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Just Tony wrote: But saying every evolved species has a sitcom called "Friends" would definitely be. Assuming every species on every planet in every fiction has bars and people dance to hip hop would most assuredly be.
Oh okay. It's fair, but I don't understand how we switched topic to this.
Peregrine wrote:
Just Tony wrote: Assuming every species on every planet in every fiction has bars and people dance to hip hop would most assuredly be.
I don't really see what your point here is, things like this are near-universal in scifi. I guess you can be annoyed by a common genre element, but what are you really trying to accomplish here?
The point is I'm able to withdraw my personal self away when I read/watch/play something, and don't need this massive influx of my every day into my fiction/programming/games. The beginning of this was how every aspect of the Imperium needs to be an exact representation of OUR time, and it doesn't need to be. It needs to be its own thing. It also needs no explanation as to why ANYTHING shows up. Except for female Space Marines or male Sisters of Battle, as that is addressed already. My going off on that tangent is because several people accused me of essentially lying about being able to apply abstraction to what I ingest intellectually, and they were wrong.
Just for completion, I also do not want to see a female ork line. They're a bioweaponized fungus that doesn't breed..they are what they are and should remain so.
Just Tony wrote: The point is I'm able to withdraw my personal self away when I read/watch/play something, and don't need this massive influx of my every day into my fiction/programming/games. The beginning of this was how every aspect of the Imperium needs to be an exact representation of OUR time, and it doesn't need to be.
So why don't you have any objection to how all-male space marines reflect real-world gender stereotypes? I think the more accurate thing to say here is that you're fine with the everyday existing in your fiction as long as it agrees with your beliefs, but have a problem with it when something disagrees with you.
It also needs no explanation as to why ANYTHING shows up.
That's a terrible way to write fiction. Realism, internal consistency, etc, are important parts of making a good story. Throwing down a bunch of random ideas and handwaiving away all criticism with "I don't need to explain it, it's fiction" is the kind of stuff that low-talent fanfiction writers are limited to, we should have higher standards for (supposed) professional authors like GW employs.
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flamingkillamajig wrote: Really? Did you read the steam reviews? They criticized the game more commonly for becoming buggy and secondly for making a character they described as a Trans Token character. Not a Trans character that is Trans but has other personality points but one that only exists to be Trans. Point being if your only identifier is being gay, straight or trans and you have no other qualities as a human being you are very one dimensional and boring.
And I'm sure it's entirely a coincidence that the character they decided to criticize is one whose primary trait is something associated with their anti-SJW crusade, rather than any of the countless NPCs in virtually every game that are relatively "deep" if they have even a single dimension of character development beyond their combat stats. Just like it was absolutely 100% about ethics in game journalism and purely a coincidence that the crusade only started over an "SJW" target, not the blatant pay-for-reviews system that had been going on for as long as game "journalism" had existed. And I'm sure that the anti-SJW crusaders who embraced gamergate despite previously expressing nothing but contempt for gamers had a genuine change of heart on the issue, and weren't just using the controversy as an opportunity to attack "SJW"s.
Sorry, but gamergate was nothing more than the right-wing outrage machine being awful, there was nothing legitimate at all about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/28 11:21:29
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Except they weren't criticizing the character they said the game was garbage and buggy. Most of the reviews said that but certain journalists pointed to the ones throwing out the transgendered character. But hey go check the steam reviews to see if i'm right. Last i checked i am.
Go on steam and type the game title: Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear.
The negative reviews i see that got the most ratings just talk about bugs rather than any transgender person (only one even mentioned the trans person). Some of the less popular reviews might but they're not getting all the helpful review recommendations. Clearly though it's a good reason for the company to say 'Hey guys we got lots of thumbs down for a trans character so thumbs up our crappy game."
Here's just some excerpts:
Spoiler:
"buggy multiplayer, not recommended until patched"
"Doesn't feel like Baldur's Gate at all.
Linear progression through the game with previous areas becoming unavailable once you pass to the next.
Lazy writing that lends to little roleplaying options.
Bugs, bugs and more bugs."
