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 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You think S5 Storm Bolters would be abusive In Sternguard squads?
I literally laughed out loud at work at the mere thought of that being an issue. Also, if Pulse Rifles aren't an issue to rhinos, ya know the guns on a basic troop, they won't be an issue on a 175 point Terminator squad.

It could change internal faction balance in unforeseen ways and might boost something else over actually helping terminators, for whatever that's worth in 40k's pile of imbalanced stuff. No reason to be a jerk about it, I was just making a suggestion.

I have to be a jerk about it because you made a knee jerk reaction.

In what manner would a S5 Storm Bolter cause internal Balance anyway? Did you know a Storm Bolter at BS4 is worse than a Heavy Stubber at BS3 in every situation and equal at a target with a 5+? It is ridiculous.
External Balance? It fixes a primary issue with Grey Knights. That's about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And then you're failing to take into consideration Paladins and MegaNobz and Chaos Terminators (Death Guard Terminators would be 2 Wounds with FNP). Seriously, what are you going to do to fix those issues?

Paladins already have the +1 wound profile. They would just become more standardized. Just leave the stats as-is with additional other benefits (Feel no Pain, additional attacks, etc.) they already have.

Same thing for Meganobz. They already have a 2 wound profile. Just leave them as is.

The +1 wound would only come in to play if you purchase the terminator armor for a character or model that doesn't have it as standard. Simple.

It's just changing the stat lines for models/units that have terminator armor on as standard.

I also fail to see the issue with Chaos Terminators, or death guard terminators, having 2 wounds (and FnP for death guard). They don't have eternal warrior, and will still die to enough concentrated firepower, but won't get picked up as soon as they land.

I fail to see an issue that needs to be fixed? Seriously. The sky isn't falling man. Just saying.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

And that's why I'm saying you're not taking into consideration other codices.

Paladins are 55 points a piece. A lot of that is coming from paying for the extra wound and extra WS. And then they have the option for an Apothecary. What goes on with that when you add FNP standard?
Meganobz have that 2 wound profile to differentiate them from having a 5++ instead. So you'd be giving the Terminators even more benefits compared to them, so what ELSE needs to be given to Meganobz?
Also Death Guard Terminators would be 2+/5++/5+++ T5 for less than 40 points.

S5 is just not fluffy. Bolters are S4.

This is not really arguable.

Yoyoyo wrote:
S5 is just not fluffy. Bolters are S4.

This is not really arguable.

1. It isn't a Bolter. It is a Storm bolter. It operates differently.
2. Don't use the fluff argument. Space Marines would be 6 across the board for stats, Eldar would dodge bullets, and Guardsmen would be like 1 point each.

The Storm Bolter has fluff going back to the 80's. It's a double barreled bolter. That's it.

Designers need to respect fluff. Aesthetics and theme are without a doubt why 40k has survived until 2017.

Pointing out a few flaws in "fluff logic" doesn't mean abandoning it completely. Rather it's a chance to fix what's possible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Paladins are 55 points a piece. A lot of that is coming from paying for the extra wound and extra WS. And then they have the option for an Apothecary. What goes on with that when you add FNP standard?
Meganobz have that 2 wound profile to differentiate them from having a 5++ instead. So you'd be giving the Terminators even more benefits compared to them, so what ELSE needs to be given to Meganobz?
Also Death Guard Terminators would be 2+/5++/5+++ T5 for less than 40 points.

We're not talking about Paladins here. Nor are we talking about Meganobz, or anything else that's not the actual topic of this thread's conversation. We're actually discussing standard space marine terminators and what to do to them to make them viable. If you want to make Paladins even more tough, give them better FNP (4+) with the Apothecary if purchased. They're also already psykers and have higher WS/BS as you already noted. The whole ork codex needs an overhaul so I'm not going to go into Meganobz as that's a discussion for another thread.

Comparing apples to oranges here in this discussion accomplishes nothing.

If you leave the points cost alone on Terminators, you add one wound to them and call it a day. Makes sense that a marine that is able to move and fire any weapon he can physically carry would be harder to take down, to include Centurions.

I prefer making the terminators tougher to kill. That's one reason why TH/SS assault terminators are universally viewed as the best, because they are the hardest to kill and perform their function the best by being able to survive long enough to actually accomplish what they're designed to do. By improving the survival rate of terminators in general (By increasing the wound count per model to 2) and introducing a mechanic to improve their invulnerable save (without wargear such as a storm shield upgrade) to a 4++ by, for example, having there be 3 or more terminator armored models in a squad, you at least accomplish making the squads effective without being overpowered.

