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Ok, I am just curious what women's role in the imperium is, as I heard they were equal, but then heard that ( at least on Krieg) they're purpose is make bodies, and the men die in some of the worst conditions. So, what does the Imperium think of women. I do not wished anything to be changed for 'equality' simply wondering what the Imperium's views on women are.

The Imperium consists of a million worlds. On every single one of these million worlds the role of women will be different. So to your question there are a million different answers. It is too broad to answer.

If by Imperium, you mean the Administratum? They don't give two effs if you're male or female. You're life is a currency and they'll spend it all the same. Male, female, or whatever.

But there are surely worlds that are backwards AF and others where females rule and everything in between.

CommanderRednaxela wrote:
Ok, I am just curious what women's role in the imperium is, as I heard they were equal, but then heard that ( at least on Krieg) they're purpose is make bodies, and the men die in some of the worst conditions. So, what does the Imperium think of women. I do not wished anything to be changed for 'equality' simply wondering what the Imperium's views on women are.

Its 40k - it depends

Its unlikely that the Imperium as a whole or even the major organisations think about men or women in that sense, there are areas that are designated for one sex or another but these are normally highly specalised and/or cultural - eg the Asartes and the Sororitas. many kinght worlds have men only piloting the Knights (but not all)

People in pretty much all branches of the imperium can be men or women.

Isn't the big boss of the Sisters of Battle part of the HLoT?

Yes.. The senior sister can hold a HLOT slot.

But not a permanent slot like the high fabricator, adminstation and Navy command.

And inquisition is equal opportunities...
Nothing stopping the inquisition having a female high lord.

Inquisition, if you got skills, brains and luck you can avhive anything.

Thank-you. 40k, always so much lore.

To the Imperium in general they're just as worthless expendable as men, then that varies with the culture of each and every planet.

If you look for inspiration, just look through different time-lines and cultures/societis of history of Earth and every situation might and would be presented somewhere in the Imperium.

Be it a culture where women are revered as life-givers or demi-gods, or where women are the ruling class, through modern (more or less equal) societies or to less fortunate situations like medieval Europe or a Sharia law forced in muslim counties...

There might be different representations of every said situation and like has been already said, million worlds, million different situations.

Hope it helps...

As far as upper echelons go, I see no reason women can't hold positions of power in the HLOT.

As far as all the positions go, only the Captain-General of the Custodes is essential to be male, and the Abbess of the Sisters of Battle has to be female. Regarding all the others, I don't see any lore stating that they aren't able to be held by women, even though they have masculine titles (which could probably be switched for the female equivalent).

At the start of 'The Beast Arises', 3 of the HLoT are female.
In the fluff there are all-female Guard regiments, as well as mixed ones.

An important bit of information here is that Games Workshop fluff have been written almost exlusively by men. Regular geeky slightly misogynist brittish men. They have made a product that has mostly been marketed towards men and boys. They started more than a generation ago and builds on a tradition of conservative gender roles in fantasy/sci-fi.

The models available and the fluff reflects this. Count the number of female models available, and compare what percentage of them have versions of boob armor...

Lately GW have started sorting this out a bit. For example by claiming that women are common in the imperial guard and by including more female characters in books. But they still have a _looong_ way to go. (And I'm not even sure they want to, because demographics...)

So feel free to help GW along to take the 41st millennium into the equality standards of the 2nd ;-)

Please, DON'T make out of this another "GW are misogynist/racist/whateveristifeelwouldgo and it needs more diversity" thread. It rarely makes any good and usually ends up locked.

Thank you.

 Hawky wrote:
Please, DON'T make out of this another "GW are misogynist/racist/whateveristifeelwouldgo and it needs more diversity" thread. It rarely makes any good and usually ends up locked.

Thank you.

But it's all truuuue :-D

But seriously, I think it is useful to give the OP a bit of background to why the 40k universe can seem a bit... confused on how it depicts women. That it varies quite a lot over time and between mediums. That women are more common in the RPGs and the (non-spacemarine) books than among actual models is a good example of such an incongruency.

I agree with you, but we have to be careful, because too "zealous" discussion might start (another) flame war

I'm pretty sure women have always been in the guard. Even in the early codex Imperial guard, they make mention of it.

Regardless...as many have said before. The Imperium proper (ie the imperial galactic government/administratum) doesn't give a hoot about gender.