"the multiplayer is just a mess. a friend and i needed about 1.5h to get a multiplayer game running, just to encounter a bug after the intro dungeon where we lost our keys the moment they where added to the keyring.
here are some of the major bugs we encounterd in multiplayer:
-gear from imported characters just disappeard
-created characters (except the groupleader) all had a mage style starting gear (robe, quarterstaff, ...)
-game constantly crashing while saving while friend of mine was host (host switching "fixed" this bug...)
-unpausing didn't work for client player (workaround - talk to npc..., after restarting this one worked)
-keys disappeard the moment they where added to the keyring
so don't buy if you want to play with friends until patched
singleplayer works well so far..."
"Beamdog: Please fix multiplayer!!!!!!!
I love BG: EE and I am sure I will love this expansion, if I could play it. The multiplayer is literally unplayable at the moment :(.
Please fix..."
"The game in it's current state is really buggy and has broken a few things like mods, and multiplay. Maybe in the future when things get ironed out I'll be able to recommend this expansion."
"I'm a huge fan of the Baldur's Gate franchise and, over the years, have played through the campaigns more times than I can count. That said, I would urge fans of the series to hold off on purchasing this DLC for the moment. Here are a few of the issues I experienced in SoD.
-Attempting to import my protagonist via save file or character import results in him being stripped of all equipment. This gear is permanently lost. (If you have an endgame save from the main campaign this doesn't occur, but I don't have that luxury.)
-Game difficulty settings are broken and can retroactively corrupt save files if you're attempting to play on the highest difficulty.
-Multiplayer is in an unusable state.
-Although I have some minor grievances with the UI updating, there is one particular change I find rather immersion breaking. If you scroll towards the edge of the map, nearly half the screen will be blanketed in darkness. This was not present in previous versions. Here, for example, is one of the earliest conversations in the game. http://imgur.com/hcwj0SC
This is distracting at best and jarring at worst.
-When purchased through Steam, the DLC is accessed in a manner that breaks all mod compatibility. (I normally wouldn't count this against a developer, but this issue is not present in copies sold directly through Beamdog.)
There are other bugs of varying severity but I won't bother mentioning them all. I would advise anyone considering this DLC to wait for an official patch, as all of these issues have been reported and will hopefully be fixed in time. I just don't believe you should pay Beamdog to beta test their product in the interim."
"Game is umplayably buggy in Multiplayer. Over an hour to manage to even open a game in way that every player actually has gear instead of an empty inventory. Game crashes every time I save in multiplayer. Switching hosts the game now refuses to unpause for me. So everytime the game is saved or otherwise paused, I can not unpause until another player talks to an NPC which unpauses the game. Restarting the game fixed it. Continued playing only to discover that the key ring is buggy and any keys added to it just disappear....
Don´t buy this broken mess if you have any intention of playing with friends. Singleplayer seems to work so far."
And here's the kotaku article cherry picking steam reviews.
Interesting how one comment said that gamers were perfectly fine with the gay people in the same game. Must be very specific hate or maybe most of the hate is generated at the bugs as i showed on steam.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2016/11/28 12:58:45
Rakar wrote: I'm all for that, I couldn't agree more. I.G./A.M. Might be all male on planets like Krieg, but elsewhere there'd be mixed regiments and all female regiments. They can do that without ret-conning the fluff and that's the only thing that would annoy me. I don't wanna see a long lost female primarch or male sisters of battle. IG/Eldar/Tau/Dark Eldar/inquistion/admech/skit/GSC all should have female options however.
Eldar/DE are great, because they regularly have female models, like the Howling Banshees and some Farseers. The DE have the model Lelith Hesperax, who is meant to be basically the best fighter in the universe
Inquisition, GSC, IG, Tau, all agree. Tau even have a model with Commander Shadowsun, so just expand on that.
Ad Mech would be weird, since they are all essentially genderless. The resemble Toasters more then Male/Female now days
Adeptus Astartes - Imperial Fists
Blood Angels - Archangels of The Storm
Cult Mechanicus - Agripinaa
Imperial Knights - House Hawkshroud
Astra Militarum - House Hawkshroud Knight Guard
The Tau Empire - Vash'ya Sept
Just Tony wrote: The point is I'm able to withdraw my personal self away when I read/watch/play something, and don't need this massive influx of my every day into my fiction/programming/games. The beginning of this was how every aspect of the Imperium needs to be an exact representation of OUR time, and it doesn't need to be.
