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Can You Out-Maneuver Eldar Jetbikes with Rhinos?
No, that's fething stupid.
Maybe, but it would be very difficult.
Yes, with skill.
Sure, no problem! Easiest thing in the world!

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Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Traditio wrote:
Scatterbikes killing a rhino in a single round of shooting certainly isn't outside of the realm of possibility, or even probability, for that matter.


Too bad you ignored the "and their contents" part of the post you were replying to. By your own math the bikes take ~2 turns of shooting to kill the transport, then another 2-3 turns to kill the contents of that transport. And that's assuming none of the bikes die at any point, if you manage to kill a bike it's going to take the entire game for them to finish off that single unit.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





You could turn down the rhetoric.

The question is can other books out maneuver Scatter Bikes?

The answer is its possible. Some armies might do it relatively easily. But theit firepower makes it not cake.

I believe you should look into area denial and threats-in-being. Not just 40k specific, but rather the general concepts.

Imagine this. As a teenager, I had to run down horses in a barn. I had to get close enough to grab their halter. Even when they wouldn't even come for food. I could do it. And I'm not atheletic.

Speed isn't everything. It's huge, but surmountable.
   
Made in ca
Ghastly Grave Guard





Canada

 Traditio wrote:
1 unit of scatter bikes = 81 points

Firing 12 S6 shots at 36 inch range at BS 4. Let's do some math:

12/1 X 2/3 X 1/3 = 24/9

Even with cover, that's still 48/27

Scatterbikes killing a rhino in a single round of shooting certainly isn't outside of the realm of possibility, or even probability, for that matter.


And a Rhino is, worst case scenario, 35 points. Realistically, it was probably free. Considering how much of a hard-on you have for statistics, data and math I'm surprised you didn't factor that in when you did your calculations.

Oh wait, no I'm not. Because you always find a way to ignore or twist any mitigating factors that don't jive with whatever point you're blabbing on about.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Traditio wrote:
They'll help for exactly one turn. On the following turn, the jetbikes are just going to hope over those drop pods like they aren't even there. It's ridiculous.


The whole point of drop pods is that there isn't another turn because you deliver a crippling alpha strike when the pod lands.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Galef wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that he refused to use certain units. My advice is geared toward unit selection AND tactical use. If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.


You didn't know this already? It's like the cornerstone of his "argument" how Eldar (and Tau) are OP.

   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Peregrine wrote:Then you're back to your old habit of "my list is already fine and I should not have to use any of the available tools unless I want to". At some point you have to be willing to take things that you might not want to take because they're the best tools for the job.


If a codex has one, and precisely one, answer to a given army composition, then that army composition is OP, imbalanced for the game and claiming that someone needs to "L2P" if he can't do so and so to it by turn 3 is just silly.

White scars are 1 set of chapter tactics out of 7.

Drop pods are 1 dedicated transport out of 4 (including landraiders, and including all landraiders as a single option).

Drop pods are 1 out of the 3 options you can take for free in a gladius.

The gladius is one formation/detachment out of...how many?

Grav cannons are one heavy weapon option out of 7.

Claiming that if I'm not playing this one particular army, then I'm doing it wrong and need to L2P is precisely the kind of comment that will incline me to think that you're TFG and decline any and all games against you and anyone that you just so happen to think well of. And your little dog, too.

Don't care if it's a poodle and plays orks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/06 19:46:17


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that he refused to use certain units. My advice is geared toward unit selection AND tactical use. If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.


You didn't know this already? It's like the cornerstone of his "argument" how Eldar (and Tau) are OP.

D
They are op, but so is gladius.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/06 19:45:16


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Lord Corellia wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
1 unit of scatter bikes = 81 points

Firing 12 S6 shots at 36 inch range at BS 4. Let's do some math:

12/1 X 2/3 X 1/3 = 24/9

Even with cover, that's still 48/27

Scatterbikes killing a rhino in a single round of shooting certainly isn't outside of the realm of possibility, or even probability, for that matter.


