Switch Theme:

Outmaneuvering those Jetbikes  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Poll
Can You Out-Maneuver Eldar Jetbikes with Rhinos?
No, that's fething stupid.
Maybe, but it would be very difficult.
Yes, with skill.
Sure, no problem! Easiest thing in the world!

View results
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





I've decided to make a new thread to carry on a conversation in another thread in which it doesn't belong.

In another thread, it was told to me, by two eldar players, that the key to beating jetbikes is outmaneuvering them.

I simply can't wrap my mind around this concept.

Would someone like to explain to me how I can outmaneuver an Eldar jetbike, which moves up to 48 inches per turn while ignoring intervening models (including enemy models) and terrain, with rhinos?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/06 19:25:44


 
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




UK

 Traditio wrote:
I've decided to make a new thread to carry on a conversation in another thread in which it doesn't belong.

In another thread, it was told to me, by two eldar players, that the key to beating jetbikes is outmaneuvering them.

I simply can't wrap my mind around this concept.

Would someone like to explain to me how I can outmaneuver an Eldar jetbike, which moves up to 48 inches per turn while ignoring intervening models (including enemy models) and terrain, with rhinos?


They were pulling your leg.

 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





They seemed pretty fething serious to me.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/695765.page
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Maneuvering doesn't literally mean move faster than them. That's impossible. To maneuver in such a way that they can't outrange the majority of your firepower - is exactly how you beat them.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





I've decided to make a poll. I want to see how common this opinion is.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






A good place to start is to remember that the jetbikes only get 48" movement distance if they give up shooting and charging, so forcing them to move flat out to counter your move has a lot of value.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Honestly Traditio, I'm not sure why you believe anyone at this point would either take you seriously or talk to you seriously. You're either a troll who likes to rub peoples noses in it or a bull-headed fool too stubborn to adapt, but who firmly believes everyone else should adapt to revolve around the way you have fun.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Peregrine wrote:
A good place to start is to remember that the jetbikes only get 48" movement distance if they give up shooting and charging, so forcing them to move flat out to counter your move has a lot of value.


The exact recommendation was that the "easy" way to kill scatter bikes is to corner them, and that if I can't corner them by turn 3, I need to L2P.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






It's more like...where are you going to hide from my 10 free razorbacks?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Traditio wrote:
I've decided to make a poll. I want to see how common this opinion is.

Love that data!

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more like...where are you going to hide from my 10 free razorbacks?


The word was "corner." If I can't corner those jetbikes by turn 3, I need to L2P.

I kid you not. Those words were used.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Traditio wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more like...where are you going to hide from my 10 free razorbacks?


The word was "corner." If I can't corner those jetbikes by turn 3, I need to L2P.

I kid you not. Those words were used.

Fairer than decrying an entire two factions as "OP bullgak" without any flexibility or willingness to discuss.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Traditio wrote:
The exact recommendation was that the "easy" way to kill scatter bikes is to corner them, and that if I can't corner them by turn 3, I need to L2P.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.


What's so complicated about it? You set it up so that the jetbikes are between your advancing forces and the table edge, and then you move towards them. Either the jetbikes accept the fight and you get to engage them, or they run away and give up shooting, charging, and claiming objectives in favor of a desperate attempt to survive. It doesn't matter if they can move 48" a turn if the become a useless paperweight by doing so.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Peregrine wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
The exact recommendation was that the "easy" way to kill scatter bikes is to corner them, and that if I can't corner them by turn 3, I need to L2P.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.


What's so complicated about it? You set it up so that the jetbikes are between your advancing forces and the table edge, and then you move towards them. Either the jetbikes accept the fight and you get to engage them, or they run away and give up shooting, charging, and claiming objectives in favor of a desperate attempt to survive. It doesn't matter if they can move 48" a turn if the become a useless paperweight by doing so.


Well there's the part where the rest of the eldar cut you to pieces.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Martel732 wrote:
Well there's the part where the rest of the eldar cut you to pieces.