So why don't you have any objection to how all-male space marines reflect real-world gender stereotypes? I think the more accurate thing to say here is that you're fine with the everyday existing in your fiction as long as it agrees with your beliefs, but have a problem with it when something disagrees with you.
...
Does it hurt to constantly stoke the flames of hate at all times?
I understand you have personal issues that color pretty much everything you say on here, but you really need to couch the remarks until you know what the feth you're talking about. BOTH examples (all male Space Marines and all female Sisters of Battle) have in-universe explanations as to why they exist, NONE of which are some sort of reinforcement of gender stereotypes. If that were the case, the SOB army's main units would be the Baby Factory and the Kitchen Crew. Now THAT would be reflecting stereotypes. Is that what's happening? Nope. Got a question for you which you probably already know the answer to: how many Special Forces units in the world are fully integrated with both sexes? We both know the answer because of the extremely high physical output necessary for the job. Not saying that there aren't women who can pull that off, but they are most assuredly in the minority, and would probably pursue other careers in the first place. You know, Carol Danvers is probably my favorite Marvel character, and has been for a very long time. I don't have any issue portraying strong women in fiction, in fact I relish it. However, if it's something along the lines of establishing parameters or "rules" within the fiction, I'm fine if they don't. Once again, I wouldn't insist on male Amazons for equality's sake, and I don't understand why some people aren't satisfied until any all male anything is integrated. Real world, I understand it. Fictional work? ESPECIALLY fictional work you could just refuse to buy to show your disdain? Nope, don't understand that at all.
It also needs no explanation as to why ANYTHING shows up.
That's a terrible way to write fiction. Realism, internal consistency, etc, are important parts of making a good story. Throwing down a bunch of random ideas and handwaiving away all criticism with "I don't need to explain it, it's fiction" is the kind of stuff that low-talent fanfiction writers are limited to, we should have higher standards for (supposed) professional authors like GW employs.
Now this one I should have footnoted. I am a Transformers fan, and right now there is a HUGE thing going on about female Cybertronians, mainly because the current comic universe was started under the premise of monogender and new writers decided that must be changed. If you are an old fossil like me, you'd remember Challenge of the Gobots. Female Gobots were commonplace, and no explanation was made or asked for. They also didn't do the whole Roboboobs thing which really pisses me off. I liken that to them walking around drinking Red Cyberbull energon drinks out of juice boxes. THAT is what I meant by not turning something into a detailed explanation fest. Just have something there and don't feel the need to justify your decision. Unless you're going to counter 25+ years of continuity by introducing female Space Marines. Nobody can wave their had THAT much.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Really? Did you read the steam reviews? They criticized the game more commonly for becoming buggy and secondly for making a character they described as a Trans Token character. Not a Trans character that is Trans but has other personality points but one that only exists to be Trans. Point being if your only identifier is being gay, straight or trans and you have no other qualities as a human being you are very one dimensional and boring.
And I'm sure it's entirely a coincidence that the character they decided to criticize is one whose primary trait is something associated with their anti-SJW crusade, rather than any of the countless NPCs in virtually every game that are relatively "deep" if they have even a single dimension of character development beyond their combat stats. Just like it was absolutely 100% about ethics in game journalism and purely a coincidence that the crusade only started over an "SJW" target, not the blatant pay-for-reviews system that had been going on for as long as game "journalism" had existed. And I'm sure that the anti-SJW crusaders who embraced gamergate despite previously expressing nothing but contempt for gamers had a genuine change of heart on the issue, and weren't just using the controversy as an opportunity to attack "SJW"s.
Sorry, but gamergate was nothing more than the right-wing outrage machine being awful, there was nothing legitimate at all about it.
You DO realize that not everything is an attack on your group, and that the world isn't trying to obliterate you? I can't stress that enough.
TheoreticalFish wrote: Eldar/DE are great, because they regularly have female models, like the Howling Banshees and some Farseers.
I don't think there ever was a female farseer model. Only in Dawn of War…
Just Tony wrote: Does it hurt to constantly stoke the flames of hate at all times?
The flames of hate? I think you went quite a bit hyperbolic here, no?