Just my opinion once more. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

now granted it'd be easier to increase the stormbolters rate of fire, I mean assault 4'd begin to get scary. or Maybe take the "two bolt guns stuck together" literally and give it approperate stats to reflect that, in this case Salvo 2/4

Yeah, Terminator Armour is impractical in the game for exactly the same reasons as it is in the fluff: it's too expensive for what it does, isn't available in sufficient numbers to acheive its original goals, and is superceded by other units. Still, there's no reason not to take it for fluff reasons, and it still looks cool.

Dreadnoughts, on the other hand, will always have a place in my armies. If you can get them into combat with the right units, (which is a challenge, I admit), they more than pay for themselves, and can bring heavy weapons which can keep pace with infantry, while also being more compact than other vehicles of equivalent cost.

What happens to paladins once all terminators get 2 wounds or whatever?

 Spineyguy wrote:
Yeah, Terminator Armour is impractical in the game for exactly the same reasons as it is in the fluff: it's too expensive for what it does, isn't available in sufficient numbers to acheive its original goals, and is superceded by other units. Still, there's no reason not to take it for fluff reasons, and it still looks cool.

Yeah, but in the fluff aren't they also supposed to excel in close quarters fighting against really dangerous enemies that can tear up regular marines? Clearing space hulks, going through the breach into the enemy keep, that sort of thing. So they're supposed to be really durable but also more of an aggressive close-in option. Not something you'd send on a regular patrol, but something that's ideal for a Zone Mortalis situation.

 Jaxler wrote:
What happens to paladins once all terminators get 2 wounds or whatever?

they can eaither be changed with a knew paladin specific kit (perhaps let them take storm shields in addition to a sword and bolter, basicly the way way Dragio is) or given differant stats (give em +1 to WS and BS) given another wound, for 3 wound termies... or just removed. lot's of options. givbing em +1WS and BS would be a very minor change that'd proably be welcome.

The current meta is decided by all the things that Termie Armour just crumbles to.
Under the current statlines there's no way Terminators can work, with a more open statline - Guard cost 1ppm - Eldar can dodge bullets - type statlines maybe.

1st off, dreadnoughts are actually quite good. Not great, but still good. And 2nd, the leviathan dread, while expensive, is an absolute killing machine. And very tough to kill.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
1st off, dreadnoughts are actually quite good. Not great, but still good. And 2nd, the leviathan dread, while expensive, is an absolute killing machine. And very tough to kill.

I believe people in this thread are speaking of terminators or 'tactical dreadnought armour', not casterferrum, contemptor, deredeo etc. dreadnoughts.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Paladins are 55 points a piece. A lot of that is coming from paying for the extra wound and extra WS. And then they have the option for an Apothecary. What goes on with that when you add FNP standard?
Meganobz have that 2 wound profile to differentiate them from having a 5++ instead. So you'd be giving the Terminators even more benefits compared to them, so what ELSE needs to be given to Meganobz?
Also Death Guard Terminators would be 2+/5++/5+++ T5 for less than 40 points.

We're not talking about Paladins here. Nor are we talking about Meganobz, or anything else that's not the actual topic of this thread's conversation. We're actually discussing standard space marine terminators and what to do to them to make them viable. If you want to make Paladins even more tough, give them better FNP (4+) with the Apothecary if purchased. They're also already psykers and have higher WS/BS as you already noted. The whole ork codex needs an overhaul so I'm not going to go into Meganobz as that's a discussion for another thread.

But you cannot ignore everything else and just look at one unit and think it's done. That attitude is precisely why GW rules suck. We wouldn't BE in this mess with terminators if GW wouldn't have just looked at stuff in isolation!

Making terminators good would require a complete redesign of 40k. They really have no viable niche to fill as the game is. The ridiculous scale of the game right now means that there's just way too much firepower going around right now to make their resilience even remotely worth it.

nudibranch wrote:
I believe people in this thread are speaking of terminators or 'tactical dreadnought armour', not casterferrum, contemptor, deredeo etc. dreadnoughts.

Oops, sorry.

Fafnir wrote:Making terminators good would require a complete redesign of 40k. They really have no viable niche to fill as the game is. The ridiculous scale of the game right now means that there's just way too much firepower going around right now to make their resilience even remotely worth it.