And a Rhino is, worst case scenario, 35 points. Realistically, it was probably free. Considering how much of a hard-on you have for statistics, data and math I'm surprised you didn't factor that in when you did your calculations.

Oh wait, no I'm not. Because you always find a way to ignore or twist any mitigating factors that don't jive with whatever point you're blabbing on about.


That rhino, drop pod, etc. costs a minimum of 70 points (that's how much a naked tactical, assault or devastator squad).

If we buy into Galef's tactics, that rhino costs a minimum of 105 points.

The scatter bikes cost 81.

Even if I spammed grav cannons in white scars rhinos, he'll have more bikes than I'll have grav cannons.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Martel732 wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that he refused to use certain units. My advice is geared toward unit selection AND tactical use. If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.


Drop pods really don't help. The eldar neuter your alpha with reserves and then all your guys die because they are on foot.

I've tried reserving the bikes against Pods, even with an Autarch (hwo helps more to bring in units than keep them out). It's really hit or miss. I need those Scatter lasers shooting turn 1 to thin out the enemy.
Sure it keep the bikes alive, but it also helps the enemy focus on the other units. It's a decent tactic, but taking Pods against Eldar is worth it, as long as it not JUST Pods

--

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Galef, your quote is my new sig. That's some sage advice.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Traditio wrote:
Peregrine wrote:Then you're back to your old habit of "my list is already fine and I should not have to use any of the available tools unless I want to". At some point you have to be willing to take things that you might not want to take because they're the best tools for the job.

Some rubbish.

Claiming that if I'm not playing this one particular army, then I'm doing it wrong and need to L2P is precisely the kind of comment that will incline me to think that you're TFG and decline any and all games against you and anyone that you just so happen to think well of. And your little dog, too.

People have given you two solutions. You are wilfully ignoring what you have been told.

So what if you think someone is TFG? You're a pretty big one yourself and frankly if you declined a game against me I would be glad.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Ghastly Grave Guard





Canada

 Traditio wrote:
precisely the kind of comment that will incline me to think that you're TFG and decline any and all games against you and anyone that you just so happen to think well of. And your little dog, too.


You'd refuse a game against my little dog? He's spent so much time training to paint using his little paws. And to push the minis around with his little paws.


And to crush noobs who can't L2P with his little paws.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Traditio wrote:
If a codex has one, and precisely one, answer to a given army composition, then that army composition is OP, imbalanced for the game and claiming that someone needs to "L2P" if he can't do so and so to it by turn 3 is just silly.


This is a rather absurd thing to say given that the suggestion involved three different options. You can't just go through them one by one and say "that's just one option in the codex", and then conclude that the final result is you only have one answer available.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Traditio wrote:
 Lord Corellia wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
1 unit of scatter bikes = 81 points

Firing 12 S6 shots at 36 inch range at BS 4. Let's do some math:

12/1 X 2/3 X 1/3 = 24/9

Even with cover, that's still 48/27

Scatterbikes killing a rhino in a single round of shooting certainly isn't outside of the realm of possibility, or even probability, for that matter.


And a Rhino is, worst case scenario, 35 points. Realistically, it was probably free. Considering how much of a hard-on you have for statistics, data and math I'm surprised you didn't factor that in when you did your calculations.

Oh wait, no I'm not. Because you always find a way to ignore or twist any mitigating factors that don't jive with whatever point you're blabbing on about.


That rhino, drop pod, etc. costs a minimum of 70 points (that's how much a naked tactical, assault or devastator squad).


If we buy into Galef's tactics, that rhino costs a minimum of 105 points.

The scatter bikes cost 81.

Even if I spammed grav cannons in white scars rhinos, he'll have more bikes than I'll have grav cannons.

Except the Rhino probably cost nothing.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Bharring wrote:
You could turn down the rhetoric.


"If you can't corner the bikes by turn 3, then sorry, but you need to L2P."

