So is malice/the great horned rat now 40k canon?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Caesar3594**

ImAGeek wrote:
Caesar3594 wrote:
The Great Horned Rat is an anti chas god, just like the other 2 names he is called

How?

He is not affliated or allied with any of the 4 major gods and his worshippers/forces have been seen often fighting against forces of the more major gods

**pm713**

Caesar3594 wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
Caesar3594 wrote:
The Great Horned Rat is an anti chas god, just like the other 2 names he is called

How?

He is not affliated or allied with any of the 4 major gods and his worshippers/forces have been seen often fighting against forces of the more major gods

So what? Not allied with another Chaos God and often fighting the Chaos Gods can be said for Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch.

**The Grumpy Eldar**

Malal/Malice is never called The Great Horned Rat or vice versa. My view will only be changed by actual proof of this. The Great Horned Rat has never been mentioned in 40K.

It has never been said what the Great Horned Rat is as far as I know... And we do know that there are minor Chaos Gods around to. So in fact, it could be possible he was/is a minor Chaos God. At least in Fantasy.

The games once were connected but they went their own ways eventually, after it's creators decided that.

It would be most likely a Multiverse thing instead, if you still believe they are connected.. With the warp being somewhat connected/overlapping with itself, this is not confirmed as far as I know.

**Psienesis**

Backspacehacker wrote:
It's been shown a few time that both realms are linked via the warp, in one instance a group of elves go into nurgals garden and two about how they saw a massive human clad in silver armor fighting off endless waves of demons, IE draigo. Or the skaven who stole an artifact from the lizard men which when they used it they basically prank called the eldar on accident.

From my understanding the great horned rat = Malal = malice (due to copy right) = may or may not exist. But since we know the warp connects the two universes...

Eh eh? Malal/ malice now canon?? Eehhhhhh!

There is nothing proving that the silver-clad knight is Draigo. That's fanon speculation. There's also be significant distancing between the two game-settings over the last twenty years or so. Once upon a time, yes, they were connected (Fans also thought that the Old World might just have been a "bio preserve" trapped in a Warp Storm).

The Horned Rat and Malal are not the same god, either.

**Caesar3594**

Alright so I did some more reasearch and you guys are half right. The Great Horned Rat is different from Malal

but Malal and Malice are the same and Malice is now 40k canon.

Here is ze proof

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Malice
"led the Chapter to declare itself to be both enemies of the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos even as it took up service to the Renegade Chaos God Malal, also called Malice, the Hierarch of Anarchy and Terror."

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Malal
"Malice was created for 3rd edition Warhammer 40000 in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. An axe identical to Kaleb Daark's is described which was created to kill other beings of Chaos, and a Chaos Space Marine Chapter in Malal's colors was shown under the name "Sons of Malice"."

**MeatShield**

There was a rat god in Necromunda.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nope. My bad. That's the Caller and not the horned rat.

**Iron_Captain**

Caesar3594 wrote:
Alright so I did some more reasearch and you guys are half right. The Great Horned Rat is different from Malal

but Malal and Malice are the same and Malice is now 40k canon.

Here is ze proof

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Malice
"led the Chapter to declare itself to be both enemies of the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos even as it took up service to the Renegade Chaos God Malal, also called Malice, the Hierarch of Anarchy and Terror."

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Malal
"Malice was created for 3rd edition Warhammer 40000 in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. An axe identical to Kaleb Daark's is described which was created to kill other beings of Chaos, and a Chaos Space Marine Chapter in Malal's colors was shown under the name "Sons of Malice"."

Lexicanum and 1d4chan are fan-made wikis. They are not canon, they are not always correct in information and thus they are not proof of anything. Proof only comes from canon sources.
Malice and Malal are not the same because of copyright reasons. GW is no longer allowed to use Malal. Malice is 40k canon, Malal isn't.
Malice in 40k does share some similarities with Malal from WHFB, but there really aren't much details given on Malice, who only has appeared once in a BL book. He may not even be an actual god, given the fact that unlike the real gods, Malice could be summoned into the material realm similar to a daemon. This suggests that Malice is an independent warp spirit or daemon rather than a being akin to the Chaos Gods.

