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I too don't understand how following the rules is "beardy"

 Whitebeard wrote:
I've noticed most people don't care if you land within an inch of an enemy, as long as you can place them decently without it becoming a mess, or without having to move models or terrain out of the way.

I'm curious - What sort of people do you play with and what sort of scene do you play in?

 Whitebeard wrote:
But I will notice there are players who watch every step as you begin placing units from deep strike/summoning, they carefully look to see if any base comes within the holy sacred one inch of another model. I usually just let opponents drop their stuff down unless it HAS to land on another model. Other than that, I don't care. Being anal about .3 of an inch could cost someone the game, as the mishap could destroy a 500 point unit. I just don't want to be that guy.

If someone is really going to call you TFG for at least attempting to follow the rules, then they're not worth playing against. Also, why would this - particularly this example - make you That Guy? The person followed the rules, they took a risk and they lost a 500-Point unit. That doesn't make you That Guy, it just means they took a risk and it backfired.

 Whitebeard wrote:
Personally I hate the deep strike rules.

Why?

 Whitebeard wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Do you care abaout that 1" now. If you don´t then I will use the melta rule when 7" away.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Yes it does. If you're not finicky about the whole 1" business and want to dismiss it all together, then why should others be finicky about other distances?

 Whitebeard wrote:

Honestly I don't like the 1 inch rule. In this game 1 inch represents something like 10 feet so it's pretty stupid.

It's pointless. If they aren't in base to base contact, then who cares. 40k is chocked full of restrictive rules that do nothing but clutter the game up.

This statement does nothing but paint you as someone who will talk about quitting 40K every other week because the rules are bullgak or something.

Perhaps he is one of those guys who doesn't make automatic gaussian distributions of that 2d6 + scatter inside of their heads.

If so it isn't really that hard.

Just know that only 1/3th of the scatter die is a hit and if it is a miss you will most likely roll a number close to 7. So think in circles, and make a evaluation of what you think would be an acceptable risk before you deep strike your guys in.

The whole deepstrike mishap if you are within 1" is one of the last tactical elements in this game. Its something that your opponent can actually have influence on and can use as a fun way to defend his soft targets against deepstrikers.

Sounds like someone scattered poorly. Ive won a game in a tournament because of deep strike mishaps, and ive lot because i took a risk and scattered a full 12" off the nearest board edge.

 Peregrine wrote:

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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
That's why I use the Drop Pods to find out how argumentive my opponent plans to be on these matters - drop that nice little Drop Pod base template and slide it towards their 1" zones, if they make the tells like reaching for their tape measure prepare to argue every borderline result.
If they don't make any tells slide that pod template back away from the borderline and enjoy the game, most your opponent will want is a look through your blast and flame remplates.

IOW, try to cheat and if your opponent shows any sign of objecting to you taking a little extra distance to your advantage then argue them on everything? You sound like you're lots of fun to play against.

Do you twist everything just for gaks and giggles? You sound like loads of fun to spend time with for any reason.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
That's why I use the Drop Pods to find out how argumentive my opponent plans to be on these matters - drop that nice little Drop Pod base template and slide it towards their 1" zones, if they make the tells like reaching for their tape measure prepare to argue every borderline result.
If they don't make any tells slide that pod template back away from the borderline and enjoy the game, most your opponent will want is a look through your blast and flame remplates.

IOW, try to cheat and if your opponent shows any sign of objecting to you taking a little extra distance to your advantage then argue them on everything? You sound like you're lots of fun to play against.

In no way did he say he was going to cheat there. He is talking about gauging your opponent by seeing how anal they are about specific distance. purposefully look to scatter on an opponents units with a drop pod and say "I stop 1" away happy with that?" If the opponent gets the tape measure out for determining where a drop pod goes 1" away is harsh. That is unless it looks to be getting it within range of an objective and could mean game points.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
That's why I use the Drop Pods to find out how argumentive my opponent plans to be on these matters - drop that nice little Drop Pod base template and slide it towards their 1" zones, if they make the tells like reaching for their tape measure prepare to argue every borderline result.
If they don't make any tells slide that pod template back away from the borderline and enjoy the game, most your opponent will want is a look through your blast and flame remplates.

IOW, try to cheat and if your opponent shows any sign of objecting to you taking a little extra distance to your advantage then argue them on everything? You sound like you're lots of fun to play against.