Sorry if I'm a bit miffed by that.

The question is can other books out maneuver Scatter Bikes?


Dark Eldar jetbikes. That's the only thing that really comes to mind.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Martel732 wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that he refused to use certain units. My advice is geared toward unit selection AND tactical use. If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.


You didn't know this already? It's like the cornerstone of his "argument" how Eldar (and Tau) are OP.

D
They are op, but so is gladius.

Sorry, I rarely remember who has what opinion from thread to thread. I kinda like it that way so that my posts are 'flavored" by previous discussions

   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Peregrine wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
If a codex has one, and precisely one, answer to a given army composition, then that army composition is OP, imbalanced for the game and claiming that someone needs to "L2P" if he can't do so and so to it by turn 3 is just silly.


This is a rather absurd thing to say given that the suggestion involved three different options. You can't just go through them one by one and say "that's just one option in the codex", and then conclude that the final result is you only have one answer available.


Galef's proposal is:

Take grav cannons in a white scars gladius.

Independently, each of these doesn't work on its own. You have to take all three, according to Galef.

That makes it one answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:Except the Rhino probably cost nothing.


What the feth does it matter? One round of shooting, and the rhino is down, the passengers are disembarked, and they aren't going to be able to chase down your bikes.

Rhinos can move 18 inches per turn.

A tactical marine in white power armor holding a grav cannon? Not 18. Less, in fact.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/06 19:50:25


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





That was one somewhat hyperbolic post pages ago in another thread.

Harsh things get said. Saying harsher just perpetuates the hate.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Galef wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that he refused to use certain units. My advice is geared toward unit selection AND tactical use. If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.


Drop pods really don't help. The eldar neuter your alpha with reserves and then all your guys die because they are on foot.

I've tried reserving the bikes against Pods, even with an Autarch (hwo helps more to bring in units than keep them out). It's really hit or miss. I need those Scatter lasers shooting turn 1 to thin out the enemy.
Sure it keep the bikes alive, but it also helps the enemy focus on the other units. It's a decent tactic, but taking Pods against Eldar is worth it, as long as it not JUST Pods

--


You have enough firepower that you really don't need those scatterlasers. That's the hilarity of eldar vs ba.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Traditio wrote:
Bharring wrote:
You could turn down the rhetoric.


"If you can't corner the bikes by turn 3, then sorry, but you need to L2P."

Sorry if I'm a bit miffed by that.

The question is can other books out maneuver Scatter Bikes?


Dark Eldar jetbikes. That's the only thing that really comes to mind.

Welcome to our world....

Dark Eldar Jetbikes, Rhino's, Razorbacks, Drop Pods, Ravenwing, Swiftclaws, Normal marine Bikes, Assault Marines, Necron Jetbikes (Tomb Blades?). Happy?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Bharring wrote:
That was one somewhat hyperbolic post pages ago in another thread.

Harsh things get said. Saying harsher just perpetuates the hate.


That's the goal!
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





A Drop pod costs 35 points. It is the most maneuverable unit in the game on turn1.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





pm713 wrote:People have given you two solutions. You are wilfully ignoring what you have been told.


The one solution that I've seen presented is:

White scars gladius rhinos with grav cannons.

What was the other one?

The drop pods? That was part of Galef's overall singular solution.

So what if you think someone is TFG? You're a pretty big one yourself and frankly if you declined a game against me I would be glad.


I'll leave it to you to contemplate the inherent contradiction/irony of the latter proposition.

Though, going back to the original line of thought.

I don't even care if your poodle's fleas play Dark Eldar. Nope. Nope. A thousand times nope!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/06 19:53:29


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Traditio wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
If a codex has one, and precisely one, answer to a given army composition, then that army composition is OP, imbalanced for the game and claiming that someone needs to "L2P" if he can't do so and so to it by turn 3 is just silly.



Gale
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:Except the Rhino probably cost nothing.