**Ketara**

It is conceivable that the Warhammer Old World was a planet set deep within where the Eye of Terror currently exists. If we assume the Old Ones built it, and the Eldar left it alone for some reason (say, because they were kept out by appropriate technological mechanisms designed by the Old Ones), then it would make sense that the first Great Chaos Incursion occurred with the Birth of Slaanesh. The great warp explosion would have proved sufficient to damage those mechanisms, releasing Chaos into the WFB World but not enough to flood it completely.

Fast Forward to the Old World pre-Age of Sigmar, that would mean that the WFB world is situated deep within the Eye of Terror, far beyond any Eldar or Imperium reach. But when the Old World finally imploded, it required the measures specified in Age of Sigmar to create these little pocket dimensions, which are now just little bubbles of reality floating around deep within the Eye.

This is pretty rough stuff I'm outlining, but it should demonstrate how the two conceivable could be part of the same Universe. I'm not asserting that they are, merely that a skilled piece of fiction from one of the GW writers could link the two. I shan't lie, I'd be stoked if Russ showed up in Age of Sigmar!

**Backspacehacker**

Ketara wrote:
It is conceivable that the Warhammer Old World was a planet set deep within where the Eye of Terror currently exists. If we assume the Old Ones built it, and the Eldar left it alone for some reason (say, because they were kept out by appropriate technological mechanisms designed by the Old Ones), then it would make sense that the first Great Chaos Incursion occurred with the Birth of Slaanesh. The great warp explosion would have proved sufficient to damage those mechanisms, releasing Chaos into the WFB World but not enough to flood it completely.

Fast Forward to the Old World pre-Age of Sigmar, that would mean that the WFB world is situated deep within the Eye of Terror, far beyond any Eldar or Imperium reach. But when the Old World finally imploded, it required the measures specified in Age of Sigmar to create these little pocket dimensions, which are now just little bubbles of reality floating around deep within the Eye.

This is pretty rough stuff I'm outlining, but it should demonstrate how the two conceivable could be part of the same Universe. I'm not asserting that they are, merely that a skilled piece of fiction from one of the GW writers could link the two. I shan't lie, I'd be stoked if Russ showed up in Age of Sigmar!

Wait are you suggesting that the End times 'explosion' of the universe was the Eye of terror being born? Because that would be kinda interesting.

**Ketara**

Backspacehacker wrote:
Ketara wrote:
It is conceivable that the Warhammer Old World was a planet set deep within where the Eye of Terror currently exists. If we assume the Old Ones built it, and the Eldar left it alone for some reason (say, because they were kept out by appropriate technological mechanisms designed by the Old Ones), then it would make sense that the first Great Chaos Incursion occurred with the Birth of Slaanesh. The great warp explosion would have proved sufficient to damage those mechanisms, releasing Chaos into the WFB World but not enough to flood it completely.

Fast Forward to the Old World pre-Age of Sigmar, that would mean that the WFB world is situated deep within the Eye of Terror, far beyond any Eldar or Imperium reach. But when the Old World finally imploded, it required the measures specified in Age of Sigmar to create these little pocket dimensions, which are now just little bubbles of reality floating around deep within the Eye.

This is pretty rough stuff I'm outlining, but it should demonstrate how the two conceivable could be part of the same Universe. I'm not asserting that they are, merely that a skilled piece of fiction from one of the GW writers could link the two. I shan't lie, I'd be stoked if Russ showed up in Age of Sigmar!

Wait are you suggesting that the End times 'explosion' of the universe was the Eye of terror being born? Because that would be kinda interesting.

Nope. I'm suggesting that the First Great Incursion, where Aenarion and co. threw back the daemon hordes would have been the birth of Slaanesh. It would conveniently explain why no Eldar or Imperial has managed to reach the WFB subsequently to that, yet the odd bit of wargear seemed to float through, as well as why the immediate surroundings of the WFB were nothing but a maelstrom of Chaos when the Old Ones' warp restraint devices finally failed later on during the End Times.

Note that I'm not saying this IS what happened, merely demonstrating that the two universes could be (re)linked with a minimum of writing effort on the part of GW, and that there is no necessary barrier to people believing them to still being linked.

**pm713**

Doesn't explain how you have Slaanesh around before End Times though. If the End Times was the birth of Slaanesh then Slaanesh couldn't have done anything beforehand.