I mean, I know hyperbole is the BEST THING EVER§§§, but come on.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Lusall wrote: If by Imperium, you mean the Administratum? They don't give two effs if you're male or female. You're life is a currency and they'll spend it all the same. Male, female, or whatever.
But there are surely worlds that are backwards AF and others where females rule and everything in between.
Why is female supremacy ok and male supremacy "backwards AF"? They're either both backwards for their lack of equality or they both have merit.
dude. I'm sorry my word use got you all antsy in your pants.
I wasn't giving merit to one over the other. I was literally giving the point that the Imperium has worlds all over the spectrum. Not just including worlds where men rule or women rule.
But how's this? One's "backwards" because that refers to a society that was that we now consider repugnant. For example, modern Saudi Arabia is considered "backwards" in its treatment of women because that's how things were done "back in the day". It's barbaric.
Name me a major society where females ruled over men.
Back to the main point? No, females can't be space marines. No, the Imperium doesn't care about penises or vaginas in the end. Whatever fills out the ranks.
Just Tony wrote: I understand you have personal issues that color pretty much everything you say on here, but you really need to couch the remarks until you know what the feth you're talking about.
And I understand you don't think that rule #1 applies to people you don't like, but you need to follow it anyway.
BOTH examples (all male Space Marines and all female Sisters of Battle) have in-universe explanations as to why they exist, NONE of which are some sort of reinforcement of gender stereotypes.
I said marines reflect gender stereotypes and said nothing about SoB, so I don't know where your "baby factor" idea is coming from. And marines very clearly do reflect gender stereotypes about manly strength, courage, honor, etc. Remember that stereotypes are not necessarily negative qualities.
Also, aside from gender stereotypes, GWconstantly references real-world things in 40k's fluff. That's why we have stuff like Margaret Thatcher leading a mob of rioting British soccer fans against the Rainbow Warriors space marine chapter, while Rambo and the cast of every 80s Vietnam war movie sneak around in the background. If you want a setting where real-world references don't exist then 40k is not the game for you.
Got a question for you which you probably already know the answer to: how many Special Forces units in the world are fully integrated with both sexes? We both know the answer because of the extremely high physical output necessary for the job. Not saying that there aren't women who can pull that off, but they are most assuredly in the minority, and would probably pursue other careers in the first place.
I don't see the relevance of this given that space marines are not human and therefore have nothing to do with strength differences between male and female humans.
Once again, I wouldn't insist on male Amazons for equality's sake, and I don't understand why some people aren't satisfied until any all male anything is integrated. Real world, I understand it. Fictional work? ESPECIALLY fictional work you could just refuse to buy to show your disdain? Nope, don't understand that at all.
And one could have an equal lack of understanding about why people aren't satisfied unless there are male-only things. After all, they could just refuse to buy to show their disdain, so why do people insist on having male-only space marines?
Unless you're going to counter 25+ years of continuity by introducing female Space Marines. Nobody can wave their had THAT much.
Conveniently this is exactly what GW did with the Necron fluff. They deleted almost the entire existing fluff and replaced it with a new story that had only superficial similarities in some of the unit names. If anything making female space marines would be less of a change than some of GW's other fluff revisions.
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flamingkillamajig wrote: Except they weren't criticizing the character they said the game was garbage and buggy.
Err, lol? You do realize that we have quotes of your previous words, right? Where you clearly stated that they did criticize the character, and justified their reasons for doing so?
They criticized the game more commonly for becoming buggy and secondly for making a character they described as a Trans Token character.
-You, in a previous post
If you're going to respond to criticism by pretending you never said the thing being criticized then I don't see much of a productive discussion remaining here.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/28 21:23:26
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Diggaz were oomies that had degenerated and looked up to orkses (they were the descendants of the original imperial survey team). They weren't orkses in and of themselves. So since humans have male and female so do the diggaz.
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
TheoreticalFish wrote: Eldar/DE are great, because they regularly have female models, like the Howling Banshees and some Farseers.
I don't think there ever was a female farseer model. Only in Dawn of War…
Just Tony wrote: Does it hurt to constantly stoke the flames of hate at all times?
The flames of hate? I think you went quite a bit hyperbolic here, no?
I mean, I know hyperbole is the BEST THING EVER§§§, but come on.
