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I hope so

 Brutallica wrote:
This is probably the change that i actually dont like.

I mean, if you dont have hard alphastrike units or you roll gak. The enemy is gonna run away and you basicly just advanced deeper into a gunline. I have a slight feeling the extra 1 wound on terminators arent gonna quite make them great again.

I hope im wrong.

I mean, they're gonna move. On your turn, you could just move up and charge them again if you really want. What you're really worried about is not being able to use 'locked in combat' as a way to avoid getting shot off the board, which has less to do with movement and more to do with the sheer power of shooting in 7th. We don't know if it's gonna be that bad now. Surviving a round of gunfire might not be the daunting proposition it is now. Point costs and abilities might change enough it's easier to threat overload an opponent too so you'd have multiple assault units for your next turn.

 Brutallica wrote:
This is probably the change that i actually dont like.

I mean, if you dont have hard alphastrike units or you roll gak. The enemy is gonna run away and you basicly just advanced deeper into a gunline. I have a slight feeling the extra 1 wound on terminators arent gonna quite make them great again.

I hope im wrong.

This is the reason why I don't believe overwatch will be a thing in 8th. You have a lot more freedom in a gunline to shoot advancing assault armies, so I think overwatch will be scrapped. I could be wrong though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
This is probably the change that i actually dont like.

I mean, if you dont have hard alphastrike units or you roll gak. The enemy is gonna run away and you basicly just advanced deeper into a gunline. I have a slight feeling the extra 1 wound on terminators arent gonna quite make them great again.

I hope im wrong.

I mean, they're gonna move. On your turn, you could just move up and charge them again if you really want. What you're really worried about is not being able to use 'locked in combat' as a way to avoid getting shot off the board, which has less to do with movement and more to do with the sheer power of shooting in 7th. We don't know if it's gonna be that bad now. Surviving a round of gunfire might not be the daunting proposition it is now. Point costs and abilities might change enough it's easier to threat overload an opponent too so you'd have multiple assault units for your next turn.

I agree. I think an entire unit being unable to do anything that turn is a big enough penalty and works perfectly well in AoS. It just prevents tarpitting, which was annoying. Also, being able to charge out of transports means assault armies will presumably be able to have more options to avoiding gunline fire.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Overall, I'm ok with the concept.

But I don't think it should happen automatically, or for free. There should be some kind of test to see if you get away (both sides roll a dice, add movement, highest value decides who leaves or stays), or maybe lose models based on a leadership test.

But the idea of just "I'm leaving now, bye" like in AoS, is a bit silly.

According to the post they made, you make the decision to fall back on your movement phase, and then the leaving unit cannot move, shoot or charge that turn. Essentially your unit to fall back will have to just stand there to be fired by enemy army.
This sounds very good change, the player who wants to be in melee will want to have multiple good melee units instead of one big star, as it should. And actually this thing sounds even more realistic, how ridiculous is it that one squad of yours is in melee with huge scary melee unit, and then no one fires at it! They just sit and watch their friends die.

This might even encourage traditionally shooty armies to take multiple kind of tarpitting units to protect the shooting elements, ending up making the game more balanced as there maybe wouldnt be 100% shooting lists.

I am hoping overwatch is a command point ability.

I think we are seeing the compromise that allows for turn 1 charges and assaulting out of vehicles. The problem with CC was it was too sticky, Now that people can just leave (albeit at the risk of getting charged again) ranged armies like the Tau can better respond to melee threats.

One thing that occurs to me is that this makes multi-assaulting (assuming it still exists) huge. Running away is not such a great option if it means having large portions of your army incapable of doing anything for the next turn. It also makes things like durable, fast, but not killy units good for assaulting your opponents good shooting units.

Breng77 wrote:
One thing that occurs to me is that this makes multi-assaulting (assuming it still exists) huge. Running away is not such a great option if it means having large portions of your army incapable of doing anything for the next turn. It also makes things like durable, fast, but not killy units good for assaulting your opponents good shooting units.

OOOOOOooooooohhhhhh

 Grimgold wrote:
I think we are seeing the compromise that allows for turn 1 charges and assaulting out of vehicles. The problem with CC was it was too sticky, Now that people can just leave (albeit at the risk of getting charged again) ranged armies like the Tau can better respond to melee threats.

Maybe ive missed something. But where is that risk?

You move the unit out at the start of the turn, then move around the melee unit with your other units, shoot it down. Risk of getting charged = Gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
One thing that occurs to me is that this makes multi-assaulting (assuming it still exists) huge. Running away is not such a great option if it means having large portions of your army incapable of doing anything for the next turn. It also makes things like durable, fast, but not killy units good for assaulting your opponents good shooting units.