Which has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

Which army do you want discussed, because each can do it differently. Lets go with Marines because I think that is what you play.

If you have a Gladius you Scout all your free Rhinos up to the center line. Now all your Grav Cannons have a 48" bubble to shoot most of the board, forcing the Eldar play to play defensively and back into a corner. Then you drop 2-3 Drop Pods in that corner, kill 1-2 bikes per unit and make them take a LD8 test or run off the board.
Any bike that survive now have a hard choice: Stay and shoot the Rhinos which might take 1-2 bike units to kill 1 Rhino if you positioned right, OR turboboost over the Grav-Bubble of Death KNOWING that they is no way to actually get completely out of that bubble in that turn.

If you don't play Gladius, or Khan to Scout, take a Skyahmmer and kill 4 bike units on the drop. How cares if they all die to the WK and D-scythes, you just killed all his ObSec. Dont' have Skyhammer? All marine variants have Drop pods, use them to kill the bikes, but have enough units in your back field to make it hard to them to COMPLETELY get away from everything.

Play Nids? Dakka Flyrants, DakkaGuants and Venomthropes. Flood the board with with 2+ cover saves that the Bikes can't ignore. Each Dakka Flyrant deletes a bike unti per turn AND can be hurt by a WK.



And by the way, I used the word "corner", because it happens en almost every game I play a decent opponent, not to all my bike, but at least to 1 unit per game. the board is not big enough to get away from every threat as long as you don't cluster your whole army in 1 spot.

--

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/06 19:35:03


   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Traditio wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more like...where are you going to hide from my 10 free razorbacks?


The word was "corner." If I can't corner those jetbikes by turn 3, I need to L2P.

I kid you not. Those words were used.


Yeah - it's not even important that you corner them. It's important they can't keep shooting at you out of your armies range with an easy route to keep it up. If you can shoot them you are doing fine. They aren't really that though.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Peregrine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Well there's the part where the rest of the eldar cut you to pieces.


Which has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.


But is of critical importance.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Peregrine wrote:What's so complicated about it? You set it up so that the jetbikes are between your advancing forces and the table edge, and then you move towards them. Either the jetbikes accept the fight and you get to engage them, or they run away and give up shooting, charging, and claiming objectives in favor of a desperate attempt to survive. It doesn't matter if they can move 48" a turn if the become a useless paperweight by doing so.


Assuming minimal casualties to the advancing forces (which we are not justified in assuming...like...at all; that's just a stupid assumption), I can see how it could theoretically be possible to "corner" jetbikes and force them into the option of either standing and shooting (and taking a lot of firepower to the face), or else, turbo-boosting into safety and wasting a turn of shooting.

But "cornering" them in the sense intended in that thread?

And it's not like they'll be useless for a turn. They can basically teleport 48 inches. There's bound to be an objective somewhere within 48 inches.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
Which army do you want discussed, because each can do it differently. Lets go with Marines because I think that is what you play.

If you have a Gladius you Scout all your free Rhinos up to the center line. Now all your Grav Cannons have a 48" bubble to shoot most of the board, forcing the Eldar play to play defensively and back into a corner. Then you drop 2-3 Drop Pods in that corner, kill 1-2 bikes per unit and make them take a LD8 test or run off the board.
Any bike that survive now have a hard choice: Stay and shoot the Rhinos which might take 1-2 bike units to kill 1 Rhino if you positioned right, OR turboboost over the Grav-Bubble of Death KNOWING that they is no way to actually get completely out of that bubble in that turn.

If you don't play Gladius, or Khan to Scout, take a Skyahmmer and kill 4 bike units on the drop. How cares if they all die to the WK and D-scythes, you just killed all his ObSec. Dont' have Skyhammer? All marine variants have Drop pods, use them to kill the bikes, but have enough units in your back field to make it hard to them to COMPLETELY get away from everything.

