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 Ginsu33 wrote:
Males are different, if we are interested enough in something we will find elements we identify with or interest us, from the heroic actions of Guardsmen, to the responsibilities of the Marines, to the creativity of Orks, the perspective of Tau, the all knowing Eldar.. Cold Necrons.. Tyranids munch munch munch..

None of these things are realistic representations of men. If men can identify with such blatantly unrealistic things then women can identify with their female counterparts.

I do a lot of "recruiting" to the hobby. Public gaming events at everything from conventions to libraries to the FLGS. Most of those events are aimed at younger potential players, tweens and young teenagers. The sadest thing that I see over and over again. It happens a bit after a young woman is fascinated by the models, gameplay, stories, strategy or similar and start to pick up a wider interest in the hobby:

When they hit the brickwall of dudebroish boysclub that is the actual GW representation of models. When they realised that they can choose between nuns (SoB) or skin and boob-armor (Wyches) for their representation. And that all the cool models that are fronted are male space marines and male chaos cultists and male imperial guards etc etc. We loose so many new players that way, and it makes me cry and die a little inside every time.

The hobby could gain a lot of new members by having a better representation of women. And I think that is way more important than any in-world canon.

Mellon wrote:
I do a lot of "recruiting" to the hobby. Public gaming events at everything from conventions to libraries to the FLGS. Most of those events are aimed at younger potential players, tweens and young teenagers. The sadest thing that I see over and over again. It happens a bit after a young woman is fascinated by the models, gameplay, stories, strategy or similar and start to pick up a wider interest in the hobby:

When they hit the brickwall of dudebroish boysclub that is the actual GW representation of models. When they realised that they can choose between nuns (SoB) or skin and boob-armor (Wyches) for their representation. And that all the cool models that are fronted are male space marines and male chaos cultists and male imperial guards etc etc. We loose so many new players that way, and it makes me cry and die a little inside every time.

The hobby could gain a lot of new members by having a better representation of women. And I think that is way more important than any in-world canon.

In universe cannon - ie Black Library has far higher representation of women than the table top.

For whatever reason GW went through a period of purging / ignoring their female tabletop characters - hopefully that has concluded.

The thing I like about 40K is the equality. There are many, many examples of women who have a high position in the imperial society. Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, IG generals - you name it, they can do it. For the Imperials gender dosen't matter, as long as you're doing your duty and are faithful to the Emperor.

Small quesiton/point. Who says that females in the IG are automaticly foot soldiers? The IG needs rear echilon focres (supply, logictics, admin, medical, etc...) just like any other military (Army vet here). Would it not make sence here to assume that many of these non-direct combat personnel are disprapotionaly female. Females are the ones that drive the supply trucks, file the paperwork, fix the weapons, etc... Stuff where only training matters. Maybe they are also that tank drivers. LRBT while large are probably cramped inside. Female being usually smaller would fit and be able to move better in such spaces.

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Small quesiton/point. Who says that females in the IG are automaticly foot soldiers? The IG needs rear echilon focres (supply, logictics, admin, medical, etc...) just like any other military (Army vet here). Would it not make sence here to assume that many of these non-direct combat personnel are disprapotionaly female. Females are the ones that drive the supply trucks, file the paperwork, fix the weapons, etc... Stuff where only training matters. Maybe they are also that tank drivers. LRBT while large are probably cramped inside. Female being usually smaller would fit and be able to move better in such spaces.

If you want it to you can - but there are big women and small men as well?

The regiment that Commissar Cain took over was previously a male only front line regiment and a female only support regiment - merged together due to casualties against the Tyranids - they became a very formidable veteran front line mixed regiment

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Small quesiton/point. Who says that females in the IG are automaticly foot soldiers? The IG needs rear echilon focres (supply, logictics, admin, medical, etc...) just like any other military (Army vet here). Would it not make sence here to assume that many of these non-direct combat personnel are disprapotionaly female. Females are the ones that drive the supply trucks, file the paperwork, fix the weapons, etc... Stuff where only training matters. Maybe they are also that tank drivers. LRBT while large are probably cramped inside. Female being usually smaller would fit and be able to move better in such spaces.