 Lusall wrote:
I'm pretty sure women have always been in the guard. Even in the early codex Imperial guard, they make mention of it.

Yes, going all the way back to RT - complete with models.

You have some places where it's 100% equal. On Cadia for example "the birth rate and the recriutment rates on Cadia are synonymous" and "All Cadians - no matter their age, gender or station - must know how to fight" (AM codex pg 14)

The Ordo Assassinorum and the various Death Cults seem to favor female assassins over male.

Mellon wrote:

Lately GW have started sorting this out a bit. For example by claiming that women are common in the imperial guard and by including more female characters in books. But they still have a _looong_ way to go. (And I'm not even sure they want to, because demographics...)

So feel free to help GW along to take the 41st millennium into the equality standards of the 2nd ;-)

So forced conscription in to the Military on Cadia is your idea of equality?
That's the only way you'll see enough women in uniform I assure you but damned if anyone cared for the right of an individual to choose. Imperium doesn't care of course, human life is currency, spend it well and all but I really grow tired at the concept of women serving front-line roles. Their bodies cannot sustain the punishment as long as men can and they will burn out faster.

A fictional military order for women that understands women, like the Sisters of Battle, is a much better representation. Seriously, they look like they can fight while on their period I'm not kidding. And no that isn't a stab at women I am being serious, PMS is actual bring you to your knees for most women, so anyone that can attempt operating in a war-zone during that kind of internal pain deserves a purity seal.

But as for women in the Imperial Guard lasting as long as the men? utter fiction, unless of course Cadian women are built internally like men are then it's justified (being fiction anything is possible) but that is not the impression I get.

 Ginsu33 wrote:
Their bodies cannot sustain the punishment as long as men can and they will burn out faster.

Wrong. Women can sustain just as much punishment as men. Both can be blow apart instantly by a bolter shot, be poisoned and die screaming against xenos horrors, etc. The average life expectancy in combat of IG troops, male or female, is measured in seconds. So who cares about some theoretical difference in strength or toughness, both are dead, send in the next wave.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, this, of all things is the thing you "grow tired of"? 40k is fiction. Assuming that men and women are equal in combat for the sake of having female characters for people to identify with is a pretty minor violation of realism compared to sentient fungus monsters that act like rioting British soccer fans, FTL travel that consists of literally traveling through hell and hoping you don't end up devoured by demons or arriving centuries before you left, chainsaw swords, tank designs that WWI engineers would be appalled by, etc.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ginsu33 wrote:
Their bodies cannot sustain the punishment as long as men can and they will burn out faster.

Wrong. Women can sustain just as much punishment as men. Both can be blow apart instantly by a bolter shot, be poisoned and die screaming against xenos horrors, etc. The average life expectancy in combat of IG troops, male or female, is measured in seconds. So who cares about some theoretical difference in strength or toughness, both are dead, send in the next wave.

Because it's not theoretical, it's about 2 weeks max of continued field operations until the female soldier will sustain injury. This is why females cannot complete special forces training even if they manage to go through the course initially.

Second.. you are describing some kind of offensive/assault where Imperial Guard are being thrown as waves. While this is typical, you should know that the Imperial Guard fight all types of land warfare, from sieges, to large scale offensives, counter-insurgency etc. So your d-day storm the beaches scenario, while a good example for your justification, is not an actual representation of what the Imperial Guard are expected to do.

If you want more information you should google independent studies conducted within the British, US, and most importantly Israeli armed forces. Telling me I am wrong, doesn't mean I am wrong, but it does discredit the combat experience learned by those forces and IMO it is ignorant to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, this, of all things is the thing you "grow tired of"? 40k is fiction. Assuming that men and women are equal in combat for the sake of having female characters for people to identify with is a pretty minor violation of realism compared to sentient fungus monsters that act like rioting British soccer fans, FTL travel that consists of literally traveling through hell and hoping you don't end up devoured by demons or arriving centuries before you left, chainsaw swords, tank designs that WWI engineers would be appalled by, etc.

I didn't say they are not equal in combat.. lol I said they burn out faster.

 Ginsu33 wrote:
Because it's not theoretical, it's about 2 weeks max of continued field operations until the female soldier will sustain injury. This is why females cannot complete special forces training even if they manage to go through the course initially.

This is 40k. If you survive 2 minutes you consider yourself lucky.

Second.. you are describing some kind of offensive/assault where Imperial Guard are being thrown as waves. While this is typical, you should know that the Imperial Guard fight all types of land warfare, from sieges, to large scale offensives, counter-insurgency etc. So your d-day storm the beaches scenario, while a good example for your justification, is not an actual representation of what the Imperial Guard are expected to do.

No, actually it's an entirely accurate representation of what they do. IG win by overwhelming numbers and throwing bodies at the problem until the enemy runs out of bullets.

If you want more information you should google independent studies conducted within the British, US, and most importantly Israeli armed forces. Telling me I am wrong, doesn't mean I am wrong, but it does discredit the combat experience learned by those forces and IMO it is ignorant to do so.

Those studies are about the real world. This is 40k.

I didn't say they are not equal in combat.. lol I said they burn out faster.

And, again, who cares if it's a bit unrealistic? Nothing else in 40k is realistic so why does this matter so much to you?

@Ginsu33

If you want to use studies conducted by armed forces on women capacity for sustained combat, you should also read the response of the scientific community on those studies as well as take some elements of consideration that didn't applied to women soldiers in the past and might not apply to them in the furute.

The most famous study published by the US armed forces was by the US Marine Corp and was wracked by methodological issues. It had poor sampling, was based on annecdotal experience and not clear controlled groups, had many conclusion that were contradicted by other, better designed sutidies, for example for the maximal charge a young adult women between 140 and 160 pound can carry or differences in terms of sleep and food deprivation symptomes.

All modern armies are birth from the same military tradition and follow, roughly, the same kind of training, indoctrination and equipment. All of these elements were designed for the use of fighting men not fighting women. The UK forces do recognise that most of their equipment is inadapted to for women. The standard body armor are too cumbersome and don't fit properly a typical women, providing lower protection, more discomfort and still represent a heavy load. Gun's handle and spacing is designed for a men's hand and arms which are usualy larger making manipulation of large caliber weapon more difficult. Bags and pouches and even uniform cut and underwears aren't ideal or even good since women don't habe the same musculature and won't balance weight in the same fashion than men. The Israeli army mentionned that the psychological environment of combat unit isn't optimal for women's integration, etc.

Women, in the past and right now, do participate in sustained combat situation. While all armies are hesitant for various reasons to send women in the front line, where the fight is the hardest, circomstances of war sometimes make the hardest fight come them instead. In those cases, there is very little difference between men and women since physical might doesn't play an as important role in modern warfare as deployment, good logistic, equipment, numbers or the level of moral of the fighting force in question for example. A unit can hardly stay in the thick of the fight for more than 2 weeks of continous combat before being subject to injuries. Psychological exhaustion is also an enormous factor and one can hardly be trained. In fact, during WWI, the longest time a unit was forced to stay in combat was 6 weeks and let say those who survived were all suffering tremendously. Technically the ideal time was 2 weeks. After that, new units were to be sent to avoid "burning troops".

In a contexte of a 40K war, who knows what sort of equipment and fighting tradition these people have. Some might favor women because their training methods and equipment favors smaller and lighter combattant over larger and stronger ones. We barely know anything about how an actual battle or war is fought. Plus, even if women were clearly inferior combattant, human society aren't all that rational and theocratic dictatorial regime even less so. You could a see a planet with armies composed only of women with innapropriate weapons, equipment and training methods simply because of some religious or cultural reasons.

The Imperium is sort of insane. I wouldn't be surprised if they sent a bunch of small teenager girls, almost stripped nacked, armed with cumbersome maces and large caliber shotguns in the guards because on their planet a very famous saintly women killed a Chaos Space Marines with a blast of shotgun to the face and then finished him up by cracking his skull with a mace. The diverse (and insane) nature of the Imperium makes all sorts of discussion on the combat capacities of men vs women based on our data (which aren't all that numerous and of good quality since its a rather recent field of study) almost pointless. With gene enhancement, cybernetics, other planet biospheres, we don't even know if what we know of the human body (which is far from being complete, we don't even know for sure all the differences between men and women physically speaking) holds true.

 Ginsu33 wrote:

Mellon wrote:

Lately GW have started sorting this out a bit. For example by claiming that women are common in the imperial guard and by including more female characters in books. But they still have a _looong_ way to go. (And I'm not even sure they want to, because demographics...)

So feel free to help GW along to take the 41st millennium into the equality standards of the 2nd ;-)

So forced conscription in to the Military on Cadia is your idea of equality?
That's the only way you'll see enough women in uniform I assure you but damned if anyone cared for the right of an individual to choose. Imperium doesn't care of course, human life is currency, spend it well and all but I really grow tired at the concept of women serving front-line roles. Their bodies cannot sustain the punishment as long as men can and they will burn out faster.

A fictional military order for women that understands women, like the Sisters of Battle, is a much better representation. Seriously, they look like they can fight while on their period I'm not kidding. And no that isn't a stab at women I am being serious, PMS is actual bring you to your knees for most women, so anyone that can attempt operating in a war-zone during that kind of internal pain deserves a purity seal.

But as for women in the Imperial Guard lasting as long as the men? utter fiction, unless of course Cadian women are built internally like men are then it's justified (being fiction anything is possible) but that is not the impression I get.

And sisters of battle are all female.
And highly feared as a displined, well capable combat force yo be reckoned with.

There equality in that. Woman can take the fight to emprors enemies freely as men.

 Peregrine wrote:
No, actually it's an entirely accurate representation of what they do. IG win by overwhelming numbers and throwing bodies at the problem until the enemy runs out of bullets.

While the Guard are more than willing to spend lives where necessary, they do not spend them frivolously. To do so wastes property of the Emperor. They may not always do it in the most logical way but I'm pretty sure there's a story of an IG commander who was punished for taking vastly inappropriate losses.

 Peregrine wrote:
And, again, who cares if it's a bit unrealistic? Nothing else in 40k is realistic so why does this matter so much to you?

Do we have numbers on PDF and IG tithing? The standard PDF is going to be some percentage of the population; bigger population, bigger PDF, bigger IG tithe right? So what kind of percentages are we looking at? I don't mean for crazy planets like Cadia or Krieg, just your average planet, where the overwhelming bulk of the IG would come from. I would be surprised if it was much higher than a few percent at most. So it's reasonable to assume that the average PDF soldier is a better physical specimen than the vast majority of the population, in the same way the average US marine is in better shape than the bulk of US citizens. I'm not sure it's still the go, but weren't IG tithes the best of the PDF? In which case the average IG regiment is made of up the best soldiers from the upper end of the population a planet has to offer. Which would mean there's every reason to believe that IG troops are high end physical specimens.

But as you said, realism is thrown out the window for so many things, why pick on this one? Getting caught up over whether women would make the cut is a realistic concern in the same way worrying about how boob armour might perform is. Neither is particularly valid to what is essentially fantasy with pew pew. Doesn't make sense? Throw it on the pile, keep killing heretics.

@PeregrineMade

Those are fair points, but I have to disagree on your perspective of IG tactics. IG are as diverse as their Regiments are in tactics, and while they can behave that way and are depicted in many situations to do so, we also see them depicted to behave very differently as the situation dictates.

@epronovostMade

Fair points made as well, I refer to UK and Israeli studies, Israeli being the most accurate as they have extensive data on mixed male/female mechanized units and their performance, it was Israeli officers who also warned the US about the dangers of mixed units. The two weeks field operations does not actually include sustained combat either, which is the key point, they burn out even without fighting where the male units do not or have minimal injuries.

But yeah, they can still fight and i'm sure some Regiments use them.

@jhe90Made

I think sisters of battle are cool.

@KojiroMade

It's a realism concern because while the argument may be that including such characters will reach out to a broader demographic, it's not an accurate representation of women and therefore not what women would even identify with. Males are different, if we are interested enough in something we will find elements we identify with or interest us, from the heroic actions of Guardsmen, to the responsibilities of the Marines, to the creativity of Orks, the perspective of Tau, the all knowing Eldar.. Cold Necrons.. Tyranids munch munch munch..

But what are female soldiers bringing to the table if their robbed of their vulnerabilities and femininity? Their just men with female bodies? Or soldiers with a forced sex appeal.. and really who is that appealing to, what kind of girl is going to identify with that?

 Ginsu33 wrote:

It's a realism concern because while the argument may be that including such characters will reach out to a broader demographic, it's not an accurate representation of women and therefore not what women would even identify with.

A few counterpoints.
Given that it's a fantasy (IN SPAAAACE!!!) accuracy is completely besides the point. 40k has guys in trenches fighting big bug monsters who can make bone as hard as steel. Realism has left the building a long time ago. Secondly women are not a monolithic group and their tastes are as diverse as males.

