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Lord Perversor wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Can't see it happening myself, it would muddy the Heresy waters too much, and that is a major seller for the company. I could see them letting one of the loyalist primarchs go Renegade, but having one of the traitors come back to the Imperium is a little too much really, and is stretching the narrative a little too much.

Saying that, the alpha legion could pull it off with the whole "we've been working for the Imperium all along thingy"

Lion El'johnson history and the Dark Angels one it's always walking in the edge about if they truly are loyalist or traitors. If any primarch is to turn into Chaos he's the more fitting one.

Your mistaken, the lion is the most loyal primarch bar none, he was the only one constantly tested by chaos, his entire life, he nerve turned, when half his legion went renegade (they were not traitors, they were loyal, to him and to caliban, just not imperium) he attacked them, if 40k dark angels went traitor, he would turn on them too.

No other primarch was tested as often as the lion, all that were fell to chaos or gave into chaos, including sanguinius, who was only saved by one of his men from falling too, the up to date dark angels fluff shows this ☺

 Ginjitzu wrote:
My 2 cents:

Most likely to turn traitor: Guilliman (because SURPRISE MUTHAF#+*AS! )

Most likely to turn loyal: Magnus (because "I never wanted this! ")

If the writer's pen was mine:

Spoiler:

Everyone returns for some hot Bro on Bro action! Lines are blurred, everything's a mess. Big E makes a comeback to layeth the smackdown on all y'all Jabronis.
PLOT TWIST!
Turn's out ol' Empy's a chaos lovin' jerk, sees himself as the fifth ruinous power. Tears everywhere. No one knows what's what.
Then again, I'm still holding onto the hope that LUKE IS SNOKE!

The daemon primarchs kinda don't have the ability to turn back

ill be honest i don't really like the idea of returning primarchs but as has been said before i suspect Guilliman is the most likely to go traitor but not to chaos more as a 3rd faction, if were talking about switching to chaos id say the kahn,

As for one turning back loyal i don't really see how, many have "reasons" but I'm not sure how you un become a deamon

Magnus probably could, but that's never gonna happen lol

 1hadhq wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:
I just read an article on Bell of Lost Souls ....

IMO the Quality of your Source is


And why would they make two of them switch sides?

Well, the obvious answer would be "so that there's an even number of Primarchs between Chaos and the IoM".

My biggest question would be how any of the surviving Traitor Primarch's could return to the Imperium; aren't they all Daemon Princes by now?

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
My 2 cents:

Most likely to turn traitor: Guilliman (because SURPRISE MUTHAF#+*AS! )

Most likely to turn loyal: Magnus (because "I never wanted this! ")

If the writer's pen was mine:

Spoiler:

Everyone returns for some hot Bro on Bro action! Lines are blurred, everything's a mess. Big E makes a comeback to layeth the smackdown on all y'all Jabronis.
PLOT TWIST!
Turn's out ol' Empy's a chaos lovin' jerk, sees himself as the fifth ruinous power. Tears everywhere. No one knows what's what.
Then again, I'm still holding onto the hope that LUKE IS SNOKE!

The daemon primarchs kinda don't have the ability to turn back

Magnus could conceivably do so. He's the only one who would appear to retain a modicum of free will (judging by the fact he told Abby to get lost despite the Gods wanting to bless him). As the heir to the Emperor's psychic power, he's the only one likely to have sufficient warp power in his own right to be able to act independently without risking the Chaos Gods taking offence and taking them to task.

That being said, I don't see it happening. Magnus as his own faction? Perhaps. Magnus siding with the Imperium? Naahhhh. They'd never take him.

 Ketara wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
My 2 cents:

Most likely to turn traitor: Guilliman (because SURPRISE MUTHAF#+*AS! )

Most likely to turn loyal: Magnus (because "I never wanted this! ")

If the writer's pen was mine:

Spoiler:

Everyone returns for some hot Bro on Bro action! Lines are blurred, everything's a mess. Big E makes a comeback to layeth the smackdown on all y'all Jabronis.
PLOT TWIST!
Turn's out ol' Empy's a chaos lovin' jerk, sees himself as the fifth ruinous power. Tears everywhere. No one knows what's what.
Then again, I'm still holding onto the hope that LUKE IS SNOKE!

