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If you're goino for area denial vs Jetbikes, Tacs on foot give a 18" threat bubble and 13" you-will-die bubble on top of the unit footprint (5 guys could give you about 10" wide line) anywhere within 6" of the Pod on disembark, further later.
Both are ObSec, so the Jetbikes can't score until they eliminate both.
Not a great tactic on its own, but mixed with other options, can really saturate a board.
Traditio wrote: At that point, I'm waiting for you to explain to me how squad inside is going to chase down those jetbikes and "corner" them by turn 3. You have my attention.
You use the Rhinos to corner them and set up area denial on the important parts of the table. The Rhinos die, but their job is already done because now you have units all over the table and have left nowhere useful for the jetbikes to hide.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
BossJakadakk wrote:Wait, I thought Drop Pods were a dedicated transport for Rhinos. So you put grav cents on bikes in the rhino and put that in the drop pod.
BossJakadakk wrote:Wait, I thought Drop Pods were a dedicated transport for Rhinos. So you put grav cents on bikes in the rhino and put that in the drop pod.
One solution.
You know that's not a thing, right?
Please tell me that you know that's not a thing.
Did you have an opponent that did that?
He's a dirty little cheater.
I do believe they're mocking you. Or someone anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/06 19:59:47
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
BossJakadakk wrote:Wait, I thought Drop Pods were a dedicated transport for Rhinos. So you put grav cents on bikes in the rhino and put that in the drop pod.
One solution.
You know that's not a thing, right?
Please tell me that you know that's not a thing.
Did you have an opponent that did that?
He's a dirty little cheater.
Honestly I might just let someone do it for the novelty if they thought about it
Peregrine wrote: Clearly you aren't reading the same thread as the rest of us because in our version of the thread the post in question has multiple instances of "if you don't have X you can use Y instead".
Please! Reading through things and understanding them clearly would hamper his ability to talk down to Us fething Guys...
Ah yes, now you round up the firepower numbers in your favor to make it one round of shooting instead of two. By the actual numbers it takes 4-5 turns on average for the jetbikes to kill a 5-man tactical squad in a Rhino. IOW, they spend almost the entire game doing it, and that's assuming that none of the bikes die at any point.
How could any of the bikes ever die? They go faster than any Space Marine eye can track and can move, shoot, charge, jink, teleport and fetch the mail all in a single movement phase. And then again in the shooting phase.
So what? They have 24" range with that grav cannon, enforcing a rather significant "do not enter" bubble. And you can overlap that bubble with the threat radius of other units, forcing the bikes to either trade fire with you or run away off into the middle of nowhere and become useless paperweights.
Don't forget that this is a moot point since he would never sink so low as to use grav anyway. Besides this, clearly the bikes mow down the Rhino and then teleport to the other side of the board where nothing can touch them. Not because that's in the rules, but because that strengthens his argument.
Peregrine wrote:Ah yes, now you round up the firepower numbers in your favor to make it one round of shooting instead of two.
24/9 is closer to 3/1 than 2/1.
By the actual numbers it takes 4-5 turns on average for the jetbikes to kill a 5-man tactical squad in a Rhino.
They don't actually need to. 36 inch range. The only way that tactical squad is going to be a threat is a lascannon, missile launcher or heavy bolter.
And even then, the scatter bikes have sufficient maneuverability to snipe that.
So what? They have 24" range with that grav cannon, enforcing a rather significant "do not enter" bubble. And you can overlap that bubble with the threat radius of other units, forcing the bikes to either trade fire with you or run away off into the middle of nowhere and become useless paperweights.
If the tac stands still, it has a 24 inch range. If it moves, it has an effective 18 inch threat range.
Traditio wrote: At that point, I'm waiting for you to explain to me how squad inside is going to chase down those jetbikes and "corner" them by turn 3. You have my attention.
You use the Rhinos to corner them and set up area denial on the important parts of the table. The Rhinos die, but their job is already done because now you have units all over the table and have left nowhere useful for the jetbikes to hide.
Yep, that pretty much the idea. Plus having to shoot at Rhinos for a turn just to be able to shoot at the Marines is a tactical advantage in itself as it forces all those OP Scatter lasers to fire are FREE Rhinos for a turn.
Are Eldar still gonna win? Maybe, but that Marine player is now on WAY more even ground as you have now diminished 2 of the Eldar Advantages (speed and firepower)
Martel732 wrote: I spam the gak out of grav guns in some lists and it still doesn't matter much.
I've only won games against Grav-spam because I played the mission, but often I have less than 1/4 of my army left at the end of the game. Grav Forces Jink, Jink = almost no shooting happens, No shooting = Rhinos live, Rhinos living = ObSec Marines getting where they want to be. It's not a HARD counter, but it is pretty close
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/06 20:10:41
Lord Corellia wrote:Ok, but considering that the 70+ point squad is still there and all that was vapourized was a free transport, how does that change anything?
At that point, I'm waiting for you to explain to me how squad inside is going to chase down those jetbikes and "corner" them by turn 3. You have my attention.