The game scale is as large or small as you and your friends want it to be.
While the rules and model line are slanted now to larger games, that's not a bad thing in and of itself. If you prefer smaller or skirmish scale games, that's just personal preference. The larger scale games aren't inherently ridiculous.

I think AP in general needs a rework if it's going to be as prevalent as it is currently. Reducing armour saves a la old school 40k and AoS would be preferable and would still give high armour values an edge. If we keep AP the way it is amd want terminators to be useful, we would need to reduce the amount of AP2 in the game and I feel the damage has already been done in regards to that. Honestly, I'm going to echo what's been said above: 40K badly needs a reboot, not something as drastic as AoS, but it definitely needs an large overhaul.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

The game scale is as large or small as you and your friends want it to be.
While the rules and model line are slanted now to larger games, that's not a bad thing in and of itself. If you prefer smaller or skirmish scale games, that's just personal preference. The larger scale games aren't inherently ridiculous.

This is, to an extent, true. Which is why I pretty much play exclusively killteams at this point (where Terminators can't be used anyway, so that point's pretty irrelevant). Even in smaller games, terminators won't be getting their mileage, it's just that they become less and less efficient the bigger you get, and GW's intentions for the game just keep getting bigger and bigger. Hell, even the idea that Marines can be remotely horde-y these days is ridiculous.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

The game scale is as large or small as you and your friends want it to be.
While the rules and model line are slanted now to larger games, that's not a bad thing in and of itself. If you prefer smaller or skirmish scale games, that's just personal preference. The larger scale games aren't inherently ridiculous.

This. I always think it's weird when people behave as though they're somehow compelled to play a very open-ended game system in a very narrowly-defined way.

I think a look back to 4th might hold a simpler solution than what people get so heated about here.
Back in the day black templars had their old dex, with2 heavy weapons for 5man squads and veteran skills. And they were good, even competitive.
My suggestion would be to leave them as is, add that second weapon for 5 man (maybe a third for 10man as was suggested above ) and give special ammo to standards. Assaulttermies might get a proper special rule in comparison (monster hunter/ tank hunter i suppose, maybe PE) to keep up. This would also leave external balance as is, allowing different codices their own fluffy ways to get good terminators.
Now i would also like a survivability buff (always found it wierd, that tau suits improve toughnes and wounds while imperial suits of armor wouldn't...) but as this thread shows it would be hard to pull off without making them uber or irrelevant thanks to subpar damageoutput.
Jeez what a well of text... sorry

 Jaxler wrote:
What happens to paladins once all terminators get 2 wounds or whatever?

Make them cheaper or given them an extra wound. It is not like they are a great unit ATM they cost 55 a pop and come with a force sword and storm bolter. I mean that is only 10 points less then a lib who gets to pick their powers.

Older editions gave Terminators a 3+ save...on 2d6. That's a bit too much dice management though, so instead just give terminator armor a natural rerollable armor save. It's supposed to be practically immune to small arms fire, instead of that being its biggest weakness. Rerollable armor keeps the immunity to normal weaponry with a small chance of cracking through a lens or joint while anti armor guns remain its natural weakness.

Terminators being able to use their teleporters offensively is a good idea too. Make them able to use teleportation to smash into the enemy line akin to jump infantry. Instead of the faster movement though, make terminator assaults automatically pass up to 12" charges with no reduction for difficult terrain, with AP3 hammer of wraths to represent Terminators literally teleporting into your midst and tearing people apart inside out from displaced matter.

As far as ranged Terminators, they're supposed to be akin to walking tanks. Give them all 2 weapons that they can fire simultaneously, have specialized anti-air Terminators and dedicated fire support Terminators with dual assault cannons in both hands. Massive exoskeletons can support more than just a stormbolter!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Stormbolters S5 causes more issues though, they need their own version of the thing and that can be S5.

Literally ZERO issues are caused by a S5 universal Storm Bolter. Name one. Please. I insist.

Here's a starter.


Also makes heavy bolters even worse. A stormbolter, if it's getting any changes, should get more shots and/or shred maybe.

There are a few ways they can make them better but first and formost, the storm bolter needs to be a better weapon, tossing rapid fire and rending on it would be a damn good start
Next, they should get 2 heavy weapon choices

Now to make them not laughable and die they should have either

2 wounds / T5 / Sv 1+ (they still fail armor on a roll of 1 but still get an armor save of 2+ against ap 2)

The other thing, make it so terminators equipped with all melee weapons can charge out of deep strike with out getting the charge bonus attack. Nothing sucks more then deep striking knights, standing there like a jack ass and getting gunned down. Terminators are menat to be shock troopers, not teleport it and pick your nose oh look there is a fight models.