**Ketara**

pm713 wrote:
Doesn't explain how you have Slaanesh around before End Times though. If the End Times was the birth of Slaanesh then Slaanesh couldn't have done anything beforehand.

The First Great Incursion and the End Times are separate events.

**pm713**

Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Doesn't explain how you have Slaanesh around before End Times though. If the End Times was the birth of Slaanesh then Slaanesh couldn't have done anything beforehand.

The First Great Incursion and the End Times are separate events.

But you said First Great Incursion = Slaanesh birth. That's the creation of the Eye of Terror...

**Ketara**

pm713 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Doesn't explain how you have Slaanesh around before End Times though. If the End Times was the birth of Slaanesh then Slaanesh couldn't have done anything beforehand.

The First Great Incursion and the End Times are separate events.

But you said First Great Incursion = Slaanesh birth. That's the creation of the Eye of Terror...

I did. The First Great Incursion happened thousands of years before the End Times, meaning the WFB world would have been floating in the Eye of Terror ever since then (and Slaanesh would have existed for the duration of the history of WFB and been present during the End Times).

**pm713**

Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Doesn't explain how you have Slaanesh around before End Times though. If the End Times was the birth of Slaanesh then Slaanesh couldn't have done anything beforehand.

The First Great Incursion and the End Times are separate events.

But you said First Great Incursion = Slaanesh birth. That's the creation of the Eye of Terror...

I did. The First Great Incursion happened thousands of years before the End Times, meaning the WFB world would have been floating in the Eye of Terror ever since then (and Slaanesh would have existed for the duration of the history of WFB and been present during the End Times).

Then that's wrong. The Birth of Slaanesh and the creation of the Eye of Terror are the same thing. You've added a completely new period.

**Ketara**

I'm aware of that. You're mixing things up. Here's a vague timeline to help understand:-

-Old Ones create Orks, Eldar, Humans, and everything else.
-For whatever reason (being inscrutable aliens) they choose to shove them all on a planet near the Eldar homeworlds along with barriers to entry, and see what happens.
-Old Ones fall, the Eldar still can't/choose not to access this world.
-The Birth of Slaanesh happens, the Eldar homeworlds are enveloped in what is known as the Eye of Terror. Meanwhile, the barriers the Old Ones left are strong enough to partially withstand the birth of Slaanesh. Aenarion and the rest throw back the Daemon hordes, Chaos is checked at the poles.
-Several thousand years of WFB history happens on this planet, which is now floating around in the middle of the Eye of Terror, with the Chaos Gods trying to break in using their various pawns.
-They finally succeed during the End Times, the WFB planet is suddenly enveloped by the maelstrom of Chaos known as the Eye of Terror.
-Various little bubble dimensions are then established as per the Age of Sigmar fluff.

**pm713**

Ketara wrote:
I'm aware of that. You're mixing things up. Here's a vague timeline to help understand:-

-Old Ones create Orks, Eldar, Humans, and everything else.
-For whatever reason (being inscrutable aliens) they choose to shove them all on a planet along with barriers to entry, and see what happens.
-Old Ones fall, the Eldar still can't/choose not to access this world.
-The Birth of Slaanesh happens, Eldar homeworld are enveloped in what is known as the Eye of Terror. Meanwhile, the barriers the Old Ones left are strong enough to partially withstand the birth of Slaanesh. Aenarion and the rest throw back the Daemon hordes, Chaos is checked at the poles.
-Several thousand years of WFB history happens on this planet, which is now floating around in the middle of the Eye of Terror, with the Chaos Gods trying to break in using their various pawns.
-They finally succeed during the End Times, the WFB planet is suddenly enveloped by the maelstrom of Chaos known as the Eye of Terror.
-Various little bubble dimensions are then established as per the Age of Sigmar fluff.

Oh I see. You didn't invent several thousand years then. Just a very questionable world that somehow went unnoticed in the centre of the Eldar Empire for who knows how long. What stops the bubble dimensions being invaded by Chaos Marines?