Good point, and if you can assault out of rhinos. GW are gonna sell plastic like there is no tormorrow

I like the movement values for each unit, it better represents a faster or slower unit (Harlequins should outrun Termies for instance). Hopefully this "advance" feature is something simple like 2xmovement instead of a die roll, would speed up the process more and be reliable.

Loved this new addition. No more snake-eyes-rolling Pathfinders holding people for 3 turns!

 Brutallica wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
I think we are seeing the compromise that allows for turn 1 charges and assaulting out of vehicles. The problem with CC was it was too sticky, Now that people can just leave (albeit at the risk of getting charged again) ranged armies like the Tau can better respond to melee threats.

Maybe ive missed something. But where is that risk?

You move the unit out at the start of the turn, then move around the melee unit with your other units, shoot it down. Risk of getting charged = Gone.

The risk is there because none of that is guaranteed. First, you need your other units in the right place which doesn't always happen, and then the unit has to be completely destroyed in one shooting phase, which has a possibility to not happen. So that unit might be alive to charge again. The unit doesn't just die because you walked away from it and target it with other units - and what if killing it isn't even a priority but more about avoiding inconvenience? So there's how there could be a risk of being charged again.

Hmm no more cool aid manning through walls and running happening at the time of movement? this game is looking better and better.

 Grimgold wrote:
I think we are seeing the compromise that allows for turn 1 charges and assaulting out of vehicles. The problem with CC was it was too sticky, Now that people can just leave (albeit at the risk of getting charged again) ranged armies like the Tau can better respond to melee threats.

Well depend on how widespread is Turn 1 charges...I mean if only 1-2 units in an army can pull it off consistently fine...But if 4-5 units can then that is a different story...

Now that you can withdraw and have other units shoot at the enemy, you can set up a picket to protect valuable units without fear of blocking your own shots. It will require new tactics but that's one of the exciting things about a new edition, shaking up the meta, turning convention on its head, and figuring out new ways to tear your opponent down.

keep in mind that if you bubble wrap, then fall back, you may suddenly provide cover to the unit that had assaulted you against the shooting you intend to put into it.

Think the D6+Movement advance is weak sauce personally (and I say that as someone who uses it in my own game). Just double the damn Movement.

Once again, despite saying the opposite...you're going to end up with MORE special rules to increase movement for certain units. This is a stupid decision and...again, contrary to what they state, actually adds more time to the game (one more dice roll for every unit in your game you want to run). Just use 2nd, and double it.

 Elbows wrote:
Think the D6+Movement advance is weak sauce personally (and I say that as someone who uses it in my own game). Just double the damn Movement.

Once again, despite saying the opposite...you're going to end up with MORE special rules to increase movement for certain units. This is a stupid decision and...again, contrary to what they state, actually adds more time to the game (one more dice roll for every unit in your game you want to run). Just use 2nd, and double it.

It isn't more time than the current model though. You are already rolling for every unit you want to run. Only now you are measuring distance for them twice each turn. Also fewer units will run now because there won't be times where you think you might shoot, but your target dies and you run instead. Sure double move is quicker, but that makes high movement super powerful (if I have a 12" move I now run 24") We don't know for sure every unit will run D6, there might be special rules like turbo boost that change it for certain units.

 Elbows wrote:
Think the D6+Movement advance is weak sauce personally (and I say that as someone who uses it in my own game). Just double the damn Movement.

Once again, despite saying the opposite...you're going to end up with MORE special rules to increase movement for certain units. This is a stupid decision and...again, contrary to what they state, actually adds more time to the game (one more dice roll for every unit in your game you want to run). Just use 2nd, and double it.

A flat doubling of movement is far more advantageous to already fast units than slow units. It would also quickly get out of hand for fast vehicles, since they use the same rule set.

A meganob moving 8" instead of 4" is manageable. A jetbike with a 12" move suddenly being able to go 24" risks breaking the game.

Tarpitting wasn't only annoying, it was a very powerful mechanic that when played well could tip the match in your favor.

Having a great tar pit forces your opponent to move his assault units along other routes, which allows me to line up my guns on those routes, which forces him to shoot at those units first.

Having this tarpit option in my army now allows my other units more movement, not less, since the scary rerolling lol-star is now nudged in another direction or into a certain path.

If played with an active tactic, its much less boring.

I'm not saying that the change in movement as presented for 8th is a bad thing, just that it changes the mechanic and encourages different movement, not automatically more movement across the board just like that.

