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 Formerly Wu wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

A flat 3" or so of extra movement wouldn't have been a bad idea. GW does love its dice rolls, though.

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

 Desubot wrote:

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

Some people seem to be allergic to that idea.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

A flat 3" or so of extra movement wouldn't have been a bad idea. GW does love its dice rolls, though.

Why not half? Is math really that hard?

Still it allows for it to be balanced by randomness instead of taking responsibility for defining it for every unit from the M stat.

Breng77 wrote:
It depends on the narrative you build in your mind. Because movement, shooting, and melee are all limited to specific times it can sometimes seem like "I'm leaving now bye" but it might be accurate to think of the last round of combat as a fighting withdrawal, with the movement not depicted until the proper phase. Similar to how units that move and then charge now aren't really moving, stopping, then moving again in "reality"

I like the visual of the fighting withdrawal. It makes units being able to leave combat feel better in my head. Thanks!

Sadly withdrawing from a fight would have been as simple as making an Initiative check...but then those disappeared.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Disappointed about being able to walk out of assaults. Tarpitting bigger squiggly beasts with my grots was always funny, and making sure you didn't get the crap shot out of you whle you were advancing up field as really important to the health of your unit. This seems more of a boon to units that don't want to be in assault, because even if that unit can't do anything that turn after retreating it's still preferable to not being able to do anything, getting your butt kicked, and also preventing your army from shooting that unit.

Combined with apparently sweeping advance going away, and I'm kinda worried about the capability of assault units to kill other units.

I actually think it would be cool if not only defenders could fall back from combat, but assaulting units could push through. No more dreadnoughts sitting 6" away from away from a Weirdboy but unable to advance due to a handful of grots.

People should be able to use some units to screen and protect other units, but I don't think it should be as much of a hard stop as it is. Like, maybe a unit can give up its attacks and move as though through dangerous terrain to try to push through? The defending unit could basically still chase and attack them the entire way, but wouldn't be able to fully stop them. Maybe only certain units like Terminator Assault Squads or Meganobz can bully their way through, or they get a bonus to doing so. Maybe some units like Hive Guard or Imperial Fists Veterans are a hard stop that can't be pushed through.

It's probably too clunky of a mechanic to implement, so I won't be too sad if it's not included.

 Elbows wrote:
Sadly withdrawing from a fight would have been as simple as making an Initiative check...but then those disappeared.

Which would've only benefited the high I races.. Because we really wanted Eldar to have ANOTHER benefit over slower I races didn't we?

Dark Eldar would've loved it, but giving Eldar another one is just.. iffy.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

A flat 3" or so of extra movement wouldn't have been a bad idea. GW does love its dice rolls, though.

Why not half? Is math really that hard?

Still it allows for it to be balanced by randomness instead of taking responsibility for defining it for every unit from the M stat.

I assume you mean round down to half? Hm could work. And i can't see why i should be a dice role. Why should RNGesus decide how fast a unit runs. Shouldn’t they run equally fast?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Disappointed about being able to walk out of assaults. Tarpitting bigger squiggly beasts with my grots was always funny, and making sure you didn't get the crap shot out of you whle you were advancing up field as really important to the health of your unit. This seems more of a boon to units that don't want to be in assault, because even if that unit can't do anything that turn after retreating it's still preferable to not being able to do anything, getting your butt kicked, and also preventing your army from shooting that unit.

Combined with apparently sweeping advance going away, and I'm kinda worried about the capability of assault units to kill other units.

I actually think it would be cool if not only defenders could fall back from combat, but assaulting units could push through. No more dreadnoughts sitting 6" away from away from a Weirdboy but unable to advance due to a handful of grots.

People should be able to use some units to screen and protect other units, but I don't think it should be as much of a hard stop as it is. Like, maybe a unit can give up its attacks and move as though through dangerous terrain to try to push through? The defending unit could basically still chase and attack them the entire way, but wouldn't be able to fully stop them. Maybe only certain units like Terminator Assault Squads or Meganobz can bully their way through, or they get a bonus to doing so. Maybe some units like Hive Guard or Imperial Fists Veterans are a hard stop that can't be pushed through.

It's probably too clunky of a mechanic to implement, so I won't be too sad if it's not included.

I like that idea but only the winner should be able to push through. Would create the opportunity for epic situations. Like Space Marines trying to hack their way trough masses of Gants or Guardsmen to get to an objective for example.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Sadly withdrawing from a fight would have been as simple as making an Initiative check...but then those disappeared.

Which would've only benefited the high I races.. Because we really wanted Eldar to have ANOTHER benefit over slower I races didn't we?

