Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Didn't read whole tread. Am not lore-master.

Just because something existed in the warp doesn't mean it existed in the form known as that god. It may have been an unconcentrated essence, but that is not what you call slannesh.

Why was that potential power not consumed? Why would something like that wait, confronted with hostility at its birth simply out of loathing. That loathing existed and didn't exist as well. It's a little silly.

"Malal/Malice/The Great Horned Rat are all them same entity under different names being worshiped by different races"

I can somewhat agree, slannesh is concept ,given form by the power races give to it. The concept remains the same, though with exceptions and differences provided by the hosts. But given what I know, its 2-forms that are not identical.

And to say Chaos would have to locate the races is silly. Chaos feeds off them already.

I'm just curious and probably wrong.

The 2 are not in the same universe. Why do people want that? What is the benefit? Planescape warhammer edition? Even Planescape knew when to quit.

pm713 wrote:

1. There's power and there's ridiculous.

I repeat. Welcome to Warhammer. The backflipping Terminators are on your right, the lasguns which somehow penetrate SM armour are on the left, and if you walk through the open door, you'll see Calgar punching an Avatar in the face and KOing it. Please leave a donation on your way out.

You're right in a society that eventually began to ignore their own gods and have respect for nothing there was that one planet they completely respected because it had primitive lizard people on it.

Waitaminute. You're claiming the idea of the Eldar venerating their creators is dumb? I hate to break it to you, but there's a lot of Eldar myths which would prove you otherwise.

Not to mention that trying to secondguess Eldar motivations and say what they wouldn't do is actually five times dumber fluff wise than anything said yet.

3. So for some reason the Old Ones made technology that mainly hurts them. Okay.

You know, nukes can hurt the USA as well. Why on earth would they do research into them or manufacture them? It couldn't be in case their enemies can use/will use it against them, or to develop countermeasures, or the hope for tehcnological spin-off into alternative civilian fields, or various other reasons.

Seriously?

4. So it gets overwhelmed but not at the start where it's worse but a long time after when it is much better?

The fact that the devices of the Old Ones were keeping Chaos out is already canon. You do realise that they only break completely eventually when things go wrong within?

I can fire a fairly heavy round at a tank from the outside and dent it, or I can do the same from the inside and effectively render it useless. That's a fairly common problem with technology, stuff stops working when it gets nailed with stuff it wasn't designed for. In this case, it was overloaded slightly by Slaanesh, but it took the slow wearing away within the internal WFB world to finally break it for good. Again, pretty common real world concepts. For someone concerned about reality in fiction, you seem to have difficulty picturing appropriate parallels.

Or you could not "throw something together" and have two seperate but coherent and decent universes.

Sure. But that wasn't the point of the thought exercise now, was it?

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

1. There's power and there's ridiculous.

I repeat. Welcome to Warhammer. The backflipping Terminators are on your right, the lasguns which somehow penetrate SM armour are on the left, and if you walk through the open door, you'll see Calgar punching an Avatar in the face and KOing it. Please leave a donation on your way out.

You're right in a society that eventually began to ignore their own gods and have respect for nothing there was that one planet they completely respected because it had primitive lizard people on it.

Waitaminute. You're claiming the idea of the Eldar venerating their creators is dumb? I hate to break it to you, but there's a lot of Eldar myths which would prove you otherwise.

Not to mention that trying to secondguess Eldar motivations and say what they wouldn't do is actually five times dumber fluff wise than anything said yet.

3. So for some reason the Old Ones made technology that mainly hurts them. Okay.

You know, nukes can hurt the USA as well. Why on earth would they do research into them or manufacture? It couldn't be in case their enemies can use/will use it against them, or to develop countermeasures, or the hope for tehcnological spin-off into alternative civilian fields, or various other reasons.

Seriously?

4. So it gets overwhelmed but not at the start where it's worse but a long time after when it is much better?

The fact that the devices of the Old Ones were keeping Chaos out is already canon. You do realise that they only break completely eventually when things go wrong within?

I can fire a fairly heavy round at a tank from the outside and dent it, or I can do the same from the inside and effectively render it useless. That's a fairly common problem with tehcnology, stuff stops working when it gets nailed with stuff it wasn't designed for. In this case, it was overloaded slightly by Slaanesh, but it took the slow wearing away within the internal WFB world to finally break it for good. Again, pretty common real world concepts. For someone concerned about reality in fiction, you seem to have difficulty picturing appropriate parallels.