Do you twist everything just for gaks and giggles? You sound like loads of fun to spend time with for any reason.

Peregrine may be exaggerating but it does sound like you are trying to test your opponent's tolerance for cheating. And then committing to make their game unpleasant because they wouldn't let you cheese the distances. I mean, would you like it if I just took an extra inch in charge moves? Shooting? Scatter?


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 rawne2510 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
That's why I use the Drop Pods to find out how argumentive my opponent plans to be on these matters - drop that nice little Drop Pod base template and slide it towards their 1" zones, if they make the tells like reaching for their tape measure prepare to argue every borderline result.
If they don't make any tells slide that pod template back away from the borderline and enjoy the game, most your opponent will want is a look through your blast and flame remplates.

IOW, try to cheat and if your opponent shows any sign of objecting to you taking a little extra distance to your advantage then argue them on everything? You sound like you're lots of fun to play against.

In no way did he say he was going to cheat there. He is talking about gauging your opponent by seeing how anal they are about specific distance. purposefully look to scatter on an opponents units with a drop pod and say "I stop 1" away happy with that?" If the opponent gets the tape measure out for determining where a drop pod goes 1" away is harsh. That is unless it looks to be getting it within range of an objective and could mean game points.

How is following the rules being anal?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Do you twist everything just for gaks and giggles? You sound like loads of fun to spend time with for any reason.

It's right there in your own words. You attempt to place the drop pod within the 1" bubble (or at least act like you're going to do so), which is cheating. Then, if they reach for their tape measure to confirm that you are in fact placing the drop pod illegally you say "prepare to argue every borderline result". No matter how you try to justify your little game what you are doing is attempting to cheat as a test for your opponent.

 rawne2510 wrote:
In no way did he say he was going to cheat there. He is talking about gauging your opponent by seeing how anal they are about specific distance. purposefully look to scatter on an opponents units with a drop pod and say "I stop 1" away happy with that?" If the opponent gets the tape measure out for determining where a drop pod goes 1" away is harsh. That is unless it looks to be getting it within range of an objective and could mean game points.

Deliberately placing a drop pod within 1" of a unit is cheating (unless you want a deliberate mishap for some weird reason). And I don't see why you consider following the rules and measuring the 1" distance to be "harsh". I've seen plenty of situations come down to a distance of 0.5" or less, so why should I accept "that looks about right" as an acceptable way of moving models?

(And, unless the new codex has changed something, if you put your drop pod within 1" before rolling the scatter dice it's a mishap, the scatter reduction ability can only reduce scatter distance to save you from a mishap. If even reducing it to zero won't save the pod then you get a mishap.)

He never said he was putting it within 1"

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
That's why I use the Drop Pods to find out how argumentive my opponent plans to be on these matters - drop that nice little Drop Pod base template and slide it towards their 1" zones, if they make the tells like reaching for their tape measure prepare to argue every borderline result.
If they don't make any tells slide that pod template back away from the borderline and enjoy the game, most your opponent will want is a look through your blast and flame remplates.

IOW, try to cheat and if your opponent shows any sign of objecting to you taking a little extra distance to your advantage then argue them on everything? You sound like you're lots of fun to play against.

Do you twist everything just for gaks and giggles? You sound like loads of fun to spend time with for any reason.

Or maybe people don't like being part of somebody's strange psychological experiments? Put yourself in your opponent's shoes: if it were me I wouldn't whip out my tape measure the moment you seemed to cross the 1" line but I might raise an eyebrow or mention that you need to make sure you're over 1" away. If it looks like that's where you're trying to actually put the pod then I will say something. If you then decide that makes me a rules-lawyering TFG then from my perspective it doesn't paint a good picture of you as a player either. How about you keep the pod over 1" away, avoid the whole situation, and play the game instead of performing your weird behavioural studies?

Also you can´t place the model within 1" to start with.

 rawne2510 wrote:
He never said he was putting it within 1"

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
drop that nice little Drop Pod base template and slide it towards their 1" zones

He might not actually get it all the way into the 1" limit before concluding his ridiculous experiment, but the explicit point is to act like he's going to cheat and see if the other person allows the cheating or makes a move to dispute the placement.

