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So with the great solid writing of age of sigmar, pretty boy slannesh got his/her butt kicked and de throned by the great horned rat. As a result the great horned rat took her/his place as a chaos God.

Since it has been proven and is accepted both fantasy and 40k are linked via the warp, does this now mean, technically, slannesh is also out of power in 40k as well and that the great horned rat is a God In 40k as well? Or is now canon malice?

Would at least be a good way to progress eldar lore.

Is it proven that they are the same universe?

Aside from the gods and daemons themselves being the same, there's no other reason to think that the Great Horned Rat is 40k canon now. AFAIK, the Great Horned Rat doesn't even exist in 40k canon.

It's been shown a few time that both realms are linked via the warp, in one instance a group of elves go into nurgals garden and two about how they saw a massive human clad in silver armor fighting off endless waves of demons, IE draigo. Or the skaven who stole an artifact from the lizard men which when they used it they basically prank called the eldar on accident.

From my understanding the great horned rat = Malal = malice (due to copy right) = may or may not exist. But since we know the warp connects the two universes...

Eh eh? Malal/ malice now canon?? Eehhhhhh!

How does Horned rat = Malal? One is a chaos god of rat people one is the self destructive nature of chaos.

They aren't linked. 40k still has Slaanesh therefore Slaanesh isn't gone therefore they either aren't linked or GW retconned that stupid rubbish.

The only know artwork of Malal depicts hm as a horned rat.

It would still be better then some of their writing

I'm not sure I get "rat" from this any more than I get "1980s high fantasy daemon".

And removing Slaanesh from 40K would muck up Emperor's Children, Fulgrim, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Emperor knows what else. So I'm gonna say no.

Whats the actual writing of the Eldar and Human in silver armour stuff anyway?

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I'm not sure I get "rat" from this any more than I get "1980s high fantasy daemon".

And removing Slaanesh from 40K would muck up Emperor's Children, Fulgrim, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Emperor knows what else. So I'm gonna say no.

Why would it muck them? They would become searchers of their god. Well except eldars who(both kind) would let out huge sigh of relief.

pm713 wrote:
Whats the actual writing of the Eldar and Human in silver armour stuff anyway?

Let me see if I can hunt down the book for where they see the draigo

tneva82 wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I'm not sure I get "rat" from this any more than I get "1980s high fantasy daemon".

And removing Slaanesh from 40K would muck up Emperor's Children, Fulgrim, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Emperor knows what else. So I'm gonna say no.

Why would it muck them? They would become searchers of their god. Well except eldars who(both kind) would let out huge sigh of relief.

It would completely remove the basic horror of Dark Eldar and take out what at least two Eldar groups are working towards. Because weaker, younger and dumber elves with less experience of Slaanesh did something that doesn't make sense.

pm713 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I'm not sure I get "rat" from this any more than I get "1980s high fantasy daemon".

And removing Slaanesh from 40K would muck up Emperor's Children, Fulgrim, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Emperor knows what else. So I'm gonna say no.

Why would it muck them? They would become searchers of their god. Well except eldars who(both kind) would let out huge sigh of relief.

It would completely remove the basic horror of Dark Eldar and take out what at least two Eldar groups are working towards. Because weaker, younger and dumber elves with less experience of Slaanesh did something that doesn't make sense.

Half of GW's writing does not make any sense I mean, again they green lit Matt ward so.

Here is the link, YES I know it's a 1d4chan but they do a good job and explaining it with a bit of humor to add.

Last entry, talked about how they find a knight who very strikingly sounds like draigo, implying both realms are linked via the warp.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo

Could also be a Stormcast or anything from the infinite realms of AOS.

pm713 wrote:
Could also be a Stormcast or anything from the infinite realms of AOS.

Hypothetically this is true, but is was said he was clad in silver armor, made a name for himself and shot blue explosions out of him.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Could also be a Stormcast or anything from the infinite realms of AOS.

Hypothetically this is true, but is was said he was clad in silver armor, made a name for himself and shot blue explosions out of him.