If you want it to you can - but there are big women and small men as well?

The regiment that Commissar Cain took over was previously a male only front line regiment and a female only support regiment - merged together due to casualties against the Tyranids - they became a very formidable veteran front line mixed regiment

Well that's my point. The support regiment was all female. Yes they merged and were effective, but that's secondary in this. Where were the women, in the support regiment. They are still taught to fight, and in some places will, but in most "standard" IG regiments, women are probably placed in more support roles.

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Small quesiton/point. Who says that females in the IG are automaticly foot soldiers? The IG needs rear echilon focres (supply, logictics, admin, medical, etc...) just like any other military (Army vet here). Would it not make sence here to assume that many of these non-direct combat personnel are disprapotionaly female. Females are the ones that drive the supply trucks, file the paperwork, fix the weapons, etc... Stuff where only training matters. Maybe they are also that tank drivers. LRBT while large are probably cramped inside. Female being usually smaller would fit and be able to move better in such spaces.

If you want it to you can - but there are big women and small men as well?

The regiment that Commissar Cain took over was previously a male only front line regiment and a female only support regiment - merged together due to casualties against the Tyranids - they became a very formidable veteran front line mixed regiment

Well that's my point. The support regiment was all female. Yes they merged and were effective, but that's secondary in this. Where were the women, in the support regiment. They are still taught to fight, and in some places will, but in most "standard" IG regiments, women are probably placed in more support roles.

You could also look at Gaunt's Ghosts, where the Verghastite influx into the Tanith First contained a large number of female personnel. They showed up in just about every role that their male counterparts did - marksmanship, heavy weapons, leadership, and beating the gak out of malcontents who didn't like them in charge.

Nobody mouths off to Tona Criid.

Or you could look at Lieutenant Mira from the Space Marine video game - sure, she's in charge because the orks have killed everyone higher up on the chain of command, but there's no indication that her regiment was intended for support duties. They looked pretty front-line combat to me, with the exceptions of the guys manning the Earthshakers...and if you stop to listen, you can hear them squabbling over how to use them correctly and wishing the orks hadn't killed all of the tech-priests, indicating that they're not really familiar with the correct rites of operation.

There's a lot of supplementary (read: non-model) material to indicate that women in the Guard, on average, receive the same treatment as their male counterparts. If you can stand up (or be propped up), hold the line, and fire your flashli...lasgun on full auto at the charging Carnifex while only pooping yourself a little bit, then congratulations, trooper, the Emperor has a use for you; he doesn't care about sex or gender, he's too busy making sure that the Imperium isn't devoured by daemons to be prejudiced (against anything that's human, anyway). Anyone who doesn't like it can sit in the corner with Lijah Cuu.

It's not a good corner to be in.

 Ginsu33 wrote:


Males are different, if we are interested enough in something we will find elements we identify with or interest us, from the heroic actions of Guardsmen, to the responsibilities of the Marines, to the creativity of Orks, the perspective of Tau, the all knowing Eldar.. Cold Necrons.. Tyranids munch munch munch..

But what are female soldiers bringing to the table if their robbed of their vulnerabilities and femininity? Their just men with female bodies? Or soldiers with a forced sex appeal.. and really who is that appealing to, what kind of girl is going to identify with that?

SERIOUSLY?! Men can identify with a diverse range of completely inhuman (but created by human) fictional creatures but Women can't? Based on what infinite pool of wisdom is this sweeping generalization and deduction made? Cause I'm a freaking women and I've never thought to myself 'gee-golly-gosh them Orks and Nids are so unfeminine how could I ever play them'. I really have to quit 40k, I cannot handle the online fanbase.