**Ketara**

pm713 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
I'm aware of that. You're mixing things up. Here's a vague timeline to help understand:-

-Old Ones create Orks, Eldar, Humans, and everything else.
-For whatever reason (being inscrutable aliens) they choose to shove them all on a planet along with barriers to entry, and see what happens.
-Old Ones fall, the Eldar still can't/choose not to access this world.
-The Birth of Slaanesh happens, Eldar homeworld are enveloped in what is known as the Eye of Terror. Meanwhile, the barriers the Old Ones left are strong enough to partially withstand the birth of Slaanesh. Aenarion and the rest throw back the Daemon hordes, Chaos is checked at the poles.
-Several thousand years of WFB history happens on this planet, which is now floating around in the middle of the Eye of Terror, with the Chaos Gods trying to break in using their various pawns.
-They finally succeed during the End Times, the WFB planet is suddenly enveloped by the maelstrom of Chaos known as the Eye of Terror.
-Various little bubble dimensions are then established as per the Age of Sigmar fluff.

Oh I see. You didn't invent several thousand years then. Just a very questionable world that somehow went unnoticed in the centre of the Eldar Empire for who knows how long. What stops the bubble dimensions being invaded by Chaos Marines?

One could assume that the barriers/mechanisms invented by the Old Ones that prevented the Eldar from intruding after the Old Ones vanished, and stopped Chaos from seeping in would also prevent them from bringing in any external forces.

I repeat, I'm not asserting this is the case. Just that with a modicum of effort and imagination, the two worlds can be relinked. Whether or not GW will ever choose to do so? Who knows.

**pm713**

Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
I'm aware of that. You're mixing things up. Here's a vague timeline to help understand:-

-Old Ones create Orks, Eldar, Humans, and everything else.
-For whatever reason (being inscrutable aliens) they choose to shove them all on a planet along with barriers to entry, and see what happens.
-Old Ones fall, the Eldar still can't/choose not to access this world.
-The Birth of Slaanesh happens, Eldar homeworld are enveloped in what is known as the Eye of Terror. Meanwhile, the barriers the Old Ones left are strong enough to partially withstand the birth of Slaanesh. Aenarion and the rest throw back the Daemon hordes, Chaos is checked at the poles.
-Several thousand years of WFB history happens on this planet, which is now floating around in the middle of the Eye of Terror, with the Chaos Gods trying to break in using their various pawns.
-They finally succeed during the End Times, the WFB planet is suddenly enveloped by the maelstrom of Chaos known as the Eye of Terror.
-Various little bubble dimensions are then established as per the Age of Sigmar fluff.

Oh I see. You didn't invent several thousand years then. Just a very questionable world that somehow went unnoticed in the centre of the Eldar Empire for who knows how long. What stops the bubble dimensions being invaded by Chaos Marines?

One could assume that the barriers/mechanisms invented by the Old Ones that prevented the Eldar from intruding after the Old Ones vanished, and stopped Chaos from seeping in would also prevent them from bringing in any external forces.

I repeat, I'm not asserting this is the case. Just that with a modicum of effort and imagination, the two worlds can be relinked.

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

**Caesar3594**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Caesar3594 wrote:
Alright so I did some more reasearch and you guys are half right. The Great Horned Rat is different from Malal

but Malal and Malice are the same and Malice is now 40k canon.

Here is ze proof

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Malice
"led the Chapter to declare itself to be both enemies of the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos even as it took up service to the Renegade Chaos God Malal, also called Malice, the Hierarch of Anarchy and Terror."

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Malal
"Malice was created for 3rd edition Warhammer 40000 in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. An axe identical to Kaleb Daark's is described which was created to kill other beings of Chaos, and a Chaos Space Marine Chapter in Malal's colors was shown under the name "Sons of Malice"."

Lexicanum and 1d4chan are fan-made wikis. They are not canon, they are not always correct in information and thus they are not proof of anything. Proof only comes from canon sources.
Malice and Malal are not the same because of copyright reasons. GW is no longer allowed to use Malal. Malice is 40k canon, Malal isn't.
Malice in 40k does share some similarities with Malal from WHFB, but there really aren't much details given on Malice, who only has appeared once in a BL book. He may not even be an actual god, given the fact that unlike the real gods, Malice could be summoned into the material realm similar to a daemon. This suggests that Malice is an independent warp spirit or daemon rather than a being akin to the Chaos Gods.

Man you can't just discredit my links without even clicking on them. They pages themselves have citations to other sources were they got the information at the bottom of each page.