So you would call him out as a cheater before he actually cheats. That shows a lot about your way of playing as well as his.


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The other option is that everyone is required to buy the plastic rulers with the 1", 2" and 6" pre defined sides. If everyone is using these then measuring the smaller distances are easier than trying to do it with a tape measure.

 rawne2510 wrote:
So you would call him out as a cheater before he actually cheats. That shows a lot about your way of playing as well as his.

Deliberately moving a unit into an illegal position is cheating. And it's still cheating even if you get caught before you get it there. It's like if you catch your opponent trying to move their models into a better position while they think you aren't looking, even if they've only started to grab the model before getting caught the intent to cheat is still there. What Dakka Wolf is doing is acting like he's going to cheat to see what reaction he gets, and he openly admits it.

At no point did he ever say he was putting it within 1" though.

Ok how much do you hate someone measuring how far you can deploy a unit out of a vehicle before you have even picked up your tape measure. measuring all your weapon ranges for you and how far you can move your models.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So you actually enjoy arguing every clipping template?

Define 'clipping'.

Since 'partials' were done away with, it's now dead easy to see. If part of the template touches part of your base, you're hit. Nice and straight forward. If it's hard to tell because we rarely get to place templates flat on the board? I'd take the hit - it'll learn me to spread my troops out more in future.

At the end of the day, it's near impossible to make 100% accurate measurements in 40k - simply because boards are often cluttered, preventing easy 'base to base' measurement in all but the most isolated of circumstances (such as a clear line between two models with nothing at all in the way). So we need to be reasonable with each other.

Deep Striking? Well, the rules allow us to measure anything at any time, yes? So for your first dude, pop him down, and take your measurement from there (though to me, good sportsmanship would include telling me the distance you just measured). From there, it's much easier to work out the scatter, and whether or not one of the unit is at all likely to wind up within 1" of my unit, especially as we know base sizes - it all becomes very easy to work out.

Honestly? I've never had such bizarre conversations of 'I'll just ignore that rule, because it's just clutter' or 'argue every clipping template'. It just doesn't come up with my gaming group - and as many of them are tournament goers, it's not down to us being casual (though I'm more casual than a football hooligan in a lounge lizard suit). But casual or 'deciding game for 1st Place in the Champion of the Universe 40k Tournament with Wimmins and Munnehs At Stake', if your unit comes within 1" of mine when deepstriking, you're rolling on that chart matey.

Jup I do not get it either. I enjoy the clear cut rules really. Just premeasure it, call the distance beforehand and if it touches its is in if it is a fraction out its out. Clear cut and simple. I never want to go back again to those times of discussing about in or out in a game.

Since 'partials' were done away with, it's now dead easy to see. If part of the template touches part of your base, you're hit. Nice and straight forward.

There's literally nothing straight forward about it. When tons of models are placed together, and you have to hold the template above spears and monstrous creatures, with trees sticking in the way, sometimes there is literally no telling what is in and what is not.

As for my original post, to be honest, I was actually more frustrated with the rules than any opponent I've played against. Oh well.

So, again, you are frustrated by the rules so you claim everyone who follows them are neckbeards?

 troa wrote:
So, again, you are frustrated by the rules so you claim everyone who follows them are neckbeards?

It will be ok. You can calm down now. I have.

 Peregrine wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
He never said he was putting it within 1"

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
drop that nice little Drop Pod base template and slide it towards their 1" zones

He might not actually get it all the way into the 1" limit before concluding his ridiculous experiment, but the explicit point is to act like he's going to cheat and see if the other person allows the cheating or makes a move to dispute the placement.

I'm pretty much "casual at all costs" and I 100% agree with this. If you're holding your drop pod like you're going to place it within an inch I'm going to say "you'll need to back that away" and if they don't I'll pull out a tape measure. It'd be the same as if it looks like you're placing models further than I know they can move, or saying you're in range when I know you can't be in range to shoot my stuff.

"Pretending to cheat" is the same as "trying to cheat", I'll call you out as you're doing it so you don't place the model and then get mad when I try to get it moved afterwards. Because the only way this stupid social experiment will work is if you're holding it clearly within 1" long enough for me to see that you are, and that if it's there long enough that I notice it implies that you think it goes there.

At the risk of making an extreme argument, would be the same as pointing a gun at someone. You didn't shoot them, but the implication that you might can still get you arrested.

I don't like to worry about this, so that's why I like melta guns over infernus pistols.

 Whitebeard wrote:

Since 'partials' were done away with, it's now dead easy to see. If part of the template touches part of your base, you're hit. Nice and straight forward.

There's literally nothing straight forward about it. When tons of models are placed together, and you have to hold the template above spears and monstrous creatures, with trees sticking in the way, sometimes there is literally no telling what is in and what is not.

What?

Ok. As has already been stated - does the template touch or cover any part of the model's base? If answer is yes then the model is hit. How is that not straightforward?

The templates are also...get this...transparent. You literally hold it above the target area, look down and simply count. That's really not that difficult. Spears? Spears made the damn job easier in Fantasy because the damn spears often could hold the template up ON THEIR OWN.

This isn't difficult. This really isn't a challenge. Not wanting to take that extra second or two to accurately count what is covered and what isn't is a problem with your mindset, not your opponent's.

There's being flexible with the rules (ack, you forgot to shoot, fair enough, I'll let it through or yeah, that dice isn't 100%, reroll mate) and there's trying to blatantly cheat (Oops, I'm within one inch, you'll let that slide, won't you?).

Cheating is cheating. No matter how casual or competitive an environment you're in. If you're playing friendly games then I suggest you learn to stop cheating. Because even your mates will eventually give up and not want anything to do with you. And if you go to any sort of remotely competitive event? Don't be surprised if you get thrown out on your arse and don't get your refund for your ticket.

Deep striking into terrain doesn't cause mishaps anymore anyway. Just terrain tests.

I just follow the rules
If you're within an inch (despite how well you placed them) then you got DS Mishap

If you're not within and inch, then i dont care

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Whitebeard wrote:

Since 'partials' were done away with, it's now dead easy to see. If part of the template touches part of your base, you're hit. Nice and straight forward.

There's literally nothing straight forward about it. When tons of models are placed together, and you have to hold the template above spears and monstrous creatures, with trees sticking in the way, sometimes there is literally no telling what is in and what is not.

What?

Ok. As has already been stated - does the template touch or cover any part of the model's base? If answer is yes then the model is hit. How is that not straightforward?

The templates are also...get this...transparent. You literally hold it above the target area, look down and simply count. That's really not that difficult. Spears? Spears made the damn job easier in Fantasy because the damn spears often could hold the template up ON THEIR OWN.

This isn't difficult. This really isn't a challenge. Not wanting to take that extra second or two to accurately count what is covered and what isn't is a problem with your mindset, not your opponent's.

.

Dang, that's crazy how you've NEVER had an issue with models at the edge of templates when there is a lot of junk in the way.

I don't know what it's like to be that perfect. To have hands that steady, with eagle eyes. I wish it was that easy for me. But I am only a mere mortal.

 Whitebeard wrote:
Dang, that's crazy how you've NEVER had an issue with models at the edge of templates when there is a lot of junk in the way.

I don't know what it's like to be that perfect. To have hands that steady, with eagle eyes. I wish it was that easy for me. But I am only a mere mortal.

Do you have Parkinson's? Holding a template steady for 3 seconds isn't that hard. And you're looking down a foot, is your eyesight that bad that you can't see something a foot away? What models are so large with bases so small that it's impossible to see the base at all?

Only time I got serious about DS rules is when my opponent recently deep striked a unit of GK terminators with his librarian by my unit of chosen, didn't scatter and then decided that he misplaced them, and moved the whole group 6" away to be in front of my havoc squad. He said he meant to do that, and because it was his original intent, he didn't need to roll for scatter. I asked him to reroll since he moved the whole unit so far away. Thankfully, my group is friendly, so after mentioning how I would have been fine with an inch, 6 is a bit much he rerolled.

I think we need to accept that people will have different standards of acceptable behavior/practise and try and be less unpleasant when discussing said differences.


Thank you.

A nice way to play I recently saw during a filmed tournament (I forget which) is agreeing with your opponent on distances etc. as you move/deploy etc.

So it avoids the waste of time of having to be extremely accurate with measurements and placements in favour of 'all these guys will be at least X" away from that unit, that ok?'

usually with a clarification as to why 'to avoid their interceptor shots' for example.

That way you can just speed the game up and not have too many disputes.