The daemon primarchs kinda don't have the ability to turn back

Magnus could conceivably do so. He's the only one who would appear to retain a modicum of free will (judging by the fact he told Abby to get lost despite the Gods wanting to bless him). As the heir to the Emperor's psychic power, he's the only one likely to have sufficient warp power in his own right to be able to act independently without risking the Chaos Gods taking offence and taking them to task.

That being said, I don't see it happening. Magnus as his own faction? Perhaps. Magnus siding with the Imperium? Naahhhh. They'd never take him.

The only real options I see for a Traitor returning to the Imperial fold or going freelance are either Night Haunter, or Alpharius. Night Haunter's death could be retconned, and the Alpha Legion faking their Primarch's death would be right up their alley: GW would just have to come up with a really good plot for why either would fake their own demise for 10.000 years.

Horus is pretty much permadead (No, you don't get to retcon that! Bad writer!), and the other six are all Daemon Princes - they're gone. They're over the hill and far away, only stopping long enough to nail an Imperial Cardinal to a stopsign.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Alpharius/Omegon is always a canidate. Are they really dead? Were they really traitors? Who knows. I sure dont. A cloned Horus would be interesting.

Well

Oh, I know!

Alpharius turns loyal, rejecting Chaos to become once-more a Champion of the Emperor. He was finally convinced by Omegon's arguments!

Omegon turns traitor, rejecting the Emperor to finally become a Demon Prince of Undivided Chaos. He was finally pushed too far by the Imperium's inadequacy!

(Re: Spoiler... That was just false thoughts deliberately made to confused a telepathic psyker spy that one of the twins sensed. Wheels within wheels, ladies and gentlemen!)

I don't think there is anyway back for Magnus! Have you not seen the new model?? Not much common my back from that!

omeg coming back or maybe revealing himself, he could be hiding in plain sight.... would be cool.

 Formosa wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Can't see it happening myself, it would muddy the Heresy waters too much, and that is a major seller for the company. I could see them letting one of the loyalist primarchs go Renegade, but having one of the traitors come back to the Imperium is a little too much really, and is stretching the narrative a little too much.

Saying that, the alpha legion could pull it off with the whole "we've been working for the Imperium all along thingy"

Lion El'johnson history and the Dark Angels one it's always walking in the edge about if they truly are loyalist or traitors. If any primarch is to turn into Chaos he's the more fitting one.

Your mistaken, the lion is the most loyal primarch bar none, he was the only one constantly tested by chaos, his entire life, he nerve turned, when half his legion went renegade (they were not traitors, they were loyal, to him and to caliban, just not imperium) he attacked them, if 40k dark angels went traitor, he would turn on them too.

No other primarch was tested as often as the lion, all that were fell to chaos or gave into chaos, including sanguinius, who was only saved by one of his men from falling too, the up to date dark angels fluff shows this ☺

I don't think it's fair to say Sanguinius "fell" to chaos. He was sacrificing himself so that an entire legion of loyalists could fight for the Imperium. He made a calculation and decided it was better to have 120,000 BA on Terra and not him then have all his men as Khorne Bezerkers (jks) fighting him on Terra. Also, Lorgar makes a point of saying in "Betrayer" that no one is as loyal as Sanguinius as he is loyal out of "perfect fear" of what his wings mean. That is why he would never have fallen to chaos. However, I agree that the Lion is at the very least tied with Sanguinius for the title of "Best at resisting chaos" because I think it is in "Angels of Caliban" when the Lion reveals that he had chaos daemons come to him every night in the jungle of caliban and resisted them all, calling curze weak for falling for their lies. The fluff is very contradictary on stuff like this, so we're both gonna think Lion and Sanguinius are best respectively, but it's just my two cents

I could see Guilliman betraying the Imperium because at the current time the Imperium is not what the Emperor wanted and certainly not the future Guilliman envisioned when he set out the Codex Astartes. He would form a new faction of Ultramar which would be all the Ultramarine descendants. So not Chaos but not Imperial either.

I'm not a fan of the big side-swap but I really like the idea of Primarchs and Chapters going renegade.
If someone had to turn traitor I'd like to see the Grey Knights condemn both the Wolves and Angels for the events of Warzone Fenris and get them both exiled by the Imperium questioned seperately the Wolves blame the Angels, the Angels blame the Wolves and the Grey Knights condemn them both, conveniently showing the readers a traitor who is apparently above suspicion and docking the Imperium of two founding chapters in the process.