Play Nids? Dakka Flyrants, DakkaGuants and Venomthropes. Flood the board with with 2+ cover saves that the Bikes can't ignore. Each Dakka Flyrant deletes a bike unti per turn AND can be hurt by a WK.


What if I don't use drop pods, grav or white scars?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/06 19:34:15


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Galef wrote:
Which army do you want discussed, because each can do it differently. Lets go with Marines because I think that is what you play.

If you have a Gladius you Scout all your free Rhinos up to the center line. Now all your Grav Cannons have a 48" bubble to shoot most of the board, forcing the Eldar play to play defensively and back into a corner. Then you drop 2-3 Drop Pods in that corner, kill 1-2 bikes per unit and make them take a LD8 test or run off the board.
Any bike that survive now have a hard choice: Stay and shoot the Rhinos which might take 1-2 bike units to kill 1 Rhino if you positioned right, OR turboboost over the Grav-Bubble of Death KNOWING that they is no way to actually get completely out of that bubble in that turn.

If you don't play Gladius, or Khan to Scout, take a Skyahmmer and kill 4 bike units on the drop. How cares if they all die to the WK and D-scythes, you just killed all his ObSec. Dont' have Skyhammer? All marine variants have Drop pods, use them to kill the bikes, but have enough units in your back field to make it hard to them to COMPLETELY get away from everything.

Play Nids? Dakka Flyrants, DakkaGuants and Venomthropes. Flood the board with with 2+ cover saves that the Bikes can't ignore. Each Dakka Flyrant deletes a bike unti per turn AND can be hurt by a WK.


Elea
Eldar players reserve the bikes vs pods.
   
Made in ca
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






 Galef wrote:
Which army do you want discussed, because each can do it differently. Lets go with Marines because I think that is what you play.

If you have a Gladius you Scout all your free Rhinos up to the center line. Now all your Grav Cannons have a 48" bubble to shoot most of the board, forcing the Eldar play to play defensively and back into a corner. Then you drop 2-3 Drop Pods in that corner, kill 1-2 bikes per unit and make them take a LD8 test or run off the board.
Any bike that survive now have a hard choice: Stay and shoot the Rhinos which might take 1-2 bike units to kill 1 Rhino if you positioned right, OR turboboost over the Grav-Bubble of Death KNOWING that they is no way to actually get completely out of that bubble in that turn.

If you don't play Gladius, or Khan to Scout, take a Skyahmmer and kill 4 bike units on the drop. How cares if they all die to the WK and D-scythes, you just killed all his ObSec. Dont' have Skyhammer? All marine variants have Drop pods, use them to kill the bikes, but have enough units in your back field to make it hard to them to COMPLETELY get away from everything.

Play Nids? Dakka Flyrants, DakkaGuants and Venomthropes. Flood the board with with 2+ cover saves that the Bikes can't ignore. Each Dakka Flyrant deletes a bike unti per turn AND can be hurt by a WK.


Don't forget, he refuses to use grav or drop pods. Also, all of his opponents must have loaded dice because he seems to believe that a unit of 3 Scatterbikes is able to erase 3 Rhinos and their contents in a single shooting phase.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Xenomancers wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
It's more like...where are you going to hide from my 10 free razorbacks?


The word was "corner." If I can't corner those jetbikes by turn 3, I need to L2P.

I kid you not. Those words were used.


Yeah - it's not even important that you corner them. It's important they can't keep shooting at you out of your armies range with an easy route to keep it up. If you can shoot them you are doing fine. They aren't really that though.


That was the claim. If I can't "corner" jetbikes by turn 3, I need to L2P. That's the topic of this thread.

Is that really a realistic standard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lord Corellia wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Which army do you want discussed, because each can do it differently. Lets go with Marines because I think that is what you play.