Also yes you are right in him being able to manifest himself in the material world after 11 son of malice battle-brothers sacrificed themselves to do so, so he's probably just a unalinged Greator daemon of some sort ((even though those aren't supposed to exist))

However despite copyright bulls hit Mall and Malice are the same. THEY SHARE THE SAME HALF BLACK HALF WHITE SKULL SYMBOL FOR GODS SAKE. They are definitely the same, just like green stuff and simple green are the same thing but have different names now because of copytights

**Ketara**

pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

**pm713**

Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

There's unrealistic and there's flat out bad. The first is fine the second is not.

**Ketara**

pm713 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

There's unrealistic and there's flat out bad. The first is fine the second is not.

Let me tell you about the Necron machine which can single-handedly destroy entire solar systems at the touch of a button....

Seriously mate, there are so many more vastly implausible things in the Warhammer Universe that the above timeline could be made canon tomorrow and it wouldn't look particularly bad. The concept of some Old One barrier preserving the WFB world is really quite tame, and could easily be made a cracking read if handled properly. You can come up with a dozen reasons why Chaos didn't bring traitor marines to the WFB world, ranging from the aforementioned barriers, to them literally just choosing not to (Gods are fickle). The fluff elements are all in place. If you really find something of that level 'unrealistic', then warhammer fluff will be a constant disappointment to you, and you should go back to hard sci-fi.

**Lord Fishface**

Caesar3594 wrote:
OH YES HOW SILLY OF ME!

Well I'm glad you've grasped that at least.

Caesar3594 wrote:
Allright Mr. "I can use big big philpsphy words" there no hypothesis here, I'm not guessing anything based of the most basic first assertion of data before experimenting more.

Also I think we all have a little bit of postmodernism considering were arguing about a universe 38thpusand years in the future.

Since I, at least, understand the concepts expressed by such terms - concepts like how the burden of proof works, for instance - it takes me no more effort to be right than it does for you to be wrong. Moreover, we're actually arguing over a handful of stories and sourcebooks published by GW over the last few decades. Now this might well be be a pointless activity, but how is my bothering to read them more pointless than rehashing spurious fanwank as you have been doing?

Malal has never been part of 40k continuity. He had disappeeared from WFB/WFRP as a result of the dispute over his ownership between GW and Mills/Wagner before Rogue Trader was even published. Now it would be perfectly reasonable to infer that Malice was intended by GW's writers to slyly reference this vanished figure from the early days, but that is not the same as 'Malal is Malice in different languages'.

And no, there is no absolutely no viable reason to presuppose either one to be another name for the Horned Rat.

**Caesar3594**

Bro, you are liked 3 posts of mine behind.

I have admitted that op and you were wrong about malice and the great honed rat being the same, but have proven that malice and Malal indeed are the same and malice exists in the 40k universe canonically. The Sons of Malice themselves are living(in the 40k sense) proof.

**pm713**

Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

There's unrealistic and there's flat out bad. The first is fine the second is not.

Let me tell you about the Necron machine which can single-handedly destroy entire solar systems at the touch of a button....

Seriously mate, there are so many more vastly implausible things in the Warhammer Universe that the above timeline could be made canon tomorrow and it wouldn't look particularly bad. The concept of some Old One barrier preserving the WFB world is really quite tame, and could easily be made a cracking read if handled properly. You can come up with a dozen reasons why Chaos didn't bring traitor marines to the WFB world, ranging from the aforementioned barriers, to them literally just choosing not to (Gods are fickle). The fluff elements are all in place. If you really find something of that level 'unrealistic', then warhammer fluff will be a constant disappointment to you, and you should go back to hard sci-fi.

Literally everything you bring up is terrible.

Like I said. Unrealistic is fine. Bad writing is not.

**Ketara**

pm713 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

There's unrealistic and there's flat out bad. The first is fine the second is not.

Let me tell you about the Necron machine which can single-handedly destroy entire solar systems at the touch of a button....

Seriously mate, there are so many more vastly implausible things in the Warhammer Universe that the above timeline could be made canon tomorrow and it wouldn't look particularly bad. The concept of some Old One barrier preserving the WFB world is really quite tame, and could easily be made a cracking read if handled properly. You can come up with a dozen reasons why Chaos didn't bring traitor marines to the WFB world, ranging from the aforementioned barriers, to them literally just choosing not to (Gods are fickle). The fluff elements are all in place. If you really find something of that level 'unrealistic', then warhammer fluff will be a constant disappointment to you, and you should go back to hard sci-fi.