You know what would be out of left field?

Corax turning traitor, appearing once more in the imperium and slaughtering what he sees as the tyranny that the imperium now holds with a single whisper of "Nevermore".

As for a heel-face turn... Logar. What's one of the most prominent features of religion (OR at least Christian)? The Prodigal son. After creating the Horus heresy and so many years of bloodshead and death, what if in the final act he realizes what he has done? A betrayal by the dark gods akin to the one his father made sending him back to his father's side? IT may sound stupid, but... well, we have no clue what's going to happen in the future

I would guess something new, like a lost Primarch emerging form the warp.

I doubt GW would entirely change the allegiance of an entire chapter (which would invalidate armies), but rather split existing chapters (like the Dark Angels).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 1hadhq wrote:

IMO the Quality of your Source is

True, definitely not a reliable rumour.
Fun discussion though.

 Formosa wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Can't see it happening myself, it would muddy the Heresy waters too much, and that is a major seller for the company. I could see them letting one of the loyalist primarchs go Renegade, but having one of the traitors come back to the Imperium is a little too much really, and is stretching the narrative a little too much.

Saying that, the alpha legion could pull it off with the whole "we've been working for the Imperium all along thingy"

Lion El'johnson history and the Dark Angels one it's always walking in the edge about if they truly are loyalist or traitors. If any primarch is to turn into Chaos he's the more fitting one.

Your mistaken, the lion is the most loyal primarch bar none, he was the only one constantly tested by chaos, his entire life, he nerve turned, when half his legion went renegade (they were not traitors, they were loyal, to him and to caliban, just not imperium) he attacked them, if 40k dark angels went traitor, he would turn on them too.

No other primarch was tested as often as the lion, all that were fell to chaos or gave into chaos, including sanguinius, who was only saved by one of his men from falling too, the up to date dark angels fluff shows this ☺

Well said, brother. For the Lion!

& to everyone saying that certain things "can't" happen, like Demon's undaemoning & dead guys undeadening because of "precedent/logic", remember "retcon/magic". Whether they "should" happen is something else entirely .

Good thread this!
I think the characters that are overlooked when Primarchs returning is mentioned are the Chapter Masters. Would they cede control even to their Primarch if he suggested going over to Chaos? I doubt it!
Imagine for an instance if Lionel returned and said to Azrael; "The Empire is bad let's join chaos!" I think Azrael's answer would be along the lines of "Kill the traitor!" I also think the chapter as a whole would take some convincing that they've been wrong for 10,000 years.
The more likely scenario is that Gulliman returns,declares war on the Imperium leaders and is declared heretic by them, to me a lot of the rumours coming at the moment suggest an impending civil war.
On a side note,I'd like the Lion return and save Fenris;what better way to wind the Wolves up!

I could see Vulkan coming back...and turning traitor. Not because he hates the emperor, but because he, as a perpetual, understands that the only way to save the emperor would be to kill him and let him reincarnate (Vulkan working under the Assumption that the Emperor is a perpetual himself).

Of the other Loyalists, I could see Gulliman coming back. I think he's arrogant and a optimist, so perhaps he would think he could lead the imperium into a new golden age and reform the backwards nature of it's government.

Or....or, we could have a real plot twist and bring in one of the missing Primarchs with a bad ass backstory....

Theres that box on Titan that has the same sigil on it as the golden throne, maybe it's a status device that once activated, deactivates a status tomb under the throne which contains either the 2nd or 11th primarch.

Now with happenings at Fenris, i hope that Leman Russ finally returns and kicks Magnus A..backside, that would be the most logical as the wolves are getting a beating.

How about this:

The omega vault opens, revealing (SURPRISE) Omegon, who flies toTitan, reveals he was Janus all along, uses the Terminus decree to shut down the Golden Throne, freeing the Emperor but simultaneously destroying the Astronomican and letting Daemons into the palace, who are fended off by Dante until who arrives from the warp but Corax, Russ, Vulcan and Khan, closely followed by Alpharius, who use something they found in the warp to heal Glliman and Dorn. Ferrus' clone returns, Lion wakes up and the sanguinor is revealed to be sanguinus.