You're right, I should have said run the crock-pot of hate. I'll be more reserved next time.
And as far as no female Farseer model goes, I thought there was one that was a Necromunda fig? I ordered it through a friend and ran it as my Farseer since Bullwinkle was the second worst Eldar model ever made. Possible she could have been a Warlock, but I could have sworn she was a Farseer. Oh well, I ran her as one at least.
How many people would have made the Thatcher comparison without it being pointed out? That's one. The Dirty Dozen and Rambo aren't models I run at all, nor would own specifically because of the references. That's two. I stopped buying cocdices in 5th, as the game had gotten to the point that I was no longer motivated to even play, so no knowledge of however they retconned away the Necron fluff. That's three. Space Marines ARE an elite Special Forces type army, so a comparison is totally valid. That's four. Once they retcon female Marines in the fluff, I will never argue against them as it will be official. UNTIL that happens, I will defend the fluff as it stands. That's five. AND I didn't violate rule #1 with any of this.
WAY on topic now: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GW, release an accessory frame for the IG sprues that will give people the ability to make female Guardspersons, and put out plastic kits with female Commisars and any other Imperial allies. Chase that with accessory sprues for every other race that may have a female variant. Please do this, so we can maybe move past this whole discussion.
Until the demand for female Marines dominates every thread, that is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/29 00:48:21
Got a question for you which you probably already know the answer to: how many Special Forces units in the world are fully integrated with both sexes? We both know the answer because of the extremely high physical output necessary for the job. Not saying that there aren't women who can pull that off, but they are most assuredly in the minority, and would probably pursue other careers in the first place.
I don't see the relevance of this given that space marines are not human and therefore have nothing to do with strength differences between male and female humans.
Space Marines start off as human, which is what makes it relevant. What they start off as matters. It's the same reason why they prefer to start with young candidates and why they prefer to start with physically fit candidates.
----------------------------------------------
I personally think the Imperium should be somewhat sexist. GW isn't consistent about how women are portrayed in the Imperium, and the fans are free to interpret it however they want, but I feel the Imperium works better as a sexist faction. The Imperium is supposed to be backwards. It's supposed to represent the future regressing. What portrays that better than clinging to gender roles 40,000 years in the future? I think there's some substance to the High Lords of Terra traditionally being portrayed as all white men. The Imperium works best as a faction if it's racist and sexist and exclusive. The future is supposed to be grimdark.
If people want a faction that's not sexist, they can play Eldar. Or if they want to play an Imperial faction that still represents women, they always have the Sisters of Battle.
And they give that up to become marines. They are no longer human.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/29 02:48:08
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
No I didn't. I didn't quote the entirety of your long-ass post because I fething hate quote pyramids.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/29 02:51:26
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
LoneLictor wrote: I personally think the Imperium should be somewhat sexist.
I disagree. I think the Imperium needs to be callously uncaring about these kinds of things.
This; I feel the Imperium as a whole doesn't have the time to uphold any foreign policy or general views other than the teachings of the Ecclisiarchy and the rightfully footed xenophobia and fear of heresy it has.
No I didn't. I didn't quote the entirety of your long-ass post because I fething hate quote pyramids.
You clearly did ignore everything else I wrote though. I explained that it matters what Space Marines start out as. You ignored that explanation and included that one sentence, just so you could make the pedantic point that they aren't human anymore, which is something I already acknowledged.
If the base human that Space Marines start as didn't matter, Space Marines would recruit old people just as much as young people, and they would recruit sick people just as much as healthy people. But, it's been established that the base human used to make the Space Marine does matter.
LoneLictor wrote: You clearly did ignore everything else I wrote though. I explained that it matters what Space Marines start out as.
Just because I disagree with your logic doesn't mean I didn't read it. Your explanation is insufficient. Whatever humanity the initiate had before, they gave up in becoming Adeptus Astartes. In fact, the initiates give up their humanity as children, long before they even really get a chance to learn what it is to be human.
Furthermore, stop dragging this thread off topic on to Space Marines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/29 02:58:47
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
LoneLictor wrote: You clearly did ignore everything else I wrote though. I explained that it matters what Space Marines start out as.