Differance between men and women of the Imperium? ok lets give an example you have a 2016 penny we'll say its a male, then we have a 2016 penny and we will say its female, there is your difference.

want to see the difference of say Cadian's in a movie? watch Starship Troopers that would be like a typical Cadian army.

So, to satisfly people like Ginsu33, from today, all female models have T2 instead of T3 and in the beggining of movement phase you roll d6. On a roll of , female models have hysteric outburst and cannot perform any action, except from moving 3+d3. Roll single die for every model.

Female vulnerability and femminity are present so you should be happy.

Sarcasm included...

THIS:

Asterios wrote:

want to see the difference of say Cadian's in a movie? watch Starship Troopers that would be like a typical Cadian army.

Again, for all the talk of "real world studies" - this 40k. Your disbelief can be suspended to accept a fungus walking, talking, and being a major challenge for a spacefaring humanity ruled by a sentient corpse, but not for women to have exactly the same role as a man in combat?

Cadians would be do much better than the MI from ST tho.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Cadians would be do much better than the MI from ST tho.

well that is because Cadian's know how to strip a weapon before they know how to walk, they are taught from a young age, but my example is about the differences between men and women. essentially there is none, unless you consider one has boobies and the other has moobies or such.

 Hawky wrote:
So, to satisfly people like Ginsu33, from today, all female models have T2 instead of T3 and in the beggining of movement phase you roll d6. On a roll of , female models have hysteric outburst and cannot perform any action, except from moving 3+d3. Roll single die for every model.

Female vulnerability and femminity are present so you should be happy.

No that wouldn't satisfy me at all because that would imply female infantry are weaker than male in a hypothetical engagement. I state that female infantry do not last as long as male in a long term operation/deployment. To be specific, 2 weeks.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, for all the talk of "real world studies" - this 40k. Your disbelief can be suspended to accept a fungus walking, talking, and being a major challenge for a spacefaring humanity ruled by a sentient corpse, but not for women to have exactly the same role as a man in combat?

If they have the same role as men, then they are the first fictional depiction of a species not to have a fictional explanation for their new found endurance levels.
What justifies fiction? A fictional explanation. Instead here we have a very real implication by GW and fans alike that women are actually capable of this in reality/today. thus no explanation required. - Well sorry but no, excuse me and my interests in real world military for raining on the gender equality parade, but I am not ignorant to the facts and therefore this is ridiculous for me to accept.

Of course if GW said tomorrow that in the grim darkness of the far future, women complete infantry training at male standards, I have no argument at all, I have nothing to complain about. Some kind of human evolution of tens of thousands of years or Cadian women are not typical women, whatever the reason.

 Ginsu33 wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
So, to satisfly people like Ginsu33, from today, all female models have T2 instead of T3 and in the beggining of movement phase you roll d6. On a roll of , female models have hysteric outburst and cannot perform any action, except from moving 3+d3. Roll single die for every model.

Female vulnerability and femminity are present so you should be happy.

No that wouldn't satisfy me at all because that would imply female infantry are weaker than male in a hypothetical engagement. I state that female infantry do not last as long as male in a long term operation/deployment. To be specific, 2 weeks.

So, seeing as it's easily possible that any female guardsmen on table are working in their "two week operational period", would you object to seeing female guardsmen models?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, for all the talk of "real world studies" - this 40k. Your disbelief can be suspended to accept a fungus walking, talking, and being a major challenge for a spacefaring humanity ruled by a sentient corpse, but not for women to have exactly the same role as a man in combat?

If they have the same role as men, then they are the first fictional depiction of a species not to have a fictional explanation for their new found endurance levels.
What justifies fiction? A fictional explanation. Instead here we have a very real implication by GW and fans alike that women are actually capable of this in reality/today. thus no explanation required. - Well sorry but no, excuse me and my interests in real world military for raining on the gender equality parade, but I am not ignorant to the facts and therefore this is ridiculous for me to accept.

Of course if GW said tomorrow that in the grim darkness of the far future, women complete infantry training at male standards, I have no argument at all, I have nothing to complain about. Some kind of human evolution of tens of thousands of years or Cadian women are not typical women, whatever the reason.