The first two of those can be literally any Stormcast in silver paint.

This is why authors should never do tongue in cheek nods to other franchises, because some people will instantly 1. Assume it as hard proof of a link between two franchises 2. Demand more crossover which inevitably is terrible (See Alien V Predator).

It's not proof of anything. It's one GW writer having a little bit of fun. It's the same thing in 40k with the lost Primarchs. Every mention of them, no matter how unreliable the narrator is (Chaos Daemons, Word Bearers) is taken by some as a definitive answer to what happened to them, no matter how many times BL editors and authors say that there is no definitive truth.

Why would anyone even want crossover? Can you imagine how ham fisted that would be story wise?

Plus the rumours were that the old world was in the 40k universe somewhere. The old world was destroyed aeons before Age of Sigmar. Plus the world in AOS isn't written like real planets, Sci Fi style, but literal different dimensions. It makes zero sense to combine the two. How could it possibly benefit anyone to find out that two franchises take place in the same universe?

The silver knight in Nurgles garden could be anything, Stormcast (yes there's silver ones, and they like lightning too which explains the blue), Draigo, a tongue in cheek reference to the Grey Knights without meaning anything more... I don't really call it proof.

I'm not sure if it is still "cannon" since AoS took over, but the Lizardmen books, Necron & Eldar codexes all mention the Old Ones. In the last Fantasy cannon, the Old Ones came to the warhammer world on space vessels, created the Lizardmen, Elves, Dwarves & Men and accidentally brought Orcs to the world because spores were on their space craft. This would co-incide nicely with the Old-Ones disappearance from the 40K universe after the War in Heaven.

I have always held that 40K and the Fantasy realm exist in the same universe, separated by the Warp. AoS has made my belief in that even stronger.
With Fantasy sales plummeting and AoS not doing as well as they hoped, I could easily see GW taking steps to "merge" their 2 games to mimic the success of Privateer Press's WarmaHordes

--

IIRC several people have stated that GW has confirmed that that is not true and in addition it makes no sense. First there's nothing like a group of infinite dimensions people live in and move between in 40k. Second if they were the same universe then things like Sylvaneth would not exist as they'd have been killed by Chaos fleets.

Having two groups of Old Ones is hardly firm proof. Referring to an ancient, mysterious race as the "Old Ones" strikes me as fairly common.

No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

Oh of course there is sarcasm lol, AoS is gak/lazy writing into.

I'm not saying they are the same universe at all, that idea is dumb imo.

I'm saying the warp is the same warp, they messed up the age of sigmar universe for sure, but there are still boundless demensions to be had.

pm713 wrote:
Could also be a Stormcast or anything from the infinite realms of AOS.

It wasn't Draigo, it was a stormcast. He turns up in one of the AoS novels, but I don't recall which. Slaanesh isn't gone from AoS, I would expect a dramatic return at some point.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

Oh of course there is sarcasm lol, AoS is gak/lazy writing into.

I'm not saying they are the same universe at all, that idea is dumb imo.

I'm saying the warp is the same warp, they messed up the age of sigmar universe for sure, but there are still boundless demensions to be had.

Even the Warp being the same is doubtful though. Slaanesh only comes into existance very late in 40k history (after the Fall of the Eldar), while in Fantasy Slaanesh had always existed and was as ancient as the other gods. Combine that with Slaanesh dissapearing in Fantasy/AoS but not in 40k and with the Horned Rat not existing in 40k, I don't think there is a lot of evidence to suggest they are the same (from a narrative point of view ofc. Conceptually it is just the same thing directly ported over from Fantasy into 40k)

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

Oh of course there is sarcasm lol, AoS is gak/lazy writing into.

I'm not saying they are the same universe at all, that idea is dumb imo.

I'm saying the warp is the same warp, they messed up the age of sigmar universe for sure, but there are still boundless demensions to be had.