Just because I disagree with your logic doesn't mean I didn't read it. Your explanation is insufficient. Whatever humanity the initiate had before, they gave up in becoming Adeptus Astartes. In fact, the initiates give up their humanity as children, long before they even really get a chance to learn what it is to be human.
If you were building super soldiers, and you required a human base, wouldn't you prefer a human base that has more testosterone and is naturally more inclined towards physical strength? Maybe if there was a shortage of humans, both men and women would be recruited. But as long as Chapters are free to be picky, they're going to pick the applicants with the most testosterone. Space Marines don't recruit women for the same reason they don't recruit sick people.
Furthermore, stop dragging this thread off topic on to Space Marines.
That's a cheap way to win an argument.
Space Marines are part of the Imperium. We're arguing about women in Space Marines - i.e. women in the Imperium. This isn't offtopic.
LoneLictor wrote: You clearly did ignore everything else I wrote though. I explained that it matters what Space Marines start out as.
Just because I disagree with your logic doesn't mean I didn't read it. Your explanation is insufficient. Whatever humanity the initiate had before, they gave up in becoming Adeptus Astartes. In fact, the initiates give up their humanity as children, long before they even really get a chance to learn what it is to be human.
If you were building super soldiers, and you required a human base, wouldn't you prefer a human base that has more testosterone and is naturally more inclined towards physical strength? Maybe if there was a shortage of humans, both men and women would be recruited. But as long as Chapters are free to be picky, they're going to pick the applicants with the most testosterone. Space Marines don't recruit women for the same reason they don't recruit sick people.
If I were building super soldiers whose implanted organs modify and replace the base human's hormones (which they do for Space Marines, among many other things), it wouldn't matter HOW much testosterone my base human has - the implant will force the target to produce as much of that hormone as needed.
It is the purity of the implantation target that is important, not their existing musculature/hormone levels - those come from the implants themselves.
Increasing the pool of potential candidates (with sufficient genetic and phenotypical purity) twofold through recruitment from females seems a worthwhile strategy.
Avoiding the sick has to do with the ability to survive the implantation process - wasting implants on targets that won't survive the implantation process is an exercise in futility.
LoneLictor wrote: You clearly did ignore everything else I wrote though. I explained that it matters what Space Marines start out as.
Just because I disagree with your logic doesn't mean I didn't read it. Your explanation is insufficient. Whatever humanity the initiate had before, they gave up in becoming Adeptus Astartes. In fact, the initiates give up their humanity as children, long before they even really get a chance to learn what it is to be human.
If you were building super soldiers, and you required a human base, wouldn't you prefer a human base that has more testosterone and is naturally more inclined towards physical strength? Maybe if there was a shortage of humans, both men and women would be recruited. But as long as Chapters are free to be picky, they're going to pick the applicants with the most testosterone. Space Marines don't recruit women for the same reason they don't recruit sick people.
If I were building super soldiers whose implanted organs modify and replace the base human's hormones (which they do for Space Marines, among many other things), it wouldn't matter HOW much testosterone my base human has - the implant will force the target to produce as much of that hormone as needed.
It is the purity of the implantation target that is important, not their existing musculature/hormone levels - those come from the implants themselves.
Increasing the pool of potential candidates (with sufficient genetic and phenotypical purity) twofold through recruitment from females seems a worthwhile strategy.
Avoiding the sick has to do with the ability to survive the implantation process - wasting implants on targets that won't survive the implantation process is an exercise in futility.
Let me put it this way:
You want to make the strongest person alive, so you're going to give them large amounts of hormones and steroids and training.
While the hormones and steroids and training will be doing most of the work, a male with those resources will be stronger than a female with those resources. Space Marines are free to be picky, and as long as they're free to be picky, it's pragmatic to prefer males, even if being male only makes a small difference. The pool of potential candidates is large enough as is. The chief limit on recruitment is geneseeds, not the potential amount of applicants.
Males are biologically stronger. Space Marines are supposed to be strong. It shouldn't be viewed as offensive or wrong that soldiers that are supposed to be strong prefer to recruit from the gender that is stronger. Nobody wants to be sexist, and I think that's influencing people's opinions on this topic, but we're not actually discussing which gender is better (neither one is) or which gender is worth more (neither one is). We're discussing pure physical differences. Men are better are fighting. Women are better at lactating. Both genders can do it, but one is definitively better than the other.