Literally everything you bring up is terrible.

Like I said. Unrealistic is fine. Bad writing is not.

Terrible from what perspective? Why is it terrible? I'm an avid sci-fi reader, both hard and soft. I've been immersed in 40K lore for over a decade. I can't say I find anything unreasonable with the concept. It could be pulled off badly, but it could be pulled off well also. I'm really not sure how you can call a rough conceptual outline on how WFB could exist within the Eye 'bad writing', considering there isn't much...well, writing!

If there was some massive clash within the fluff, I'd be more understanding, but from what I can see, there's a dozen odd ways it could be executed in line with established canon, some awful, some entertaining, and some perfectly good. For example, regarding your (only) raised issue regarding Traitor Marines not showing up; you could go to Draigo levels of stupidity and have Leman Russ singlehandedly fighting all the Traitor Legions before they can enter the region of the eye where WFB is located, to a far more interesting idea of the WFB Gods themselves interfering with travel to the region in the Eye as warp entities themselves, to the perfectly logical concept of Old One tech having held them off until this point. The possibilities are literally endless, and whilst some are good and some are bad, decrying writing that hasn't been written as 'unrealistic' strikes me as absurd.

The point made, is that if GW wants to link the two, it could do so tomorrow with reasonable success and no substantial fluff overhauls required. Ultimately, that's all I was trying to demonstrate.

**pm713**

Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Effort, imagination and a LOT of unlikely things.

Hi, welcome to Warhammer. You must be new here. Let me tell you about the time a space marine tank surfed into battle, a bloke called Draigo carved his name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, and the Blood Angels and Necrons became best mates to fight off some Tyranids...

There's unrealistic and there's flat out bad. The first is fine the second is not.

Let me tell you about the Necron machine which can single-handedly destroy entire solar systems at the touch of a button....

Seriously mate, there are so many more vastly implausible things in the Warhammer Universe that the above timeline could be made canon tomorrow and it wouldn't look particularly bad. The concept of some Old One barrier preserving the WFB world is really quite tame, and could easily be made a cracking read if handled properly. You can come up with a dozen reasons why Chaos didn't bring traitor marines to the WFB world, ranging from the aforementioned barriers, to them literally just choosing not to (Gods are fickle). The fluff elements are all in place. If you really find something of that level 'unrealistic', then warhammer fluff will be a constant disappointment to you, and you should go back to hard sci-fi.

Literally everything you bring up is terrible.

Like I said. Unrealistic is fine. Bad writing is not.

Terrible from what perspective? Why is it terrible? I'm an avid sci-fi reader, both hard and soft. I've been immersed in 40K lore for over a decade. I can't say I find anything unreasonable with the concept. It could be pulled off badly, but it could be pulled off well also. I'm really not sure how you can call a rough conceptual outline on how WFB could exist within the Eye 'bad writing', considering there isn't much...well, writing!

If there was some massive clash within the fluff, I'd be more understanding, but from what I can see, there's a dozen odd ways it could be executed in line with established canon, some awful, some entertaining, and some perfectly good. For example, regarding your (only) raised issue regarding Traitor Marines not showing up; you could go to Draigo levels of stupidity and have Leman Russ singlehandedly fighting all the Traitor Legions before they can enter the region of the eye where WFB is located, to a far more interesting idea of the WFB Gods themselves interfering with travel to the region in the Eye as warp entities themselves, to the perfectly logical concept of Old One tech having held them off until this point. The possibilities are literally endless, and whilst some are good and some are bad, decrying writing that hasn't been written as 'unrealistic' strikes me as absurd.

The point made, is that if GW wants to link the two, it could do so tomorrow with reasonable success and no substantial fluff overhauls required. Ultimately, that's all I was trying to demonstrate.

It doesn't seem dumb that an entire planet was hidden at the centre of one of the most powerful empires ever, then it conveniently survived a gigantic psychic explosion because of some mechanism, then it breaks to allow the Warp in but doesn't break enough to let outsiders in and it makes incredibly large bubble worlds that conveniently nobody can find or enter. The only alternative you've provided is that there are these gods who somehow haven't been killed by Chaos or something despite being a huge obstacle to them.