If you have a Gladius you Scout all your free Rhinos up to the center line. Now all your Grav Cannons have a 48" bubble to shoot most of the board, forcing the Eldar play to play defensively and back into a corner. Then you drop 2-3 Drop Pods in that corner, kill 1-2 bikes per unit and make them take a LD8 test or run off the board.
Any bike that survive now have a hard choice: Stay and shoot the Rhinos which might take 1-2 bike units to kill 1 Rhino if you positioned right, OR turboboost over the Grav-Bubble of Death KNOWING that they is no way to actually get completely out of that bubble in that turn.

If you don't play Gladius, or Khan to Scout, take a Skyahmmer and kill 4 bike units on the drop. How cares if they all die to the WK and D-scythes, you just killed all his ObSec. Dont' have Skyhammer? All marine variants have Drop pods, use them to kill the bikes, but have enough units in your back field to make it hard to them to COMPLETELY get away from everything.

Play Nids? Dakka Flyrants, DakkaGuants and Venomthropes. Flood the board with with 2+ cover saves that the Bikes can't ignore. Each Dakka Flyrant deletes a bike unti per turn AND can be hurt by a WK.


Don't forget, he refuses to use grav or drop pods. Also, all of his opponents must have loaded dice because he seems to believe that a unit of 3 Scatterbikes is able to erase 3 Rhinos and their contents in a single shooting phase.


1 unit of scatter bikes = 81 points

Firing 12 S6 shots at 36 inch range at BS 4. Let's do some math:

12/1 X 2/3 X 1/3 = 24/9

Even with cover, that's still 48/27

Scatterbikes killing a rhino in a single round of shooting certainly isn't outside of the realm of possibility, or even probability, for that matter.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/06 19:38:10


 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

Oh, I didn't know that he refused to use certain units. My advice is geared toward unit selection AND tactical use. If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
My premise is that other armies have the tools to beat Eldar, not that any list can.



And BTW Tradito, nice job reading my entire post. You replied in like 30 seconds of me posting it, meaning that as soon as you hit the buzz word "Drop Pod", you toned out my whole message.
Not cool brah, not cool

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/06 19:40:22


   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




That you need to L2P? That's a fact.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






 Galef wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that he refused to use certain units. My advice is geared toward unit selection AND tactical use. If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.


But he doesn't want to be cheesy!
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Traditio wrote:
But "cornering" them in the sense intended in that thread?


Now you're just being over-literal. You boxed them in and took away their ability to do anything useful, whether or not this involved a literal corner of the table is irrelevant.

And it's not like they'll be useless for a turn. They can basically teleport 48 inches. There's bound to be an objective somewhere within 48 inches.


You're playing obsec free transport spam. Don't let them have a useful objective available, and if you're a sensible person who doesn't play maelstrom missions then it doesn't matter if they go sit on an objective halfway through the game.

What if I don't use drop pods, grav or white scars?


Then you're back to your old habit of "my list is already fine and I should not have to use any of the available tools unless I want to". At some point you have to be willing to take things that you might not want to take because they're the best tools for the job.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Galef wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that he refused to use certain units. My advice is geared toward unit selection AND tactical use. If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.


Ok, that makes more sense.

If you are using white scars, the gladius formation, rhinos and grav cannos, I can see how that would be able to corner jet bikes by turn 3.

If not, then it's just silly to say: "If you can't corner them by turn 3, you need to L2P."

Imperial Fist rhinos aren't cornering jetbikes any time soon.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Galef wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that he refused to use certain units. My advice is geared toward unit selection AND tactical use. If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.

And there you have one of the main reasons Traditio isn't going to accept any advice or help.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Galef wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that he refused to use certain units. My advice is geared toward unit selection AND tactical use. If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.


Drop pods really don't help. The eldar neuter your alpha with reserves and then all your guys die because they are on foot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/06 19:41:03


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Martel732 wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Oh, I didn't know that he refused to use certain units. My advice is geared toward unit selection AND tactical use. If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.


Drop pods really don't help.


They'll help for exactly one turn. On the following turn, the jetbikes are just going to hope over those drop pods like they aren't even there. It's ridiculous.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: