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Surely the lack of representation of women in 40k is largely due to their (by and large) lack of interest in wargaming and the 40k universe? I think we may be overthinking this one..

Ahh, when social issues and nerd culture collide. It always ends well!

Women in the Imperium can range from highly powerful matriarchs to "breeders" and everything in between. Though, some sources imply misogyny is still very much a thing in M41 which makes thematic sense. The Imperium is supposed to be a totalitarian evil regime based on 14-17th century Europe.

Personally, I would suggest that the lack of representation is simply because the writers are putting very little thought in to it and just go with the first "cool" idea that enters their heads and, since they are almost all men (I think I found two women credited on black library when I checked a couple years ago-- one of them an editor, and the other an assistant editor who was the wife of one of the writers, but there may be actual women writers on staff instead of just editors by now), by default they make male characters because that's what they know how to write.

 Melissia wrote:
Personally, I would suggest that the lack of representation is simply because the writers are putting very little thought in to it and just go with the first "cool" idea that enters their heads and, since they are almost all men (I think I found two women credited on black library when I checked a couple years ago-- one of them an editor, and the other an assistant editor who was the wife of one of the writers, but there may be actual women writers on staff instead of just editors by now), by default they make male characters because that's what they know how to write.

That could be possible, however I wouldn't say you necessarily have to be the same gender as a character you're writing to make them good, or to consider them in the first place.

I do think that it was just the first thing they envisioned though; whether that correlates with their sex or not is up for discussion.

 Melissia wrote:
Personally, I would suggest that the lack of representation is simply because the writers are putting very little thought in to it and just go with the first "cool" idea that enters their heads

I'd wager it was purely a copy/paste issue. FB started by copying a bunch of other sources (Tolkien, some history books and others) where women weren't presented as soldiers. It established the FB world as a world of male warriors. 40k was then just that world, re imagined in space with space orc(k)s, space elves and space dwarves.

The flaws were in the original source, so to speak and it's only now people are starting to correct them.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Personally, I would suggest that the lack of representation is simply because the writers are putting very little thought in to it and just go with the first "cool" idea that enters their heads and, since they are almost all men (I think I found two women credited on black library when I checked a couple years ago-- one of them an editor, and the other an assistant editor who was the wife of one of the writers, but there may be actual women writers on staff instead of just editors by now), by default they make male characters because that's what they know how to write.

That could be possible, however I wouldn't say you necessarily have to be the same gender as a character you're writing to make them good, or to consider them in the first place.

I didn't say that first part. I said they didn't even bother to think about women characters in the first place, so they never made many of them.

 Melissia wrote:

I didn't say that first part. I said they didn't even bother to think about women characters in the first place, so they never made many of them.

Which I believe is correct. I'm just not sure whether it boils down to the fact that they were all male, or whether other factors were involved. I think they just went with males in most areas without any malicious or deliberate intent.

Then again, the argument could be made that they did consider it, and to them, the idea of females in certain areas (i.e. Space Marines) didn't fit with their vision. Also a possible outcome for why Space Marines are all male.

I could delve into possibilities from my psychological knowledge, but I think attempting to explain reasons why the lore was written the way it was in terms of cognitive processing would be both flawed and a bit unfair when I don't know a thing about the writers behind those snippets of 40k.

A woman's role in the imperium would be vastly different depending on which world she hails from. From a male-dominated feudal world, obviously it would be some horrible caricature of a housewife. From a planet that upholds a matriarchy, they would be in charge.

Aside from the SoBs and Space Marines, there doesn't seem to be any gender specific requirements for any of the other organizations (with a soft exception of the Callidus, but I remember some obscure fluff mentioning that there are male Callidus assassins, just that the polymorphine works better with a female physiology). The only one that really cares is the Imperial Guard, and then they only care because the segregate regiments so that "fraternization" doesn't become a commonplace distraction (and even then there are exceptions, like Cain's regiment).

It largely depends on where somebody hails from in the Imperium. But in most areas, Imperial society tends to be male-dominated in nature, either because of culture or practical considerations.

One of best HH characters: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Koriel_Zeth

 General Annoyance wrote:
I think they just went with males in most areas without any malicious or deliberate intent.

That's also what I'm saying-- unconscious bias, not a deliberate decision. And people attempting to use this when, it wasn't actually a conscious decision, in order to make judgments about the lore is kinda silly to me.

Gotcha. Apologies, I misinterpreted your statement as suggesting they came up with it because they're male rather than it being just the first thing that sprang to mind.

 Lusall wrote:

 Rakar wrote:

 Lusall wrote:
If by Imperium, you mean the Administratum? They don't give two effs if you're male or female. You're life is a currency and they'll spend it all the same. Male, female, or whatever.

But there are surely worlds that are backwards AF and others where females rule and everything in between.

Why is female supremacy ok and male supremacy "backwards AF"? They're either both backwards for their lack of equality or they both have merit.

dude. I'm sorry my word use got you all antsy in your pants.

I wasn't giving merit to one over the other. I was literally giving the point that the Imperium has worlds all over the spectrum. Not just including worlds where men rule or women rule.

But how's this? One's "backwards" because that refers to a society that was that we now consider repugnant. For example, modern Saudi Arabia is considered "backwards" in its treatment of women because that's how things were done "back in the day". It's barbaric.
Name me a major society where females ruled over men.

Back to the main point? No, females can't be space marines. No, the Imperium doesn't care about penises or vaginas in the end. Whatever fills out the ranks.