Oh, right. I hate it when all my Marines forget their guns back at the wreck of the Arx Tyranus. Makes it a fair bit harder to get gak done.
1. If you have a Gladius you Scout all your free Rhinos up to the center line. Now all your Grav Cannons have a 48" bubble to shoot most of the board, forcing the Eldar play to play defensively and back into a corner. Then you drop 2-3 Drop Pods in that corner, kill 1-2 bikes per unit and make them take a LD8 test or run off the board.
Any bike that survive now have a hard choice: Stay and shoot the Rhinos which might take 1-2 bike units to kill 1 Rhino if you positioned right, OR turboboost over the Grav-Bubble of Death KNOWING that they is no way to actually get completely out of that bubble in that turn.
2. If you don't play Gladius, or Khan to Scout, take a Skyahmmer and kill 4 bike units on the drop. Who cares if they all die to the WK and D-scythes, you just killed all his ObSec.
3. Dont' have Skyhammer? All marine variants have Drop pods, use them to kill the bikes, but have enough units in your back field to make it hard to them to COMPLETELY get away from everything.
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3 useful options:
1. Gladius, with or without Scout.
2. Skyhammer formation.
3. Drop Pods, assuming in a CAD. Fill with sternguard, grav tactical, or other shooty unit.
BossJakadakk wrote:Wait, I thought Drop Pods were a dedicated transport for Rhinos. So you put grav cents on bikes in the rhino and put that in the drop pod.
One solution.
You know that's not a thing, right?
Please tell me that you know that's not a thing.
Did you have an opponent that did that?
He's a dirty little cheater.
I do believe they're mocking you. Or someone anyway.
What's your point? The bikes have about a 25% chance of killing a Rhino with a 5+ cover save (you did use your smoke and/or cover, right?) in a single turn of shooting. That's possible, certainly, but less likely than taking two turns to kill the Rhino by a considerable margin.
They don't actually need to. 36 inch range. The only way that tactical squad is going to be a threat is a lascannon, missile launcher or heavy bolter.
And even then, the scatter bikes have sufficient maneuverability to snipe that.
You do understand that a game of 40k does not involve those two units, and only those two units, sitting on an empty table, right? There's LOS-blocking terrain, other units covering the 24-36" range away from the grav squad, table edges 24" away, etc. Use the tools that you have been given.
If the tac stands still, it has a 24 inch range. If it moves, it has an effective 18 inch threat range.
If you need 24" threat range then don't move. The whole idea of area denial is that you turn the entire table into a no-win scenario for your target, you don't run around chasing them and hand over the initiative.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Actually, 9/30 say "no way!" 18/30 say "yeah it's doable with skill", and 3 say "psh, piece of cake", meaning you're in the minority.
Is this a strong minority case again? (also, not just eldar complain about the gladius, nearly any objective based game is pretty much handed to a marine army when they play a gladius)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/07/06 20:25:32
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
Thus far, the poll agrees with my position. In fact, almost 1/3 of the vote agrees with me that what Galef proposed (as stated) was "fething stupid."
And now we come to the "Traditio blatantly abuses polls" part of the thread. 42% of the votes* are some form of "Traditio is completely wrong", and another 26% believe that you're wrong in treating the strategy as "it can't be done and is a stupid idea" even if they acknowledge that it's a difficult strategy to use. So 2/3 of the votes disagree with you. If that's your idea of "the pool agrees with my position" then I don't really know what to say, you're clearly not living in the same reality as the rest of us.
*In the past you've claimed that similar numbers are a "significant minority" that prove that your side is correct.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I'll gladly run a CAD against an eldar opponent who doesn't use a wraithknight, a wave serpent, psykers, bikes or wraithguard.
Until then, Eldar players can't complain.
Furthermore, let the record show:
Thus far, the poll agrees with my position. In fact, almost 1/3 of the vote agrees with me that what Galef proposed (as stated) was "fething stupid."
There's a strong minority for those against though! Plus we haven't had an adequate amount of time! We need at least 24 hours!!!
I do that army already. Go and get your CAD. (Isn't it shocking that not all Eldar players use the same list!)
I almost do that. I do use some Psykers, but I don't use a Wraithknight, I haven't used my Wraithguard (been running them as Wraithblades). In the first 4 weeks of a narrative campaign I've yet to run bikes, and only used a Wave Serpent once (it killed a whole 2 models over the course of the game, but did manage to grab Linebreaker by Turbo-boosting all the way down the field).
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
So... this thread is a marvelous example of how not to behave in an internet discussion.
People, if you can not respond to a thread in a polite fashion without dragging personal baggage over differing gaming philosophies into it, just don't respond.
By this point, the original issue appears to have been addressed (if somewhat painfully) so I'm going to lock this so everyone can step away for a bit.
Offering advice on how to play is a good thing.
Getting snarky about it when someone doesn't take your advice? Not so much. It's just a game. If people want to play it in a way that you feel is sub-optimal, that's entirely their choice.
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