Slipstream wrote:
Good thread this!
I think the characters that are overlooked when Primarchs returning is mentioned are the Chapter Masters. Would they cede control even to their Primarch if he suggested going over to Chaos? I doubt it!
Imagine for an instance if Lionel returned and said to Azrael; "The Empire is bad let's join chaos!" I think Azrael's answer would be along the lines of "Kill the traitor!" I also think the chapter as a whole would take some convincing that they've been wrong for 10,000 years.
The more likely scenario is that Gulliman returns,declares war on the Imperium leaders and is declared heretic by them, to me a lot of the rumours coming at the moment suggest an impending civil war.
On a side note,I'd like the Lion return and save Fenris;what better way to wind the Wolves up!

Fenris already been saved, SPOILER - It wasn't an Angel.

IMO leave primarchs where they belong, in 30k. Over the years GW have constantly released cringeworthy fluff like "Russ is just hanging out in the warp until `the wolfe time`" "Dorn is in the warp until `the ende time`" and so on.

Johnson waking up, sure, he's been alive inside the rock since 2nd edition at least (unsure of RT), Guilliman healing in stasis... I guess... The whole host of primarchs coming back for a huge throwdown? Just no.

Cassor the Damned wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Can't see it happening myself, it would muddy the Heresy waters too much, and that is a major seller for the company. I could see them letting one of the loyalist primarchs go Renegade, but having one of the traitors come back to the Imperium is a little too much really, and is stretching the narrative a little too much.

Saying that, the alpha legion could pull it off with the whole "we've been working for the Imperium all along thingy"

Lion El'johnson history and the Dark Angels one it's always walking in the edge about if they truly are loyalist or traitors. If any primarch is to turn into Chaos he's the more fitting one.

Your mistaken, the lion is the most loyal primarch bar none, he was the only one constantly tested by chaos, his entire life, he nerve turned, when half his legion went renegade (they were not traitors, they were loyal, to him and to caliban, just not imperium) he attacked them, if 40k dark angels went traitor, he would turn on them too.

No other primarch was tested as often as the lion, all that were fell to chaos or gave into chaos, including sanguinius, who was only saved by one of his men from falling too, the up to date dark angels fluff shows this ☺

I don't think it's fair to say Sanguinius "fell" to chaos. He was sacrificing himself so that an entire legion of loyalists could fight for the Imperium. He made a calculation and decided it was better to have 120,000 BA on Terra and not him then have all his men as Khorne Bezerkers (jks) fighting him on Terra. Also, Lorgar makes a point of saying in "Betrayer" that no one is as loyal as Sanguinius as he is loyal out of "perfect fear" of what his wings mean. That is why he would never have fallen to chaos. However, I agree that the Lion is at the very least tied with Sanguinius for the title of "Best at resisting chaos" because I think it is in "Angels of Caliban" when the Lion reveals that he had chaos daemons come to him every night in the jungle of caliban and resisted them all, calling curze weak for falling for their lies. The fluff is very contradictary on stuff like this, so we're both gonna think Lion and Sanguinius are best respectively, but it's just my two cents

poor choice of words on my behalf, but sanguinius defo "fell for it" when it came to chaos, he was manipulated into a chain of event that if his apothecary had not stepped up, he would have fell, he was tempted through his loyalty to his sons, his armour cracked, doesn't matter how you fall if you fall and he fell, but was saved before he crossed the line

Now, Alpharius was killed by Dorn

The Alpha Legion Possess the Ability to "Become Alpharius" By Drinking his Blood

Ergo, if someone replaced an Alpha Legion Captains Blood with Alpharius', He Would LITERALLY Become Alpharius

I suppose its a Way for him to Return...

 Formosa wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Can't see it happening myself, it would muddy the Heresy waters too much, and that is a major seller for the company. I could see them letting one of the loyalist primarchs go Renegade, but having one of the traitors come back to the Imperium is a little too much really, and is stretching the narrative a little too much.

Saying that, the alpha legion could pull it off with the whole "we've been working for the Imperium all along thingy"

Lion El'johnson history and the Dark Angels one it's always walking in the edge about if they truly are loyalist or traitors. If any primarch is to turn into Chaos he's the more fitting one.