By putting a value judgement on one and not the other you absolutely gave merit to your preferred sexist society. Yes Saudi Arabia is backwards, but any society that discriminates and oppresses based on genitalia is repugnant, no matter which sex dominates. You are hypocritical if you see the oppression of males as enlightened and the oppression of females as evil. You are being a sexist. Matriarchal societies have and do exist, though they've been far less prevalent, that does not make them superior. One could also argue they are on the rise in the west. Any society that values or devalues people based on their sex or skin color is objectively sexist or rascist and that is wrong. If you think matriachy is superior-defend it. If you mis-spoke own up to it rather than slinging sarcastic insults. Furthermore, if you'd bothered to read my posts, I was fully in support of female guardsmen.

So if you want to claim that saying a male-oppression society in fiction is better and more interesting is sexist, are you also also willing to admit that the bias towards female-oppression in literature is, itself, a direct result of sexism?

 Melissia wrote:
So if you want to claim that saying a male-oppression society in fiction is better and more interesting is sexist, are you also also willing to admit that the bias towards female-oppression in literature is, itself, a direct result of sexism?

Is this a question about a claim relating to subjective preference that proves real world attitudes?

Have I got that right?

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


It largely depends on where somebody hails from in the Imperium. But in most areas, Imperial society tends to be male-dominated in nature, either because of culture or practical considerations.

And this is stated where in the 40k fluff? There are a million or more worlds in the Imperium and how many have any kind of examination about their social and culture?

The game fluff has lightly explored some of the Space Marine recruiting worlds and a few others that spawned notable Imperial Guard regiments. The Black library authors who can on occasion move beyond Space Marines have done much more and the worlds they have described have been extremely variable from worlds that are quite similar to our own to strange and unusual ones.

There is no reason why one sex or other is in power - Imperial institutions simply don't care - including the most powerful ones - the Inquisition, the Ad Mech etc.

Indeed. The AdMech sees itself as beyond such things as rubbing genitals together. The Inquisition has more importnat things to worry about. The Imperial Guard only cares insofar as it uses single-gendered regiments more often because it limits pregnancy problems, genitals are not commonly used in the operation of lasguns after all. The Administratum fetishes paperwork far more than the human body. And so on. Really, the only places where the Imperium has well-defined examples of institutionalized sexism is in the Sororitas and Astartes.

Of course you could argue that this is just because GW does not want to confront that topic in its power fantasy wargame and attached lore bits and novels. Which, fair enough... but that still means there's no real evidence that male domination is a majority, or even at all that prevalent.

 Kojiro wrote:
Have I got that right?

I don't see how my question was confusing.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
Have I got that right?

I don't see how my question was confusing.

I didn't say it was confusing, I asked if my summary was correct. Would you care to confirm that, or if not perhaps attempt to clarify?

 Kojiro wrote:
Would you care to confirm that, or if not perhaps attempt to clarify?

The person I was responding to was suggesting that it was sexist for someone to prefer it when writers write societies where females dominate.

My response was to suggest via rhetorical question that if it is sexist to prefer settings where males submit to females, then logically speaking it's equally so to prefer settings where females submit to males. And this would mean that fiction writers, on average, are rather sexist.

I assume that Sisters of Silence are in fact all Sisters?

So the only gender specific organisations in the Imperium:

Astartes: Male
Custodes: Male (I assume)

Adepta Sororitas: female
Sisters of Silence; Female (again I assume)

I concern myself with 40k, not 30k.

 Melissia wrote:
I concern myself with 40k, not 30k.

Ah but are not both now in 40K?

... I will continue to pretend they aren't as long as I fething can, goddamnit.

Stupid horus heresy bleeding over in to the good part of the setting...

Melissia, do you have a particular dislike for Custodes and Sisters of Silence, beside just the fact that they come from 30k?

Nope.

In my opinion the role of women in 40k society is balanced, in nearly all races (excluding orks, who have no gender). In the Horus Heresy books, there are female remembrancers, pilots and soldiers. The stereotype that women do not fight is not seen anywhere, as female space marine serfs that are forced to fight seem just as willing to do so, and that's not to mention races like the Tau, where female Fire Caste members fight along men and the Eldar where women are seen more often then men. It seems like sexism is no real issue in the 41st millennium.

Now, that excludes both the Space Marine and SoB factions, as both of these are not single race but a small part of one. I understand that only men can be Space Marines, and that only women can be Battle Sisters, as the genetic upgrades were made with one gender in mind. I also think that adding female space marines into the fluff would be like changing Manchester United's name to Chelsea: there not the same thing. That's not to say that women can't wear space marine armour, or use SM weapons, so you could TECHNICALLY have female space marine models, and I bet that more then one Slaanesh worshipper has magically changed their gender, but those aren't "real" Space Marines, and so shouldn't be catagorized as such.

Hope you got what I was saying

Ember

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
In my opinion the role of women in 40k society is balanced, in nearly all races (excluding orks, who have no gender). In the Horus Heresy books, there are female remembrancers, pilots and soldiers. The stereotype that women do not fight is not seen anywhere, as female space marine serfs that are forced to fight seem just as willing to do so, and that's not to mention races like the Tau, where female Fire Caste members fight along men and the Eldar where women are seen more often then men. It seems like sexism is no real issue in the 41st millennium.
Ember

Yep - in the novels and fluff - then look at the table top models and try and find the models you describe......

 Mr Morden wrote:


Yep - in the novels and fluff - then look at the table top models and try and find the models you describe......

We should consider that the thread is about Women in the Imperium, not Women in the Imperium on the Tabletop, although you are of course correct that representation is lacking in the latter.