I'm not exactly sure what you just said, especially at the start, but I'll infer that you want some explanation for this increased female military competence?

My response:
1. You are judging the infantry training as if the male standard remains the same in the 41st Millennium as is does now. What is to say that the standardisation hasn't changed, and that the new tests are more accommodating to female subjects? You're judging the 40k universe by our own, and as such IRL things like physics, relativism, and your "facts" mean precisely nothing in this universe. To use that argument is to suggest that laws in the Halo or Star Wars universes have a bearing on 40k. The ONLY universe that matters to the 40k one is, three guesses, the 40k one.

2. You say that fiction needs an explanation? Explain how Orks work as a sentient warlike fungus with a psychic gestalt field. Explain how Necron biotransference works. Explain the physics of Space Marines canonically moving faster than the speed of sound. Explain the Warp. Explain why Ursus Claws are seen as effective weapons in void combat. If you can believe and accept all these, why not female soldiers undertaking the same roles as men?

3. Related to the above, perhaps GW and the fans, as you say, would assume that most people could accept an egalitarian conscription and military force in 38000 years. Apparently not.

Also say take a woman on catchan and tell her she is too weak and frail to fight. ..

Hospitals that way.

Every planet will differ. The guard is one of the most varied orgonizationans in a Sci fi universe. Every world has own tradition even regiments.

Everything from all woman to nomwomen will exist.

 Ginsu33 wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
So, to satisfly people like Ginsu33, from today, all female models have T2 instead of T3 and in the beggining of movement phase you roll d6. On a roll of , female models have hysteric outburst and cannot perform any action, except from moving 3+d3. Roll single die for every model.

Female vulnerability and femminity are present so you should be happy.

No that wouldn't satisfy me at all because that would imply female infantry are weaker than male in a hypothetical engagement. I state that female infantry do not last as long as male in a long term operation/deployment. To be specific, 2 weeks.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, for all the talk of "real world studies" - this 40k. Your disbelief can be suspended to accept a fungus walking, talking, and being a major challenge for a spacefaring humanity ruled by a sentient corpse, but not for women to have exactly the same role as a man in combat?

If they have the same role as men, then they are the first fictional depiction of a species not to have a fictional explanation for their new found endurance levels.
What justifies fiction? A fictional explanation. Instead here we have a very real implication by GW and fans alike that women are actually capable of this in reality/today. thus no explanation required. - Well sorry but no, excuse me and my interests in real world military for raining on the gender equality parade, but I am not ignorant to the facts and therefore this is ridiculous for me to accept.

Of course if GW said tomorrow that in the grim darkness of the far future, women complete infantry training at male standards, I have no argument at all, I have nothing to complain about. Some kind of human evolution of tens of thousands of years or Cadian women are not typical women, whatever the reason.

you are aware several countries have female military that actually work in Combat? War has no regard to a persons sex or age or religion, it will kill a woman as fast as a man. so does not a woman have the right to pick up a weapon and defend her self/family/country/planet and so forth ?

Asterios wrote:
you are aware several countries have female military that actually work in Combat? War has no regard to a persons sex or age or religion, it will kill a woman as fast as a man.

Pretty much this, especially in a sci fi universe; when 20mm self propelled Bolt shells exist (that's nearly 4 times the size of a modern NATO round) and can blow an Ork's internal organs through his skin in front of his eyes, I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter if you are male or female. No amount of ease of developing muscle as a male will even stop a lasbolt from causing fatal and traumatic injury, let alone the myriad destructive weapons out there in the 41st Millennium.

G.A

@Ginsu33, a friendly advice: Read thing properly.

In a universe where such genetically deviant abhumans like Ogryns and Squats exist, why anyone should assume that the majority of women are exactly the same as they are on this planet, and wouldn't be slightly mutated to the point whereby they can fight on the battlefield is beyond me. It would be a rather minor fluff development compared to what they face, are equipped with, and fight alongside.