Your mistaken, the lion is the most loyal primarch bar none, he was the only one constantly tested by chaos, his entire life, he nerve turned, when half his legion went renegade (they were not traitors, they were loyal, to him and to caliban, just not imperium) he attacked them, if 40k dark angels went traitor, he would turn on them too.

No other primarch was tested as often as the lion, all that were fell to chaos or gave into chaos, including sanguinius, who was only saved by one of his men from falling too, the up to date dark angels fluff shows this ☺

I don't think it's fair to say Sanguinius "fell" to chaos. He was sacrificing himself so that an entire legion of loyalists could fight for the Imperium. He made a calculation and decided it was better to have 120,000 BA on Terra and not him then have all his men as Khorne Bezerkers (jks) fighting him on Terra. Also, Lorgar makes a point of saying in "Betrayer" that no one is as loyal as Sanguinius as he is loyal out of "perfect fear" of what his wings mean. That is why he would never have fallen to chaos. However, I agree that the Lion is at the very least tied with Sanguinius for the title of "Best at resisting chaos" because I think it is in "Angels of Caliban" when the Lion reveals that he had chaos daemons come to him every night in the jungle of caliban and resisted them all, calling curze weak for falling for their lies. The fluff is very contradictary on stuff like this, so we're both gonna think Lion and Sanguinius are best respectively, but it's just my two cents

poor choice of words on my behalf, but sanguinius defo "fell for it" when it came to chaos, he was manipulated into a chain of event that if his apothecary had not stepped up, he would have fell, he was tempted through his loyalty to his sons, his armour cracked, doesn't matter how you fall if you fall and he fell, but was saved before he crossed the line

Maybe I'm being a bit of a fanboy (something I'm often guilty of lol) but I still don't think he "fell" as that implies he was tricked or convinced. He wasn't, he knew what was going to happen but decided to do it anyway to save his sons and to allow them to continue to fight for the Imperium, knowing 120,000 astartes would do more than he ever could. That, to me, seems less like "falling" and more like sacrificing yourself for the greater good. Imagine you were part of a space marine honour guard and, during a crucial battle, a nurgle sorceror attempts to stab your Chapter Master in the back with a daemon blade. You throw yourself in front of the blade and as such are stabbed. You are now starting to rot and turn into a daemon. Did you "fall" to chaos or were you backed into a corner and sacrificed yourself for the greater good?

This got me thinking tbh, what primarchs would have done the same as sanguinius and damned themselves to save their legion? I can see everyone but perhaps mortarian, angron, curze and pertuarbo sacrificing themselves, either out of love for their sons or out of strategical benefit. Better a legion than a primarch.

I feel like Angron would be quick to sacrifice himself should the decision be made when the nails are not biting. Betrayer reveals so many layers beneath the psychotic exterior. Perturbao on the other hand...yeah I could see him throwing in the rest of the Imperium to boot if it allowed him to endure

BaconUprising wrote:
I feel like Angron would be quick to sacrifice himself should the decision be made when the nails are not biting. Betrayer reveals so many layers beneath the psychotic exterior. Perturbao on the other hand...yeah I could see him throwing in the rest of the Imperium to boot if it allowed him to endure

That's true, Angron displayed true brotherhood in Betrayer when he talks about his fellow-slaves. I think that had he not had the nails, or if they weren't biting then possibly. This brings up something else as well tho Night Haunter would never sacrifice himself, but would Konrad Curze? And would he do it before or after his legion became polluted with criminals?

 commander dante wrote:
Now, Alpharius was killed by Dorn

The Alpha Legion Possess the Ability to "Become Alpharius" By Drinking his Blood

Ergo, if someone replaced an Alpha Legion Captains Blood with Alpharius', He Would LITERALLY Become Alpharius

I suppose its a Way for him to Return...

and that's why the Alpha legion is my least favorite chaos legion. Every single defeat across the board for almost every army in 40k is concrete, but alpha legion just has to have an obnoxious "OR DID THEY?!" after it. now I can say that for all the other primarchs after the Horus heresy (including dorn who is the 2nd biggest instance of this) but alpha legion fans just have to have that little extra towards the end of their stories.

ah well, tyrade over.

Logically, the Space Wolves are already rife with heresy. I could see the IOM driving them to fall against their primarch's wishes.

Of course, since their heresy is touted as "not a problem" called heresy by only the evil inquisitors" and "used for good", then it probablywon't be the SW.