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ERJAK wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

Which is more or less how the D6 system works. 10 tries will more likely than not move you pretty close to 3.5" per try.

If the random factor is really this big of an issue for you, why are you playing a dice game at all?

Back to the dice game argument huh? None of you have explained why you like it. That was my question. Why is that mechanic fun?

I have been playing Shadow War armageddon and it has a fixed move, run and charge value. I really like it. i think it adds more strategic depth. It doesnt break the game. It doesnt even hurt it.

Kellevil wrote:I just dont understand the benefit of a random run / charge distances. I dont cheer when I get a good roll i say '*whew* that didnt suck'. And when i get a bad roll, of course, I throw a kitten in a wood chipper.

I have never played with anyone who appreciates random movement values. Can you explain why you like it?

It's not that I like it, I just understand it and its usefulness as a balancing mechanic. I actually like reliability and consistency.

At least its not like Battletech where if you move through difficult terrain, you could randomly end up on your face (a really Bad Thing if that area is also mined).

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:When everyone moved the same distance, it would be possible to stay 1" outside charge and shoot people as you moved back.

And here is a good reason for random movement. Its a little too reliable in WHM, imo.

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:However, failing a 4" charge is the pits. I'm disappointed they don't seem to have taken the opportunity to institute some minimum guarantee (always charge at least you M value or something maybe?)

And here is the bad reason. Even if you have a 7" Charge range at is is M+D3, you could still easily end up missing out if your Movement is 4".

Kellevil wrote:I dont see that as a solid argument. I like the dice roll for shooting. I dont like it for movement. I dont think it accuratey represents the movement of units. We dont have random rolls for vehicles and nobody thinks it breaks the game. But not knowing how fast your own unit can move prevents solid strategic thinking. You end up just moving as far as you can so you get have a higher likelyhood of getting to where you want to go by the end of turn 5. If you were sure of your movement distance you could do it with a solid plan. Just think how it would be for chess if the movement distance was random. There would be no strategy.

I think the reasons given for random movement are appropriate. Running is giving that extra burst more that you just may not have, because you've dodged incoming fire, hit a gopher hole, or pulled a Monty Python and started good but turned back for good reason and got stuck in between. Stuff happens and you can't always control it.

 Kellevil wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

Which is more or less how the D6 system works. 10 tries will more likely than not move you pretty close to 3.5" per try.

If the random factor is really this big of an issue for you, why are you playing a dice game at all?

Back to the dice game argument huh? None of you have explained why you like it. That was my question. Why is that mechanic fun?

I have been playing Shadow War armageddon and it has a fixed move, run and charge value. I really like it. i think it adds more strategic depth. It doesnt break the game. It doesnt even hurt it.

it would be easier for me to say why i dont like static values. it becomes too predictable, too easy to skirt people. i dont want 40k to just be chess.

 Desubot wrote:

it would be easier for me to say why i dont like static values. it becomes too predictable, too easy to skirt people. i dont want 40k to just be chess.

Indeed. If I want to play it completely predictable I'd play chess, checkers, or tic-tac-toe. The unpredictable nature of dice rolls does help keep some mystery in the game that can't be controlled by organic computers.

Now, if you are good with dice, you could encourage rolls to go your way, but then, why are you playing a tabletop game that costs money and not playing craps at your nearest locations of choice?

As a side note, it is also one reason I hate card games. Aside from some superstitions about dice only coming with a certain number of good rolls, the 1's and 6's are always available. In a game like Magic or Malifaux, early success can screw your late game.

 Kellevil wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

Which is more or less how the D6 system works. 10 tries will more likely than not move you pretty close to 3.5" per try.

If the random factor is really this big of an issue for you, why are you playing a dice game at all?

Back to the dice game argument huh? None of you have explained why you like it. That was my question. Why is that mechanic fun?

I have been playing Shadow War armageddon and it has a fixed move, run and charge value. I really like it. i think it adds more strategic depth. It doesnt break the game. It doesnt even hurt it.

My group has enjoyed it, though I have to admit we are a beer and pretzel group. It adds a dynamic that give both excitement and builds tension to cookie cutter games.

One game my Vanguard Vets led by Shrike fail a 3" charge agaist a bunch of boyz with a power klaw nob. It was not going to be fun for the 20+ boyz, but when it failed we both had to laugh and moved on. The next turn the ork player pulled off an 10" and 11" charge. It changed what was gojng to be a one sided fight into a very interesting game that came down to only a half dozen models.
Now from a competition point of view I can see where random charge is bad, but from us Dr. Pepper & Chips players it is a different story aot of the time.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

Which is more or less how the D6 system works. 10 tries will more likely than not move you pretty close to 3.5" per try.

If the random factor is really this big of an issue for you, why are you playing a dice game at all?

Back to the dice game argument huh? None of you have explained why you like it. That was my question. Why is that mechanic fun?