Or you could not "throw something together" and have two seperate but coherent and decent universes.

Sure. But that wasn't the point of the thought exercise now, was it?

1. I repeat there is a difference between unrealistic and BAD. You keep citing BAD writing.
2. Oh yeah those myths that were completely ignored and mocked! I can really see all the respect there. It's dumb to assume an incredibly arrogant and selfish culture with unrivalled power wouldn't think twice about taking a planet where the most powerful force is medieval humans?
3.Because they hurt the enemy. A device blocking the Warp doesn't threaten a race that doesn't use the Warp much does it?
4. You seem to have missed the point a little. It's odd that it only breaks way after the part that would damage it when there's no reason for this.

Maybe because even now, eldar see humans as monkeys, and that if they even saw medieval level humans they would probably just laugh and move on.

Would be like coming across an ant hill, sure i could destroy it, but why waste the time.

They don't have to waste time. They send automata at it and hey presto new world for them with 0 effort.

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

1. There's power and there's ridiculous.

I repeat. Welcome to Warhammer. The backflipping Terminators are on your right, the lasguns which somehow penetrate SM armour are on the left, and if you walk through the open door, you'll see Calgar punching an Avatar in the face and KOing it. Please leave a donation on your way out.

You're right in a society that eventually began to ignore their own gods and have respect for nothing there was that one planet they completely respected because it had primitive lizard people on it.

Waitaminute. You're claiming the idea of the Eldar venerating their creators is dumb? I hate to break it to you, but there's a lot of Eldar myths which would prove you otherwise.

Not to mention that trying to secondguess Eldar motivations and say what they wouldn't do is actually five times dumber fluff wise than anything said yet.

3. So for some reason the Old Ones made technology that mainly hurts them. Okay.

You know, nukes can hurt the USA as well. Why on earth would they do research into them or manufacture? It couldn't be in case their enemies can use/will use it against them, or to develop countermeasures, or the hope for tehcnological spin-off into alternative civilian fields, or various other reasons.

Seriously?

4. So it gets overwhelmed but not at the start where it's worse but a long time after when it is much better?

The fact that the devices of the Old Ones were keeping Chaos out is already canon. You do realise that they only break completely eventually when things go wrong within?

I can fire a fairly heavy round at a tank from the outside and dent it, or I can do the same from the inside and effectively render it useless. That's a fairly common problem with tehcnology, stuff stops working when it gets nailed with stuff it wasn't designed for. In this case, it was overloaded slightly by Slaanesh, but it took the slow wearing away within the internal WFB world to finally break it for good. Again, pretty common real world concepts. For someone concerned about reality in fiction, you seem to have difficulty picturing appropriate parallels.

Or you could not "throw something together" and have two seperate but coherent and decent universes.

Sure. But that wasn't the point of the thought exercise now, was it?

1. I repeat there is a difference between unrealistic and BAD. You keep citing BAD writing.
2. Oh yeah those myths that were completely ignored and mocked! I can really see all the respect there. It's dumb to assume an incredibly arrogant and selfish culture with unrivalled power wouldn't think twice about taking a planet where the most powerful force is medieval humans?
3.Because they hurt the enemy. A device blocking the Warp doesn't threaten a race that doesn't use the Warp much does it?
4. You seem to have missed the point a little. It's odd that it only breaks way after the part that would damage it when there's no reason for this.

On this wholle point of hiding a single world in an empire in 40k, it has been done before in canon to both greater and lesser degrees. For example as of 4e with CraftWorld, there was I believe Ulthie Craftworld hiding in the Sol System between Mars and earth. An Eldar craftworld about the size of Terra to boot. From just a general Sci-Fi stand point this is a pretty staple idea, with many many ways to pull it off long before you through in "magic"(WFB) or extreme Psychers (40K) in to the mix. Simply blocking WebWays would effectively keep the Eldar out, and extreme warpstorms, reference Old Night as an example, have been used to prevent warp travel to planets all the time in 40k. So that aspect of the proposal is by 40k fiction/canon standards at least on par with average.

AS to why the Eldar might ignore some random planet? One word for you: Farseer. If the Farseers say no touchie, the eldar have this tendency to keep hands off.