**Ketara**

pm713 wrote:

It doesn't seem dumb that an entire planet

A planet made by a race that's widely understood within the 40K fluff to have essentially been the most powerful, with control over the warp and lifeforms to the extent that they managed to bio-engineer the Eldar into existence and create the Webway.

was hidden at the centre of one of the most powerful empires ever,

It could be hidden. It could have been that the Eldar simply refrained from touching it because it was an experiment of the Old Ones to see how races mixed on a primitive level, or because they saw the Lizardmen as the true inhabitors of the planet and spared it out of respect to the Old Ones. Or many other potential scenarios. Plenty of options to go with. The Eldar have strange priorities at the best of times.

then it conveniently survived a gigantic psychic explosion because of some mechanism,

We've seen warp inhibitors in the form of the Necron Pylons on Cadia, and the Untouchables. It's perfectly within the fluff to imagine a planet spanning network engineered by the Old Ones which could achieve a similar effect.

then it breaks to allow the Warp in

Yup. Birth of Slaanesh was pretty cataclysmic. Untouchable fields have been shown to be overwhelmable with sufficient warp power, and that was one of the biggest warp bangs. Makes sense even the toughest anti-warp effect could be partially cancelled out or damaged.

but doesn't break enough to let outsiders in

Again, as I pointed out, you could pull out a dozen reasons for that, some good, some bad. That's the meaning of 'rough conceptual outline'. If you're decrying those specific examples, you're missing the point, namely that the rough outline could be filled in in such a way as to be compatible with existing fluff.

and it makes incredibly large bubble worlds that conveniently nobody can find or enter.

That would take us into Age of Sigmar, and I'm sure something could be thrown together to justify it. The Gods would be the logical starting place but there are other options.

If you really find this all so hard to digest as a bunch of unlikely circumstances, you should go and read the Ciaphas Cain books. Those have unlikely circumstances occurring every other chapter!

**pm713**

Ketara wrote:
pm713 wrote:

It doesn't seem dumb that an entire planet

A planet made by a race that's widely understood within the 40K fluff to have essentially been the most powerful, with control over the warp and lifeforms to the extent that they managed to bio-engineer the Eldar into existence and create the Webway.

was hidden at the centre of one of the most powerful empires ever,

It could be hidden. It could have been that the Eldar simply refrained from touching it because it was an experiment of the Old Ones to see how races mixed on a primitive level, or because they saw the Lizardmen as the true inhabitors of the planet and spared it out of respect to the Old Ones. Or many other potential scenarios. Plenty of options to go with. The Eldar have strange priorities at the best of times.

then it conveniently survived a gigantic psychic explosion because of some mechanism,

We've seen warp inhibitors in the form of the Necron Pylons on Cadia, and the Untouchables. It's perfectly within the fluff to imagine a planet spanning network engineered by the Old Ones which could achieve a similar effect.

then it breaks to allow the Warp in

Yup. Birth of Slaanesh was pretty cataclysmic. Untouchable fields have been shown to be overwhelmable with sufficient warp power, and that was one of the biggest warp bangs. Makes sense even the toughest anti-warp effect could be partially cancelled out or damaged.

but doesn't break enough to let outsiders in

Again, as I pointed out, you could pull out a dozen reasons for that, some good, some bad. That's the meaning of 'rough conceptual outline'. If you're decrying those specific examples, you're missing the point, namely that the rough outline could be filled in in such a way as to be compatible with existing fluff.

and it makes incredibly large bubble worlds that conveniently nobody can find or enter.

Have you read the dakka posting rules yet? If not, click to open them in a new window.

That would take us into Age of Sigmar, and I'm sure something could be thrown together to justify it. The Gods would be the logical starting place but there are other options.

If you really find this all so hard to digest as a bunch of unlikely circumstances, you should go and read the Ciaphas Cain books. Those have unlikely circumstances occurring every other chapter!

1. There's power and there's ridiculous.
2. You're right in a society that eventually began to ignore their own gods and have respect for nothing there was that one planet they completely respected because it had primitive lizard people on it.
3. So for some reason the Old Ones made technology that mainly hurts them. Okay.
4. So it gets overwhelmed but not at the start where it's worse but a long time after when it is much better?
5.Right. It breaks enough to let in the Warp and Daemons but not Chaos who travel through the Warp.
6. Or you could not "throw something together" and have two seperate but coherent and decent universes.