This pleases me. They said in a previous article that Hormagaunts run faster than I believe Eldar, or was it jet bikes as an example of move speeds. Rest assured, no matter how far all of the prey runs, they will be caught.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Think the D6+Movement advance is weak sauce personally (and I say that as someone who uses it in my own game). Just double the damn Movement.

Once again, despite saying the opposite...you're going to end up with MORE special rules to increase movement for certain units. This is a stupid decision and...again, contrary to what they state, actually adds more time to the game (one more dice roll for every unit in your game you want to run). Just use 2nd, and double it.

A flat doubling of movement is far more advantageous to already fast units than slow units. It would also quickly get out of hand for fast vehicles, since they use the same rule set.

A meganob moving 8" instead of 4" is manageable. A jetbike with a 12" move suddenly being able to go 24" risks breaking the game.

Do you mean the jetbikes that can currently move up to 84" in one turn compared to the 6" (+2d6 if charging) of a meganob? Having them go a whole 24" would be so broken!

Disappointed about being able to walk out of assaults. Tarpitting bigger squiggly beasts with my grots was always funny, and making sure you didn't get the crap shot out of you whle you were advancing up field as really important to the health of your unit. This seems more of a boon to units that don't want to be in assault, because even if that unit can't do anything that turn after retreating it's still preferable to not being able to do anything, getting your butt kicked, and also preventing your army from shooting that unit.

Combined with apparently sweeping advance going away, and I'm kinda worried about the capability of assault units to kill other units.

Edit: Hopefully overwatch is no longer a thing that just happens (since a combination of "running away and overwatching the unit attempting to catch up" would be maddening), and perhaps locking a unit in melee is a command ability.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Disappointed about being able to walk out of assaults. Tarpitting bigger squiggly beasts with my grots was always funny, and making sure you didn't get the crap shot out of you whle you were advancing up field as really important to the health of your unit. This seems more of a boon to units that don't want to be in assault, because even if that unit can't do anything that turn after retreating it's still preferable to not being able to do anything, getting your butt kicked, and also preventing your army from shooting that unit. Combined with apparently sweeping advance going away, and I'm kinda worried about the capability of assault units to kill other units.

If you tar pitted a large squiggly beast and it leaves combat then its not doing anything for the rest of its turn. i see no problem.

but think about how great it will be if the squishy grots are relatively quick! They can run up, provide cover the whole time, and then absorb charges and cause pinning on choice targets.

 roflmajog wrote:

Do you mean the jetbikes that can currently move up to 84" in one turn compared to the 6" (+2d6 if charging) of a meganob? Having them go a whole 24" would be so broken!

1) The point was in the concept, not the specific example.
2) Jetbikes being able to move 84" in one turn doesn't strike me as a desirable game mechanic.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Think the D6+Movement advance is weak sauce personally (and I say that as someone who uses it in my own game). Just double the damn Movement.

Once again, despite saying the opposite...you're going to end up with MORE special rules to increase movement for certain units. This is a stupid decision and...again, contrary to what they state, actually adds more time to the game (one more dice roll for every unit in your game you want to run). Just use 2nd, and double it.

A flat doubling of movement is far more advantageous to already fast units than slow units. It would also quickly get out of hand for fast vehicles, since they use the same rule set.

A meganob moving 8" instead of 4" is manageable. A jetbike with a 12" move suddenly being able to go 24" risks breaking the game.

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

 Desubot wrote:
If you tar pitted a large squiggly beast and it leaves combat then its not doing anything for the rest of its turn. i see no problem.

The difference is potentially one turn of inconvenience vs potentially several turns of inconvenience :V

There's also the question of how far the retreat move is. you move your full movement or higher, I could see some units you manage to assault once... and then they just move away and you never catch them again.

I do imagine that retreating doesn't allow you to move through units, so if you surround the target that might lock them in as well. So that grot hold down might still apply!.. as long as you're not force to move the shortest distance with assault like currently

This really all comes down to how assault will work if retreating is a mild annoyance or a major devastation to assault armies

nordsturmking wrote:

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

A flat 3" or so of extra movement wouldn't have been a bad idea. GW does love its dice rolls, though.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:


There's also the question of how far the retreat move is. you move your full movement or higher, I could see some units you manage to assault once... and then they just move away and you never catch them again.

They run away their whole move and are stuck; you get to move, and then charge.

we're talking about tactics now in a game whose full rules we don't know; its kinda pointless.

Bubble wrap was a thing, and will still be a thing. Having to deal with it was always a question, and looks like it still will be. What tools we have to do so will be an interesting thing to figure out, but there's no reason to think the sky is falling just because it changed.