Nothing in the proposed "canon" would have an adverse effect on the Old Ones.

barnowl wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

1. There's power and there's ridiculous.

I repeat. Welcome to Warhammer. The backflipping Terminators are on your right, the lasguns which somehow penetrate SM armour are on the left, and if you walk through the open door, you'll see Calgar punching an Avatar in the face and KOing it. Please leave a donation on your way out.

You're right in a society that eventually began to ignore their own gods and have respect for nothing there was that one planet they completely respected because it had primitive lizard people on it.

Waitaminute. You're claiming the idea of the Eldar venerating their creators is dumb? I hate to break it to you, but there's a lot of Eldar myths which would prove you otherwise.

Not to mention that trying to secondguess Eldar motivations and say what they wouldn't do is actually five times dumber fluff wise than anything said yet.

3. So for some reason the Old Ones made technology that mainly hurts them. Okay.

You know, nukes can hurt the USA as well. Why on earth would they do research into them or manufacture? It couldn't be in case their enemies can use/will use it against them, or to develop countermeasures, or the hope for tehcnological spin-off into alternative civilian fields, or various other reasons.

Seriously?

4. So it gets overwhelmed but not at the start where it's worse but a long time after when it is much better?

The fact that the devices of the Old Ones were keeping Chaos out is already canon. You do realise that they only break completely eventually when things go wrong within?

I can fire a fairly heavy round at a tank from the outside and dent it, or I can do the same from the inside and effectively render it useless. That's a fairly common problem with tehcnology, stuff stops working when it gets nailed with stuff it wasn't designed for. In this case, it was overloaded slightly by Slaanesh, but it took the slow wearing away within the internal WFB world to finally break it for good. Again, pretty common real world concepts. For someone concerned about reality in fiction, you seem to have difficulty picturing appropriate parallels.

Or you could not "throw something together" and have two seperate but coherent and decent universes.

Sure. But that wasn't the point of the thought exercise now, was it?

1. I repeat there is a difference between unrealistic and BAD. You keep citing BAD writing.
2. Oh yeah those myths that were completely ignored and mocked! I can really see all the respect there. It's dumb to assume an incredibly arrogant and selfish culture with unrivalled power wouldn't think twice about taking a planet where the most powerful force is medieval humans?
3.Because they hurt the enemy. A device blocking the Warp doesn't threaten a race that doesn't use the Warp much does it?
4. You seem to have missed the point a little. It's odd that it only breaks way after the part that would damage it when there's no reason for this.

On this wholle point of hiding a single world in an empire in 40k, it has been done before in canon to both greater and lesser degrees. For example as of 4e with CraftWorld, there was I believe Ulthie Craftworld hiding in the Sol System between Mars and earth. An Eldar craftworld about the size of Terra to boot. From just a general Sci-Fi stand point this is a pretty staple idea, with many many ways to pull it off long before you through in "magic"(WFB) or extreme Psychers (40K) in to the mix. Simply blocking WebWays would effectively keep the Eldar out, and extreme warpstorms, reference Old Night as an example, have been used to prevent warp travel to planets all the time in 40k. So that aspect of the proposal is by 40k fiction/canon standards at least on par with average.

AS to why the Eldar might ignore some random planet? One word for you: Farseer. If the Farseers say no touchie, the eldar have this tendency to keep hands off.

Nothing in the proposed "canon" would have an adverse effect on the Old Ones.

You're seriously comparing the incompetent IoM to the Eldar Empire.....
You realise that the Eldar do open blocked gateways?

I'd be very impressed considering that there weren't Farseers at the time.

pm713 wrote:
1. I repeat there is a difference between unrealistic and BAD. You keep citing BAD writing.

And I'm saying that this 'writing' hasn't been written. You cannot assess the quality of what does not exist. The point I am attempting to drill home here, is that it is entirely feasible to write the WFB world into the 40K world with a minimum of effort utilising technologies, races, and motivations that already exist.

Whether that writing ends up being bad or good depends upon both the author and reader.

2. Oh yeah those myths that were completely ignored and mocked!

Yes, because the Eldar frequently get drunk and make ribald jokes about Isha.