 Ketara wrote:
In a universe where such genetically deviant abhumans like Ogryns and Squats exist, why anyone should assume that the majority of women are exactly the same as they are on this planet, and wouldn't be slightly mutated to the point whereby they can fight on the battlefield is beyond me. It would be a rather minor fluff development compared to what they face, are equipped with, and fight alongside.

You don't even need this to justify women fighting in the Guard ranks. 9 times out of 10, the Imperium can't afford to be picky when drawing from its manpower - they need anyone who can run and fire a Lasgun before they ship them off to basic training, and will take from the noble classes, regular workers and even recruit whole hive gangs and criminals. A human female can put out just as much firepower as a human male, and that's all that matters to the Munitorum.

Mellon wrote:

When they hit the brickwall of dudebroish boysclub that is the actual GW representation of models. When they realised that they can choose between nuns (SoB) or skin and boob-armor (Wyches) for their representation. And that all the cool models that are fronted are male space marines and male chaos cultists and male imperial guards etc etc. We loose so many new players that way, and it makes me cry and die a little inside every time.

The hobby could gain a lot of new members by having a better representation of women. And I think that is way more important than any in-world canon.

Are you serious? So to play a game you absolutely neeeed to be represented in the models? Okay, where are the skinny teen orks? If the only reason you don't play a game is because you're not 'represented', you're a bit too fragile for miniwargaming.

 Matthew wrote:

Mellon wrote:

When they hit the brickwall of dudebroish boysclub that is the actual GW representation of models. When they realised that they can choose between nuns (SoB) or skin and boob-armor (Wyches) for their representation. And that all the cool models that are fronted are male space marines and male chaos cultists and male imperial guards etc etc. We loose so many new players that way, and it makes me cry and die a little inside every time.

The hobby could gain a lot of new members by having a better representation of women. And I think that is way more important than any in-world canon.

Are you serious? So to play a game you absolutely neeeed to be represented in the models? Okay, where are the skinny teen orks? If the only reason you don't play a game is because you're not 'represented', you're a bit too fragile for miniwargaming.

And where's the fat marines?. Honestly I'm tired of this fat shaming and has driven many players out of the game due to being alieanated due to the lack of representation of fat people.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

Mellon wrote:

When they hit the brickwall of dudebroish boysclub that is the actual GW representation of models. When they realised that they can choose between nuns (SoB) or skin and boob-armor (Wyches) for their representation. And that all the cool models that are fronted are male space marines and male chaos cultists and male imperial guards etc etc. We loose so many new players that way, and it makes me cry and die a little inside every time.

The hobby could gain a lot of new members by having a better representation of women. And I think that is way more important than any in-world canon.

Are you serious? So to play a game you absolutely neeeed to be represented in the models? Okay, where are the skinny teen orks? If the only reason you don't play a game is because you're not 'represented', you're a bit too fragile for miniwargaming.

And where's the fat marines?. Honestly I'm tired of this fat shaming and has driven many players out of the game due to being alieanated due to the lack of representation of fat people.

Yeah, and why isn't Anita Sarkeesian a HLOT already? Come on people, we are better than this!

On a serious note, out of the 4 factions I've played only one has been strictly male. And I'm even adding Sisters of Silence to it! Does this make me trans? No it makes me a person who likes fluff. Orks are fungi. They don't have genders. Tau are fish. Chaos cultiss can be anything. Daemons are genderless.

 Matthew wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

Mellon wrote:

When they hit the brickwall of dudebroish boysclub that is the actual GW representation of models. When they realised that they can choose between nuns (SoB) or skin and boob-armor (Wyches) for their representation. And that all the cool models that are fronted are male space marines and male chaos cultists and male imperial guards etc etc. We loose so many new players that way, and it makes me cry and die a little inside every time.

The hobby could gain a lot of new members by having a better representation of women. And I think that is way more important than any in-world canon.