Males are different, if we are interested enough in something we will find elements we identify with or interest us, from the heroic actions of Guardsmen, to the responsibilities of the Marines, to the creativity of Orks, the perspective of Tau, the all knowing Eldar.. Cold Necrons.. Tyranids munch munch munch..

Women are exactly as able to find those things. Now I grant you I've never understood the 'identify with gender' thing some women have but it's far from the only thing they like about things.

But what are female soldiers bringing to the table if their robbed of their vulnerabilities and femininity?

Who says they have to be robbed of vulnerability? I mean, it's not like a male guardsman should ever feel especially safe? "Bolters? Oh they'll rip a woman right up. Good thing I have a penis!" Hell given the state of the game Terminator aren't really that safe.

I won't address your 'femininity' point as I'm not sure what you mean by it, but it seems like you mean 'weak, in need of protection, passive' and other 'soft' traits. Some women are that, but so are some men and any woman who made it to the PDF, then made it to the Guard isn't going to be that kind of person. Actually I sorta did address that.

Their just men with female bodies? Or soldiers with a forced sex appeal.. and really who is that appealing to, what kind of girl is going to identify with that?

1) They're humans with female bits. Just like men and humans with male bits. On the scale and purpose of 40k, they're all meatbags waiting to explode that hope to make a few of the other guys explode first. 2) Sex appeal has no place in the IG. The only place it has any merit in 40k is with Slaanesh and even then is only an element of Slaanesh. 3)As to what kind of girl is going to identify with it, what the hell does that matter?

It costs us nothing to have women included in the guard range (save perhaps the tooling costs of new molds GW will undoubtedly pass on to us) and if it makes a few people a happier, all the better.

Now don't get me wrong, if someone wants to have an all male unit/army that's entirely their choice too. But I cannot see a problem with the option being on the table.

@Ginsu33

There is a few things to keep in mind when it comes to soldiers injuries while on deployment or in training. Most light injuries are self reported. Unless the injuries involves an accident, combat or is severe, things like back, neck or joint pain (pretty common light injuries due to mechanical stress) are pretty much all self reported. Soldiers don't have complete medical checkup that regularly even in training where they are followed by trainers more closely. Women in civilian society report medical trouble at around twice the rate than man. It shouldn't be different in the army. So are women really injured more often or are they reporting stress pain more often to medical officers and trainers? Is it a bit of both? Is the training innadapted to women? Are trainer knowledgeable enough and allowed to teach different methods to aliveate risks of injuries in atypical soldiers? Is the equipment in cause? These are all difficult questions to which no one to my knowledge really has a good answer.

On your point about demographic, I believe you are completly wrong. Women aren't different than men. They like power fantasy with them as the central piece just like anybody else. Women love to feel in power and in control, to be considered heroic just like men. Badass women are very popular amongst female demographic. You only need to look at Hunger Games or at the popularity of the YPJ units (the female branch of the Syrian Kurdish militia) in propaganda against ISIS to attest of this fact. Heroic warrior women sell very well to all demographics.

@KojiroMade

We'll agree on having different opinions on the issue, I think that people share both our perspectives but I've side-tracked things getting in to personal opinions.

@epronovostMade

Regardless of the type of injury, anything that results in a soldier not being able to continue his/her duty is a casualty.
Training in-adapted to women? It's infantry training, if women can't do it, they are sub-standard infantry units. I don't know why you think no one has a good answer when Israel has enough combat experience to state very clearly what women should and should not be getting involved in.

The only place to have women performing their role well enough with the lowest rate of sustained injury is in mechanized or at least motorized units. Mounted in vehicles, or most extreme case light dismounted infantry defending fixed positions.
The less stress on their bodies, the longer they can operate. That's what every study has found. The moment you try to get women to do what men do for as long as men do, they fail. That's reality.

Which just raises the point of why use women if you have readily available men that last longer on the job? Cadia, considering it's circumstances makes sense for forced conscription of all. But it's not going to mean that women are equal to male soldiers.

Regarding demographics, yes they love female heroes but these females are also feminine or at least hold the qualities of such. I used to watch Ripley as a kid, I understand the angle there and I'm not opposed to female units in 40k, considering we already have them, but it should be done properly. Female assassins sure, female imperial guard, okay but do it properly, female storm troopers? forget it.

Sisters of battle different matter all together and they fit perfectly in the lore.