Not to mention that you're conflating pre-Fall Eldar with post-Fall ones. It would be simplicity itself to devise a reason why pre-fall Eldar might avoid a planet. It could be being watched over by a religious eldar sect or it could be hidden by another one which enjoys watching the inhabitants through a galactic telescope for pleasure. Who knows? We don't know much about pre-fall Eldar, so trying to scoff and say they would or wouldn't do something is already unrealistic fluff because the fluff required for that knowledge does not exist. The fact society split into three is known, but that could easily be divided further, in the same way the Ork Klans or IG regiments get added.

3.Because they hurt the enemy. A device blocking the Warp doesn't threaten a race that doesn't use the Warp much does it?

No, but it might have been a trial run for a new enemy of the Old Ones that utilised warp technology. Say, the Enslavers.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Enslavers
Heck, they might even develop that sort of technology just in case one of their own races *coughEldarcough* turned on them. Again, a dozen perfectly legitimate reasons can be contrived and built into a coherent whole by a competent writer.

4. You seem to have missed the point a little. It's odd that it only breaks way after the part that would damage it when there's no reason for this.

Errr.....the End Times aren't considered enough of a reason?

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
1. I repeat there is a difference between unrealistic and BAD. You keep citing BAD writing.

And I'm saying that this 'writing' hasn't been written. You cannot assess the quality of what does not exist. The point I am attempting to drill home here, is that it is entirely feasible to write the WFB world into the 40K world with a minimum of effort utilising technologies, races, and motivations that already exist.

Whether that writing ends up being bad or good depends upon both the author and reader.

2. Oh yeah those myths that were completely ignored and mocked!

Yes, because the Eldar frequently get drunk and make ribald jokes about Isha.

Not to mention that you're conflating pre-Fall Eldar with post-Fall ones. It would be simplicity itself to devise a reason why pre-fall Eldar might avoid a planet. It could be being watched over by a religious eldar sect or it could be hidden by another one which enjoys watching the inhabitants through a galactic telescope for pleasure. Who knows? We don't know much about pre-fall Eldar, so trying to scoff and say they would or wouldn't do something is already unrealistic fluff because the fluff required for that knowledge does not exist. The fact society split into three is known, but that could easily be divided further, in the same way the Ork Klans or IG regiments get added.

3.Because they hurt the enemy. A device blocking the Warp doesn't threaten a race that doesn't use the Warp much does it?

No, but it might have been a trial run for a new enemy of the Old Ones that utilised warp technology. Say, the Enslavers.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Enslavers
Heck, they might even develop that sort of technology just in case one of their own races *coughEldarcough* turned on them. Again, a dozen perfectly legitimate reasons can be contrived and built into a coherent whole by a competent writer.

4. You seem to have missed the point a little. It's odd that it only breaks way after the part that would damage it when there's no reason for this.

Errr.....the End Times aren't considered enough of a reason?

Your ideas are based entirely on unlikely things happening though. That is not how good writing begins. If I wrote a novel about Corax coming out of the Warp and single handedly solving every problem in a week then no matter how nice my writing is it would be bad.
You're talking about Eldar as they were at the Fall. Before that we know what they were like and we can make reasonable assumptions about their behaviour.

Say the enemy that didn't exist until about the time they were beaten.

The End Times are essentially an invasion of a medieval period army. It's a pretty bad mechanism that gets broken by cannons going off somewhere on a planet.

pm713 wrote:

Your ideas are based entirely on unlikely things happening though. That is not how good writing begins.

Blimey mate, how likely was it two hobbits would get to Mordor?Or that a young girl playing Hide and Seek would fall into a winter wonderland illuminated by one lamp post? That alone proves that generalised statement wrong.

When you read this stuff, you agree to a certain suspension of belief, the hero always has to get there in time, and anti-grav devices have to work. The only reason this would be any more unlikely than literally thousands of other things in the 40K world (from Cegorach surviving to Slaydo being able to conquer so many worlds) is if the fluff already established gave a flat out reason as to why it couldn't happen. Which it hasn't, as we can see by the fact that you're flailing around and just keep repeating yourself and ignoring things like The Enslavers which completely refute the contradictions you're making.

Heck, the fluff hasn't even given a reason as to why it would be unlikely, despite the fact you keep claiming it is. Why would it be unlikely? What makes it more unlikely than Fenris having smegging huge monsters all over it? Why would it be more unlikely than Horus falling to the Warp? The only reason you seem to be able to provide, is that you personally, do not like the idea, and think you would find it 'bad writing'. Even though it hasn't been written.