Are you serious? So to play a game you absolutely neeeed to be represented in the models? Okay, where are the skinny teen orks? If the only reason you don't play a game is because you're not 'represented', you're a bit too fragile for miniwargaming.

And where's the fat marines?. Honestly I'm tired of this fat shaming and has driven many players out of the game due to being alieanated due to the lack of representation of fat people.

Yeah, and why isn't Anita Sarkeesian a HLOT already? Come on people, we are better than this!

On a serious note, out of the 4 factions I've played only one has been strictly male. And I'm even adding Sisters of Silence to it! Does this make me trans? No it makes me a person who likes fluff. Orks are fungi. They don't have genders. Tau are fish. Chaos cultiss can be anything. Daemons are genderless.

orks are genderless, Necrons could be swinging both ways. And first and foremost: this is a bloody game of plastic models! Do you really need to be so obsessed with it? most likely not, so don't go around nitpicking.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

Mellon wrote:

When they hit the brickwall of dudebroish boysclub that is the actual GW representation of models. When they realised that they can choose between nuns (SoB) or skin and boob-armor (Wyches) for their representation. And that all the cool models that are fronted are male space marines and male chaos cultists and male imperial guards etc etc. We loose so many new players that way, and it makes me cry and die a little inside every time.

The hobby could gain a lot of new members by having a better representation of women. And I think that is way more important than any in-world canon.

Are you serious? So to play a game you absolutely neeeed to be represented in the models? Okay, where are the skinny teen orks? If the only reason you don't play a game is because you're not 'represented', you're a bit too fragile for miniwargaming.

And where's the fat marines?. Honestly I'm tired of this fat shaming and has driven many players out of the game due to being alieanated due to the lack of representation of fat people.

Yeah, and why isn't Anita Sarkeesian a HLOT already? Come on people, we are better than this!

On a serious note, out of the 4 factions I've played only one has been strictly male. And I'm even adding Sisters of Silence to it! Does this make me trans? No it makes me a person who likes fluff. Orks are fungi. They don't have genders. Tau are fish. Chaos cultiss can be anything. Daemons are genderless.

orks are genderless, Necrons could be swinging both ways. And first and foremost: this is a bloody game of plastic models! Do you really need to be so obsessed with it? most likely not, so don't go around nitpicking.

I was talking to the guy who said women wouldn't play the game when they saw there were only 2 factions with females in them (which isn't true at all.)

I know, I think I haven't worded it clearly: I was continuin your previous example.

Has any one even mentioned all of the women from the HH that were kinda a big deal?

 Matthew wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

Mellon wrote:

When they hit the brickwall of dudebroish boysclub that is the actual GW representation of models. When they realised that they can choose between nuns (SoB) or skin and boob-armor (Wyches) for their representation. And that all the cool models that are fronted are male space marines and male chaos cultists and male imperial guards etc etc. We loose so many new players that way, and it makes me cry and die a little inside every time.

The hobby could gain a lot of new members by having a better representation of women. And I think that is way more important than any in-world canon.

Are you serious? So to play a game you absolutely neeeed to be represented in the models? Okay, where are the skinny teen orks? If the only reason you don't play a game is because you're not 'represented', you're a bit too fragile for miniwargaming.

And where's the fat marines?. Honestly I'm tired of this fat shaming and has driven many players out of the game due to being alieanated due to the lack of representation of fat people.

Yeah, and why isn't Anita Sarkeesian a HLOT already? Come on people, we are better than this!

On a serious note, out of the 4 factions I've played only one has been strictly male. And I'm even adding Sisters of Silence to it! Does this make me trans? No it makes me a person who likes fluff. Orks are fungi. They don't have genders. Tau are fish. Chaos cultiss can be anything. Daemons are genderless.

Tau are closer to cows crossed with Roswell Aliens, actually. Fish don't have hooves, and the Tau originated from a Desert world, iirc.
There are some rare species of fish that could be found in some deserts, but when I think fish I do not think desert.