Even the Warp being the same is doubtful though. Slaanesh only comes into existance very late in 40k history (after the Fall of the Eldar), while in Fantasy Slaanesh had always existed and was as ancient as the other gods. Combine that with Slaanesh dissapearing in Fantasy/AoS but not in 40k and with the Horned Rat not existing in 40k, I don't think there is a lot of evidence to suggest they are the same (from a narrative point of view ofc. Conceptually it is just the same thing directly ported over from Fantasy into 40k)

In fairness the 40k Slaanesh has both never and always existed because time is weird in the Warp.

pm713 wrote:
IIRC several people have stated that GW has confirmed that that is not true and in addition it makes no sense. First there's nothing like a group of infinite dimensions people live in and move between in 40k.

Clearly you have never read any of the Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequin novels or codexes, because that pretty much is what the WebWay is: a dimesion that connects the Warp and the physical universe, as well as countless other dimesions. The Necron codex even states that Cryptek have knowledge of other universes beyond the main 2.

The Fantasy Realms can easily be shielded from the rest of the 40k Universe. The Old Ones probably pick that area of space and built Warp gates specifically for that reason. So while most 40K factions could easily exterminate most of the Fantasy factions, they'd have to find them first.

And a note about "timeline", no one can compare the 2 because there is not single point of reference. Everyone assumes that 40K events happen far in the future of the Fantasy events, but that does not have to be true at all. Fantasy has only a few thousand years of history, so it is conceivable that in order to coincide with the events of 40k that: A) Fantasy history is newer or B) like the Warp, time is irrelevant between dimensions or C) Both.

I am not saying that 100% they exist simultaneously, I am trying to make the point that there is just as much evidence to say that they do as there is evidence to say that they do not. This is deliberate on GW's part, both for the sake of the players' imagination (#don't squash my dreams) and to give them marketing options in the future.

--

 Galef wrote:

pm713 wrote:
IIRC several people have stated that GW has confirmed that that is not true and in addition it makes no sense. First there's nothing like a group of infinite dimensions people live in and move between in 40k.

Clearly you have never read any of the Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequin novels or codexes, because that pretty much is what the WebWay is: a dimesion that connects the Warp and the physical universe, as well as countless other dimesions. The Necron codex even states that Cryptek have knowledge of other universes beyond the main 2.

The Fantasy Realms can easily be shielded from the rest of the 40k Universe. The Old Ones probably pick that area of space and built Warp gates specifically for that reason. So while most 40K factions could easily exterminate most of the Fantasy factions, they'd have to find them first.

And a note about "timeline", no one can compare the 2 because there is not single point of reference. Everyone assumes that 40K events happen far in the future of the Fantasy events, but that does not have to be true at all. Fantasy has only a few thousand years of history, so it is conceivable that in order to coincide with the events of 40k that: A) Fantasy history is newer or B) like the Warp, time is irrelevant between dimensions or C) Both.

I am not saying that 100% they exist simultaneously, I am trying to make the point that there is just as much evidence to say that they do as there is evidence to say that they do not. This is deliberate on GW's part, both for the sake of the players' imagination (#don't squash my dreams) and to give them marketing options in the future.

--

I've read the Eldar codex, Path of the Eldar and Paths of the Dark Eldar. The Webway is much closer to tunnels of reality through the Warp and I saw no mention or even a hint of other dimensions. They're like veins but carrying reality not blood. Okay there are other universes. Still doesn't link Fantasy and 40k any more than it makes 40k real.

That doesn't explain how the Fantasy universe can explode without damaging 40k or how the various realms of AOS can be infinite. There really isn't that much evidence for them being linked unless you start grasping at straws..

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

Oh of course there is sarcasm lol, AoS is gak/lazy writing into.

I'm not saying they are the same universe at all, that idea is dumb imo.

I'm saying the warp is the same warp, they messed up the age of sigmar universe for sure, but there are still boundless demensions to be had.