It's unlikely because we have to ignore the Eldar Empire, think of a reason for the Old Ones to seperate out a planet and make up a reason it isn't affected by the Eye of Terror.

pm713 wrote:
It's unlikely because we have to ignore the Eldar Empire, think of a reason for the Old Ones to seperate out a planet and make up a reason it isn't affected by the Eye of Terror.

Because warp tom foolery.

There is no reason, its the old ones, they also made the Korks with out any means to stop them after they finished their job, they are not very good at what they do.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It's unlikely because we have to ignore the Eldar Empire, think of a reason for the Old Ones to seperate out a planet and make up a reason it isn't affected by the Eye of Terror.

Because warp tom foolery.

There is no reason, its the old ones, they also made the Korks with out any means to stop them after they finished their job, they are not very good at what they do.

Mind control via psychic powers. The Imperium made a device that blew the heads off Xenos with psychic power. Pretty sure the Old Ones can do that.

pm713 wrote:
It's unlikely because we have to ignore the Eldar Empire, think of a reason for the Old Ones to seperate out a planet and make up a reason it isn't affected by the Eye of Terror.

As stated above, all of these can have perfectly reasonable explanations, making the scenario no less likely than practically every event in 40K from the Horus Heresy onwards.

Seriously, I could raise objections like these to the Heresy itself.

'Yeah, but first you have to invent a way for the Chaos Gods to influence the Materium, and then come up with a way to injure a superhuman Primarch, and then he has to somehow persuade like half of his brothers to turn on their father, and then somehow they have not be caught whilst planning it....'

The above is an unlikely scenario using your method of reasoning. It still happened.

The 'writing' you're searching for is a plot, or a central narrative that ties the occurrences together in a coherent and believable fashion. What precludes something from being believable is a clash with already established fluff, or an event that is so ridiculous it just makes no sense (thus disrupting the coherence, and in turn the believability).

We've already established the fluff is of little issue (it can be tailored reasonably well, the framework is there), and by the standards of the 40K world? The event itself is quite tame. So actually, I strongly oppose your assertion that the series of events required to combine the two worlds would be a particularly unlikely occurrence by 40K standards. I've given solid fluff reasons for many things above, in many cases, multiple plausible ways it could be done whilst sticking firmly to the canon.

You are of course, free to disagree, but I don't think you're going to change my mind here unless you wheel out some bigger fluff cannons than what you've deployed so far.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It's unlikely because we have to ignore the Eldar Empire, think of a reason for the Old Ones to seperate out a planet and make up a reason it isn't affected by the Eye of Terror.

As stated above, all of these can have perfectly reasonable explanations, making the scenario no less likely than practically every event in 40K from the Horus Heresy onwards.

Seriously, I could raise objections like these to the Heresy itself.

'Yeah, but first you have to invent a way for the Chaos Gods to influence the Materium, and then come up with a way to injure a superhuman Primarch, and then he has to somehow persuade like half of his brothers to turn on their father, and then somehow they have not be caught whilst planning it....'

The above is an unlikely scenario using your method of reasoning. It still happened.

The 'writing' you're searching for is a plot, or a central narrative that ties the occurrences together in a coherent and believable fashion. What precludes something from being believable is a clash with already established fluff, or an event that is so ridiculous it just makes no sense (thus disrupting the coherence, and in turn the believability).

We've already established the fluff is of little issue (it can be tailored reasonably well, the framework is there), and by the standards of the 40K world? The event itself is quite tame. So actually, I strongly oppose your assertion that the series of events required to combine the two worlds would be a particularly unlikely occurrence by 40K standards. I've given solid fluff reasons for many things above, in many cases, multiple plausible ways it could be done whilst sticking firmly to the canon.

You are of course, free to disagree, but I don't think you're going to change my mind here unless you wheel out some bigger fluff cannons than what you've deployed so far.

I think we should just agree to disagree here. I don't think either of us will change our mind.

pm713 wrote:

I think we should just agree to disagree here. I don't think either of us will change our mind.

Probably an idea.

Have a good week squire.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I think we should just agree to disagree here. I don't think either of us will change our mind.

Probably an idea.

Have a good week squire.

The same to you.