You want to make the strongest person alive, so you're going to give them large amounts of hormones and steroids and training.
Not really. Hormones interact in certain ways in certain amounts. Balance, control, and regulation of hormones are key to health and growth, not massive amounts.
What makes a Space Marine superhuman is not the level of testosterone flowing through his veins when he was a boy of 13 - instead, it would be the the adjusted hormones of various types that flow through his veins AFTER he is implanted with the geneseed and various organs inherent to the process.
Space Marine implants do a lot of things, but among the most important are the regulation of hormones which set off other aspects of the Aspirant's growth, including but not limited to skeletal hardening/modification, muscle growth, and the like. Because those implants control those functions, the baseline human they are placed in need not begin the process with high amounts of muscles - the process itself performs that feat, and does so in ways infinitely better than any natural hormone-infused state the baseline human could have.
While the hormones and steroids and training will be doing most of the work, a male with those resources will be stronger than a female with those resources. Space Marines are free to be picky, and as long as they're free to be picky, it's pragmatic to prefer males, even if being male only makes a small difference. The pool of potential candidates is large enough as is. The chief limit on recruitment is geneseeds, not the potential amount of applicants.
Biologically, males are females with different hormones applied to them from birth due to the activation of the Y chromosome, which results in different physiological consequences.
The problem with your reasoning is that the process of Space Marine implantation and development is a far more substantial alteration of the subject's body than the male/female differentiation, to the point that it would make practically NO DIFFERENCE that I could imagine if you start with a prepubescent male or female human - the vast, vast majority of development into Space Marine physiology is done by the IMPLANTS and external machinations, not by the human host's natural hormones.
And the wider the pool, the better - geneseed is absolutely a limiting factor, but it is certainly not the only one, and arguably not even the chief one: instead, it is the impurity of the subject of the implants, and the consequent rejection of that human body of the implants and geneseed, that limit and stop the development of a Space Marine.
Double the pool, double the chance you can find the purity necessary to successfully implant.
Males are biologically stronger. Space Marines are supposed to be strong. It shouldn't be viewed as offensive or wrong that soldiers that are supposed to be strong prefer to recruit from the gender that is stronger. Nobody wants to be sexist, and I think that's influencing people's opinions on this topic, but we're not actually discussing which gender is better (neither one is) or which gender is worth more (neither one is). We're discussing pure physical differences. Men are better are fighting. Women are better at lactating. Both genders can do it, but one is definitively better than the other.
Space Marines are neither men nor women, they are superhuman monstrosities that develop from a human host through arcane science and strict external control. The end result of the development of Space Marine physiology would be no different if you started with a 13 year old female than it would if you started with a 13 year old male - either will stand at over 7 feet tall, have ceramic-infused bones, develop "fused" overlapping plates for ribs, have incredibly overdeveloped musculature, have acid-spit, be able to eat enemies and learn their memories, and a wide variety of other effects.
Given the lack of a physical disparity post-development, a female Space Marine would be no less capable of training to fight, to kill, to rip, to tear, and to otherwise PURGE THE ENEMIES OF THE EMPEROR than a male Space Marine.
At best, the only time the gender of the host would make a difference to the process is if males were better able to handle pain (which, if memory serves, is actually the opposite of the truth - women are better at dealing with pain) or were less likely to die as a result of surgery (don't know if there actually is a difference there, haven't done the research) or implant rejection (don't know that either).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/29 09:27:56
Talking about how males make better space marine starting points than females because of physical differences is absurd. Space marines are not human. They are so thoroughly distorted beyond the human body that any resemblance is superficial at best. And the process is blatantly "a space wizard did it". You could just as easily say that a female body makes the best starting point because it isn't burdened with the pathetic Y chromosome and its sad joke of strength-producing hormones. Much like a painter starts from a plain canvas instead of one already splattered with mud and last night's dinner the geneseed process works best with a Y-free body where the strength of the primarchs can be expressed in its purest form.
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LoneLictor wrote: You want to make the strongest person alive, so you're going to give them large amounts of hormones and steroids and training.
