion of falsifiability. Right now, you are engaged in the fallacy, beloved of pseudoscientists and conspiracy theorists, that you can shift the burden of proof to demand the disproving of an unverifiable (and thus unfalsifiable) claim.

 Caesar3594 wrote:

In this case its innocent until proven guilty. Or correct until proven false.

You are getting that the wrong way round. It is innocent until proven guilty, which means that it is false until it is proven correct. Innocence and falsity are negative claims (suspect did not do that, that is not the case) whereas guilt and correctness are positive claims (suspect did indeed do that, that is indeed the case). The burden of proof is always with the positive claim. Negative claims do not need to be proven, they simply can be disregarded as soon as the positive claim is proven.

This is no burden of proof were talking Warhammer background here not a philisophical debate.

Many seem to think those rules apply here, they do not

 Caesar3594 wrote:
This is no burden of proof were talking Warhammer background here not a philisophical debate.

Many seem to think those rules apply here, they do not

So now that it has been demonstrated comprehensively that you have failed to substantiate your hypothesis with reason and evidence, you suddenly embrace postmodernism. Classy.

In other news, I can today reveal that Enid Blyton's Noddy was secretly the Horned Rat all along.

 Lord Fishface wrote:

 Caesar3594 wrote:
This is no burden of proof were talking Warhammer background here not a philisophical debate.

Many seem to think those rules apply here, they do not

So now that it has been demonstrated comprehensively that you have failed to substantiate your hypothesis with reason and evidence, you suddenly embrace postmodernism. Classy.

In other news, I can today reveal that Enid Blyton's Noddy was secretly the Horned Rat all along.

OH YES HOW SILLY OF ME!
Of couse making statements that are backed wit logic is just the same as making stupid claims out of no where that makes no sense!!!

Allright Mr. "I can use big big philpsphy words" there no hypothesis here, I'm not guessing anything based of the most basic first assertion of data before experimenting more.

Also I think we all have a little bit of postmodernism considering were arguing about a universe 38thpusand years in the future.

 Caesar3594 wrote:
The Great Horned Rat is an anti chas god, just like the other 2 names he is called

How?