Even the Warp being the same is doubtful though. Slaanesh only comes into existance very late in 40k history (after the Fall of the Eldar), while in Fantasy Slaanesh had always existed and was as ancient as the other gods. Combine that with Slaanesh dissapearing in Fantasy/AoS but not in 40k and with the Horned Rat not existing in 40k, I don't think there is a lot of evidence to suggest they are the same (from a narrative point of view ofc. Conceptually it is just the same thing directly ported over from Fantasy into 40k)

In fairness the 40k Slaanesh has both never and always existed because time is weird in the Warp.

^ This. Slaanesh still existed before The Fall, thanks to timey wimey shenanigans.

There was some other stuff that indicated a connection between the two. In the one fantasy campaign on the island of Albion, the winning armies won "magic items" that were clearly based on 40k equipment. Of course, that can be dismissed as a tongue-in-cheek reference rather than WFB WUZ DAEMON WORLD, SIGMAR LOST PRIMARCH CONFIRMED.

Anyway, GW needs to leave Slaanesh alone, particularly in 40k, where some very important fluff for various factions and the history of the whole universe hinges on Slaanesh.

GW hasn't done much with Slaanesh for awhile have they? I think they might be trying to slip them into the background for now. If they did that, it would kind of ruin the eldar, but you don't really need Slaanesh to be a big 4 for the eldar to work. Slaanesh just needs to exist and that might simply be as an eldar god.

Either that, or as the the end times near, and the power of the other three increases, Slaanesh as the god of excess emerges as the most powerful?

 fallinq wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No.
And no, they are not the same universe. 40k and Fantasy had many irreconcilable differences. This is not only evident as soon as one knows a bit about Fantasy or compares both timelines, but it also has been explained to death already, and GW has explicitly severed the link all the way back in 3rd edition. Why do people keep bringing it up?
Hell, since the End Times was released the 40k universe disproves a link with the Fantasy universy by its very continued existance. In the End Times, the entire universe was destroyed and consumed by Chaos. Not just the planet WHFB took place on, reality itself was shattered.That means that if they were in the same universe, the entire 40k universe must have been destroyed also. Since that is not the case, we can effectively conclude that they are not linked.
Also, AoS is "great solid writing"? That is sarcasm I hope?

Oh of course there is sarcasm lol, AoS is gak/lazy writing into.

I'm not saying they are the same universe at all, that idea is dumb imo.

I'm saying the warp is the same warp, they messed up the age of sigmar universe for sure, but there are still boundless demensions to be had.

Even the Warp being the same is doubtful though. Slaanesh only comes into existance very late in 40k history (after the Fall of the Eldar), while in Fantasy Slaanesh had always existed and was as ancient as the other gods. Combine that with Slaanesh dissapearing in Fantasy/AoS but not in 40k and with the Horned Rat not existing in 40k, I don't think there is a lot of evidence to suggest they are the same (from a narrative point of view ofc. Conceptually it is just the same thing directly ported over from Fantasy into 40k)

In fairness the 40k Slaanesh has both never and always existed because time is weird in the Warp.

^ This. Slaanesh still existed before The Fall, thanks to timey wimey shenanigans.

It didn't.
At least not in the physical universe before the Fall. Now the Warp is a weird place, and as time works differently there Slaanesh has indeed always existed in that dimension, but that is the reality of Warp creatures, not the reality of the physical universe. Slaanesh did not exist in any form capable of interacting with or manipulating the physical realm in any way. In the physical realm we can draw a clear line between before and after Slaanesh came to exist.

nomotog wrote:
GW hasn't done much with Slaanesh for awhile have they? I think they might be trying to slip them into the background for now. If they did that, it would kind of ruin the eldar, but you don't really need Slaanesh to be a big 4 for the eldar to work. Slaanesh just needs to exist and that might simply be as an eldar god.

They haven't done much with anything that isn't Khorne or to an extent Nurgle. There's rumours of some Tzeench love soon so maybe they'll do Slaanesh too. In AoS I think they're waiting to do something big with the story involving Slaanesh (there's still rules for Slaanesh stuff and considering they didn't do rules for Brettonia and Tomb Kings they'd have got rid of Slaanesh if they were planning to. Plus Slaanesh's symbol is on the new big Archaon models shield still).