No, I want to make the smartest person alive. Physical strength is probably the least useful of a space marine's attributes. The whole point of power armor is that it doesn't matter how strong the person wearing it is, all they are doing is sending control signals to the armor. You don't need to be an olympic-level weightlifter to press the "crush that tank with a single punch" button.
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Just Tony wrote: How many people would have made the Thatcher comparison without it being pointed out?
It was pretty common knowledge in the earlier days of GW, when they weren't at all subtle about the fact that 40k was a mix of various political/pop culture/Tolkien parodies.
I stopped buying cocdices in 5th, as the game had gotten to the point that I was no longer motivated to even play, so no knowledge of however they retconned away the Necron fluff.
Honestly, if you've stopped paying attention to 40k's fluff so throughly that you don't even know about the Necron retcon why are you posting about 40k fluff issues?
Once they retcon female Marines in the fluff, I will never argue against them as it will be official. UNTIL that happens, I will defend the fluff as it stands. That's five.
Do you really think this is a good argument? "I will defend GW's canon version of the fluff simply because it is GW's canon version, and accept whatever changes they wish to make"? What is the point of having a discussion of fluff opinions at all if your entire opinion is "nobody should ask for changes to anything"?
AND I didn't violate rule #1 with any of this.
Accusing me of having personal issues, stoking the flames of hate, etc, sure seems to be doing a pretty good job of breaking rule #1.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/29 09:47:18
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
LoneLictor wrote: For the first time, I understand why conservatives use the phrase, "political correctness gone mad".
Fine. I concede that Space Marines are not supposed to be physically strong, testosterone doesn't affect strength, and that GW only portrays Space Marines as men because they're a bunch of sexist meanies.
Space Marines do become very strong (I'd even agree that they need to be to some extent, though Power Armor does a great deal of the work), but not because their 13 year old hosts happened to have a lot of testosterone flowing - they are strong because they receive implants which flood the human host with a multitude of new and old hormones (yes, potentially including testosterone, but almost certainly other/unique hormones as well) that rebuild the body's skeletal framework and musculature into 7 foot tall monstrosities of super-dense muscle and ceramic-hardened bone.
Testosterone affects human strength to a certain degree, but its presence (or comparative lack thereof - remember, girls ALSO have testosterone, they just don't produce as much of it naturally as boys do) in the human host before implantation are effectively meaningless factors - all the musculature that makes a Space Marine a Space Marine are the result of the Implant-regulated and Implant-produced hormones working to rebuild the human host of said implants from the ground up, and there is no reason to presume that a female host would somehow hinder those Implants in producing the quantities necessary to rebuild her body into a Space Marine's.
Honestly, a space marine female would almost certainly be absolutely indistinguishable from a male space marine unless you checked their "plumbing" explicitly. The skeletal structure would be neither female nor male - it would be Space Marine. The musculature would be neither female nor male, it would be Space Marine. The breast fat deposits would be neither female nor male - they would be Space Marine.
Peregrine wrote: Talking about how males make better space marine starting points than females because of physical differences is absurd. Space marines are not human.
Space marines are made from humans. Conflating the end product with the raw material is a mistake. A better analogy would be if you want to make a good sword, you can start with iron or bronze. If a pure human is pure iron, than a marine is an alloy- a mix of the base material and additions to create something stronger and superior to the original material.
Peregrine wrote: And the process is blatantly "a space wizard did it". You could just as easily say that a female body makes the best starting point because it isn't burdened with the pathetic Y chromosome and its sad joke of strength-producing hormones. Much like a painter starts from a plain canvas instead of one already splattered with mud and last night's dinner the geneseed process works best with a Y-free body where the strength of the primarchs can be expressed in its purest form.
You could, but then you'd be falling back on an in universe rational to justify why marines were all of one gender. Which is exactly what currently exists. Which I thought wasn't ok with you?
Peregrine wrote: The whole point of power armor is that it doesn't matter how strong the person wearing it is, all they are doing is sending control signals to the armor. You don't need to be an olympic-level weightlifter to press the "crush that tank with a single punch" button.
I was always under the impression that marine armour enhanced their strength. If the physical strength of the wearer is irrelevant, all that muscle on a marine becomes additional weight to haul, size to hit and a massive energy drain.
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