Dark Eldar would've loved it, but giving Eldar another one is just.. iffy.

And whose to say that some Eldar/Dark Eldar units may not have the capacity to not be impeded after withdrawing from a fight?

Eldar units, no matter the source, have often crazy rules to allow them to be expensive and frail.

nordsturmking wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

A flat 3" or so of extra movement wouldn't have been a bad idea. GW does love its dice rolls, though.

Why not half? Is math really that hard?

Still it allows for it to be balanced by randomness instead of taking responsibility for defining it for every unit from the M stat.

I assume you mean round down to half? Hm could work. And i can't see why i should be a dice role. Why should RNGesus decide how fast a unit runs. Shouldn’t they run equally fast?

GW has given a fluff reason for the role of dice involved with Running, so I won't address that.

However, when it comes to balance, let's face it, no matter the implementation of a set number, be it a variable off the M stat or a solid number, some units will benefit more than others from it. A low bonus will benefit slower units more while a higher bonus will make fast units obnoxious. Enter the die. Its role is to balance it out so that no one unit gains too much advantage out of it.

It also speeds up development, as it removes responsibility for balancing a unit on the ramifications of Running (and maybe Charging) from its M stat. That usually gets screwed up by the Eldar and Tyranids, anyway, no matter the movement method.

It may be a lazy step of development, but it can also cause quite a stir of "made it" or "oh crap, that's useless". Randomness brings out more cheers and moans in a game than anything with set numbers does.

My gun line can fall back now.

I'm loving this.

They basically just ported over the AoS system of falling back out of combat. And I can tell you its really not that big of a deal. Granted 40k has more shooting, but they did say combat would be stronger. In AoS you can only retreat if you end your move at least 3 inches away, so if you are in a large combat and you have a not so great move you're kinda stuck. It really forces you to position your melee units better to trap them.

 Traditio wrote:
My gun line can fall back now.

I'm loving this.

Little early for that, we have 0 idea who/what benefits from this because we don't know how the rest of the systems work.

I also like the fact that they said that you can't go through solid walls.

That's a big nerf to bikes.


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 Don Savik wrote:
They basically just ported over the AoS system of falling back out of combat. And I can tell you its really not that big of a deal. Granted 40k has more shooting, but they did say combat would be stronger. In AoS you can only retreat if you end your move at least 3 inches away, so if you are in a large combat and you have a not so great move you're kinda stuck. It really forces you to position your melee units better to trap them.

I would be fine with that, and note, this would add a strategic layer to the game.

You want a gunline? Ok. But you better make sure that you don't get flanked.

You want to assault? Ok, but you better make sure that they don't get away.

Random running never bothered me, you should never count on it (where people go wrong), but can provide an extra couple of inches to maybe make an assault easier, or provide bonus movement to units that can't shoot anyway.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Yeah this change is awesome in my mind. I always thought tarpitting was a little too static and cause for a lot of exploitation. The example they gave, of setting up guardsman lines and falling back each line for the ones behind to open up sounds so awesome.
Just to point out though, this also means that the assaulting army can then charge again, charging in 8th now giving a huge advantage, so I don't consider this a nerf to assault armies personally

They can charge again if the survive a turn of standing around in the open with their dicks in their hands.

This is a huge nerf to assault armies because the only thing that made assault the least bit viable was getting stuck in combat through your opponents turn. Close combat was a huge risk for a bit of reward, and now it's suicide.

And while some people don't like tar pits, those people play tau triple storm surge or deathstars. For many armies tar pitting is the only way to deal with OP shooting units and deathstars. It's only disliked by people who play lists that can only be dealt with by tar pits.
.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimgold wrote:
I think we are seeing the compromise that allows for turn 1 charges and assaulting out of vehicles. The problem with CC was it was too sticky, Now that people can just leave (albeit at the risk of getting charged again) ranged armies like the Tau can better respond to melee threats.

How often did tau struggle against melee armies though? Sure if a melee army got in CC with tau, but that rarely happened as they'd get gunned down on the way easily.

Anyone who thought close combat needed a nerf raise their hand

Danny slag wrote:


And while some people don't like tar pits, those people play tau triple storm surge or deathstars. For many armies tar pitting is the only way to deal with OP shooting units and deathstars. It's only disliked by people who play lists that can only be dealt with by tar pits.

I know it's fun to be salty, but I don't play those lists and I don't like tar pits - I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

Some people seem to be allergic to that idea.

I disagree. Yahtzee is a dice game. 40k is a tabletop war game.

 Kellevil wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

Some people seem to be allergic to that idea.

I disagree. Yahtzee is a dice game. 40k is a tabletop war game.