I have been playing Shadow War armageddon and it has a fixed move, run and charge value. I really like it. i think it adds more strategic depth. It doesnt break the game. It doesnt even hurt it.

My group has enjoyed it, though I have to admit we are a beer and pretzel group. It adds a dynamic that give both excitement and builds tension to cookie cutter games.

One game my Vanguard Vets led by Shrike fail a 3" charge agaist a bunch of boyz with a power klaw nob. It was not going to be fun for the 20+ boyz, but when it failed we both had to laugh and moved on. The next turn the ork player pulled off an 10" and 11" charge. It changed what was gojng to be a one sided fight into a very interesting game that came down to only a half dozen models.
Now from a competition point of view I can see where random charge is bad, but from us Dr. Pepper & Chips players it is a different story aot of the time.

Iv had a game where my SM were being charged by my friends necron wraiths and 3 times he was off by 1"

we both had a laugh. and i still hold all of his failures over his head.

Anyone here plays Warmachine Hordes as well?

They have set charging distance. In their recent edition update they added a rule stating you can measure at any time.

This INSTANTLY devolved the game from balanced lists to Shooting heavy lists due to the fact that now shooting lists knew EXACTLY how far they needed to be to not be charged.

Having exact charge distances would be... a NERF TO MELEE...

 Talamare wrote:
Anyone here plays Warmachine Hordes as well?

They have set charging distance. In their recent edition update they added a rule stating you can measure at any time.

This INSTANTLY devolved the game from balanced lists to Shooting heavy lists due to the fact that now shooting lists knew EXACTLY how far they needed to be to not be charged.

Having exact charge distances would be... a NERF TO MELEE...

Jesus i forgot about that.

Fair enough. Thats what I wanted to know. What people liked about it.

It doesnt seem to hurt SW:A but maybe that is because of the scale.

I hope you can only hit flyers if you get a double 6s.

So now we have units able to wimp out of melee so their buddies can shoot the stronger melee force.

Please bring back consolidation from successful assaults!
You want to wimp out and fall back? That's cool, if I survive your buddy's shooting, catch the wussy unit and finish the job I roll 2d6 against movement to continue onto your next unit, your cowardice has given me a possible double melee phase.

And now units can overwatch multiple times. So more nerfs to melee.
Love everything I've read thus far about 8th except the slaps to close combat.

Actually, I do have one hope.
In the 7th ed rules one of the bold points is that a unit that fired in the shooting phase may only charge the unit it targeted during the shooting phase.

Since it hasn't been mentioned in the teasers for shooting or charging I'm hoping this means opening fire on a unit doesn't mean having to charge that unit.

Hash tag drive by.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Actually, I do have one hope.
In the 7th ed rules one of the bold points is that a unit that fired in the shooting phase may only charge the unit it targeted during the shooting phase.

Since it hasn't been mentioned in the teasers for shooting or charging I'm hoping this means opening fire on a unit doesn't mean having to charge that unit.

Hash tag drive by.

Wouldn't it be more of a walk by?

 Traditio wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Actually, I do have one hope.
In the 7th ed rules one of the bold points is that a unit that fired in the shooting phase may only charge the unit it targeted during the shooting phase.

Since it hasn't been mentioned in the teasers for shooting or charging I'm hoping this means opening fire on a unit doesn't mean having to charge that unit.

Hash tag drive by.

Wouldn't it be more of a walk by?

Or ride by, or jump by, or fly by.
You are right of course but quit busting my balls.

Danny slag wrote:And now units can overwatch multiple times. So more nerfs to melee.
Love everything I've read thus far about 8th except the slaps to close combat.

Yes, and no on that multiple Overwatches. In most cases, units won't be able to Overwatch twice or more because they will be the equivalent of Engaged now. So, that restriction hasn't gone away.

But gone are the days of a unit needing to hold back on Overwatch just in case their Charger didn't make it.

I think I like these changes that streamline the movement some and think they could make the game more interesting. I think that this has the potential to be an interestingly dynamic system if they include movement bonuses or penalties in wargear choices. For example, taking the large tau rifles might confer a -1 movement which wouldn't be too big of a disadvantage, but would make them easier to catch and would represent the difficulties of carrying such a large weapon. Conversely, certain choices could confer bonuses such as combat drugs of some kind or choosing to use a lighter armour. I do worry though that unless they change the tau's overwatch gimmick, combined with the new retreating rules and unlimited overwatches for each unit that assaulting a tau gunline may become impossible.

 Traditio wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Actually, I do have one hope.
In the 7th ed rules one of the bold points is that a unit that fired in the shooting phase may only charge the unit it targeted during the shooting phase.

Since it hasn't been mentioned in the teasers for shooting or charging I'm hoping this means opening fire on a unit doesn't mean having to charge that unit.

Hash tag drive by.

Wouldn't it be more of a walk by?

In my severely sleep deprived state, I am now picturing a flinstones-esque foot powered car full of guardsmen wandering the battlefield, performing mob style drive by shootings.