Make them immune to AP5+.

Give stormbolters rending, and maybe terminators are viable again. Maybe.

tneva82 wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Paladins are 55 points a piece. A lot of that is coming from paying for the extra wound and extra WS. And then they have the option for an Apothecary. What goes on with that when you add FNP standard?
Meganobz have that 2 wound profile to differentiate them from having a 5++ instead. So you'd be giving the Terminators even more benefits compared to them, so what ELSE needs to be given to Meganobz?
Also Death Guard Terminators would be 2+/5++/5+++ T5 for less than 40 points.

We're not talking about Paladins here. Nor are we talking about Meganobz, or anything else that's not the actual topic of this thread's conversation. We're actually discussing standard space marine terminators and what to do to them to make them viable. If you want to make Paladins even more tough, give them better FNP (4+) with the Apothecary if purchased. They're also already psykers and have higher WS/BS as you already noted. The whole ork codex needs an overhaul so I'm not going to go into Meganobz as that's a discussion for another thread.

But you cannot ignore everything else and just look at one unit and think it's done. That attitude is precisely why GW rules suck. We wouldn't BE in this mess with terminators if GW wouldn't have just looked at stuff in isolation!

THANK you for saying it before I could. Red Thirst doesn't understand how this issue goes beyond just fixing Loyalist Terminators.


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 n0t_u wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Stormbolters S5 causes more issues though, they need their own version of the thing and that can be S5.

Literally ZERO issues are caused by a S5 universal Storm Bolter. Name one. Please. I insist.

Here's a starter.


Also makes heavy bolters even worse. A stormbolter, if it's getting any changes, should get more shots and/or shred maybe.

So Grey Knights having S5 shooting is an issue? LOL k
Because the codex is super strong as is? Even the 5th edition was designed for 6th anyway and look how powerful it was in 6th. Bad answer but I give you credit for trying.

Also Heavy Bolters need to be fixed with Salvo 2/4 or being Heavy 4. Everyone already knows the Heavy Bolter is bad so I don't see how this really helps defend your point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
The Storm Bolter has fluff going back to the 80's. It's a double barreled bolter. That's it.

Designers need to respect fluff. Aesthetics and theme are without a doubt why 40k has survived until 2017.

Pointing out a few flaws in "fluff logic" doesn't mean abandoning it completely. Rather it's a chance to fix what's possible.

It is a different weapon compared to the Combi-Bolter. That acts more like a double barreled Bolter.

Actually I think it would be. I mean, the only T3 army that is actually rather competitive right now is Eldar, and making the other T3 armies more vulnerable to the supreme firepower of other armies would be pretty bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And that says nothing about how much more powerful GK would become against vehicles with that...

They were spooky enough 2nd, that's about it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Stormbolters S5 causes more issues though, they need their own version of the thing and that can be S5.

Literally ZERO issues are caused by a S5 universal Storm Bolter. Name one. Please. I insist.

Here's a starter.


Also makes heavy bolters even worse. A stormbolter, if it's getting any changes, should get more shots and/or shred maybe.

So Grey Knights having S5 shooting is an issue? LOL k
Because the codex is super strong as is? Even the 5th edition was designed for 6th anyway and look how powerful it was in 6th. Bad answer but I give you credit for trying.

I was going for the more amusing answer cause like I wasn't quite sure anyway but went with it cause daemons.
I think the issues with the terminators likely only got worse with the release of the centurions as they're kind of like pushed out of what seemed like their role leaving them as expensive glorified tacticals now and last time I checked those sucked too. I don't know, they're meant to be the sledgehammer of the marines but instead we get this.

Still at the same time I don't want to see the stormbolter start stepping on the toes of the heavy bolter as yet another issue is created where the heavy bolter is even worse. Given its rate of fire the stormbolter should more likely be looked at as like a possible smaller version of the assault cannon and perhaps 4 shots at s4 ap4 with rending would work. However then we get back to the grey knights and if that's a good idea on a larger scale. So that's kind of why I think they should just give terminators a different version of the stormbolter rather than a global change to stormbolters cause we all know GW won't look at things outside of a vacuum and thus likely screw that up too.