Why cant it be both?

 Desubot wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

Some people seem to be allergic to that idea.

I disagree. Yahtzee is a dice game. 40k is a tabletop war game.

Why cant it be both?

Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

 amanita wrote:
Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Which is one of the reasons it sucks for Warlord Traits and Psyker Powers. However, if you choose to Run, would this not be resolving the player's decision, and not making the decision?

 amanita wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

Some people seem to be allergic to that idea.

I disagree. Yahtzee is a dice game. 40k is a tabletop war game.

Why cant it be both?

Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Not really seeing how the dice are making you decide whether to run or not. you certainly have to make decisions after the results but thats all games. (did you manage to hit the target and kill it, did you not? what next?)

 Charistoph wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Which is one of the reasons it sucks for Warlord Traits and Psyker Powers. However, if you choose to Run, would this not be resolving the player's decision, and not making the decision?

I just dont understand the benefit of a random run / charge distances. I dont cheer when I get a good roll i say '*whew* that didnt suck'. And when i get a bad roll, of course, I throw a kitten in a wood chipper.

I have never played with anyone who appreciates random movement values. Can you explain why you like it?

 Kellevil wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Which is one of the reasons it sucks for Warlord Traits and Psyker Powers. However, if you choose to Run, would this not be resolving the player's decision, and not making the decision?

I just dont understand the benefit of a random run / charge distances. I dont cheer when I get a good roll i say '*whew* that didnt suck'. And when i get a bad roll, of course, I throw a kitten in a wood chipper.

I have never played with anyone who appreciates random movement values. Can you explain why you like it?

Well if the game was absolutely rigid then you would know exactly how everything would turn out. should you be able to shoot something and not have to roll to hit or kill?

its the same concept. if you dont like dice then you shouldn't like the shooting system ether.

 Charistoph wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Which is one of the reasons it sucks for Warlord Traits and Psyker Powers. However, if you choose to Run, would this not be resolving the player's decision, and not making the decision?

Certainly. In our game we use 2D6 and pick the higher for running. My comment was a general one, not so much a specific one but the original comment, even if in jest, seemed a carte blanche justification for using dice to determine more than necessary.

 amanita wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Which is one of the reasons it sucks for Warlord Traits and Psyker Powers. However, if you choose to Run, would this not be resolving the player's decision, and not making the decision?

Certainly. In our game we use 2D6 and pick the higher for running. My comment was a general one, not so much a specific one but the original comment, even if in jest, seemed a carte blanche justification for using dice to determine more than necessary.

Yeah it started getting way overboard on some things like randomly generated psychic table. like seriously. im absolutely ecstatic that its gone.

 Kellevil wrote:

I have never played with anyone who appreciates random movement values. Can you explain why you like it?

When everyone moved the same distance, it would be possible to stay 1" outside charge and shoot people as you moved back.

However, failing a 4" charge is the pits. I'm disappointed they don't seem to have taken the opportunity to institute some minimum guarantee (always charge at least you M value or something maybe?)

Well if the game was absolutely rigid then you would know exactly how everything would turn out. should you be able to shoot something and not have to roll to hit or kill?

its the same concept. if you dont like dice then you shouldn't like the shooting system ether.

I dont see that as a solid argument. I like the dice roll for shooting. I dont like it for movement. I dont think it accuratey represents the movement of units. We dont have random rolls for vehicles and nobody thinks it breaks the game. But not knowing how fast your own unit can move prevents solid strategic thinking. You end up just moving as far as you can so you get have a higher likelyhood of getting to where you want to go by the end of turn 5. If you were sure of your movement distance you could do it with a solid plan. Just think how it would be for chess if the movement distance was random. There would be no strategy.

 Kellevil wrote:

Well if the game was absolutely rigid then you would know exactly how everything would turn out. should you be able to shoot something and not have to roll to hit or kill?

its the same concept. if you dont like dice then you shouldn't like the shooting system ether.

I dont see that as a solid argument. I like the dice roll for shooting. I dont like it for movement. I dont think it accuratey represents the movement of units. We dont have random rolls for vehicles and nobody thinks it breaks the game. But not knowing how fast your own unit can move prevents solid strategic thinking. You end up just moving as far as you can so you get have a higher likelyhood of getting to where you want to go by the end of turn 5. If you were sure of your movement distance you could do it with a solid plan. Just think how it would be for chess if the movement distance was random. There would be no strategy.

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

 Kellevil wrote:

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

Which is more or less how the D6 system works. 10 tries will more likely than not move you pretty close to 3.5" per try.

If the random factor is really this big of an issue for you, why are you playing a dice game at all?