What the feth does it matter? One round of shooting, and the rhino is down, the passengers are disembarked, and they aren't going to be able to chase down your bikes.

Rhinos can move 18 inches per turn.

A tactical marine in white power armor holding a grav cannon? Not 18. Less, in fact.

They will however kill some and the other Rhino will also begin attacking because you aren't stupid and employed tactics.

Shockingly a grav cannon does not have a range of 0.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Ghastly Grave Guard





Canada

 Traditio wrote:
That rhino, drop pod, etc. costs a minimum of 70 points (that's how much a naked tactical, assault or devastator squad).

If we buy into Galef's tactics, that rhino costs a minimum of 105 points.

The scatter bikes cost 81.

Even if I spammed grav cannons in white scars rhinos, he'll have more bikes than I'll have grav cannons.


Ok, but considering that the 70+ point squad is still there and all that was vapourized was a free transport, how does that change anything? I can see how you'd be frustrated if your decision is "I can't shoot at them now, I don't want to be OP! Heaven forbid anyone should think of me as TFG!"

Fact is, we already think of you in worse light than that. At this rate, being thought of as TFG should be what you aspire to.

But hey bro, #FreeSpeech!
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:People have given you two solutions. You are wilfully ignoring what you have been told.


The one solution that I've seen presented is:

White scars gladius rhinos with grav cannons.

What was the other one?

The drop pods? That was part of Galef's overall singular solution.

So what if you think someone is TFG? You're a pretty big one yourself and frankly if you declined a game against me I would be glad.


I'll leave it to you to contemplate the inherent contradiction/irony of the latter proposition.

Rhino's and Drop Pods are two different solutions....

Basic maths will tell you that or do I need to teach you the number line?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Bharring wrote:
A Drop pod costs 35 points. It is the most maneuverable unit in the game on turn1.


But does nothing after turn 1. It turns all those units into suicide units because being on foot is fatal.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Traditio wrote:
Galef's proposal is:

Take grav cannons in a white scars gladius.

Independently, each of these doesn't work on its own. You have to take all three, according to Galef.

That makes it one answer.


Clearly you aren't reading the same thread as the rest of us because in our version of the thread the post in question has multiple instances of "if you don't have X you can use Y instead".

What the feth does it matter? One round of shooting, and the rhino is down, the passengers are disembarked, and they aren't going to be able to chase down your bikes.


Ah yes, now you round up the firepower numbers in your favor to make it one round of shooting instead of two. By the actual numbers it takes 4-5 turns on average for the jetbikes to kill a 5-man tactical squad in a Rhino. IOW, they spend almost the entire game doing it, and that's assuming that none of the bikes die at any point.

A tactical marine in white power armor holding a grav cannon? Not 18. Less, in fact.


So what? They have 24" range with that grav cannon, enforcing a rather significant "do not enter" bubble. And you can overlap that bubble with the threat radius of other units, forcing the bikes to either trade fire with you or run away off into the middle of nowhere and become useless paperweights.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




pm713 wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:People have given you two solutions. You are wilfully ignoring what you have been told.


The one solution that I've seen presented is:

White scars gladius rhinos with grav cannons.

What was the other one?

The drop pods? That was part of Galef's overall singular solution.

So what if you think someone is TFG? You're a pretty big one yourself and frankly if you declined a game against me I would be glad.


I'll leave it to you to contemplate the inherent contradiction/irony of the latter proposition.

Rhino's and Drop Pods are two different solutions....

Basic maths will tell you that or do I need to teach you the number line?


Wait, I thought Drop Pods were a dedicated transport for Rhinos. So you put grav cents on bikes in the rhino and put that in the drop pod.

One solution.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Lord Corellia wrote:Ok, but considering that the 70+ point squad is still there and all that was vapourized was a free transport, how does that change anything?


At that point, I'm waiting for you to explain to me how squad inside is going to chase down those jetbikes and "corner" them by turn 3. You have my attention.
   
 
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