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Franarok wrote:
Will be bery strange that a chaos lord wil lbe on cultist instead with other better chaos marines units.

and on a plain comparison, the guards owned cultist because no reason. I mean, they are better on near everything, more or equal on atributes....and cheaper xD. Why? because reasons xD

guard can get way better weapons, their little cheap infantry squad can have 2 members form a heavy weapons team(5-20 for gun but imo way worth it), 1 can also take a special weapon (sniper, flamer, or plasma. probably would elect sniper , and they can be given orders and a vox caster sarg can take melee weapons

cultists can upgrade the champion to shotgun (free) or brutal combat weapon, 1 can take stubber (4 points) or flamer(9 points), all can take brutal assault weapons and pistol (free)

10 infantry base 40 points or 3 power.
10 infantry base 50 points or 3 power

seems fairly equitable. on paper i think the guardsman are actually better, and kitted they should both be around the same cost, but that is on paper have yet to see either on a table

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Franarok wrote:
Will be bery strange that a chaos lord wil lbe on cultist instead with other better chaos marines units.

and on a plain comparison, the guards owned cultist because no reason. I mean, they are better on near everything, more or equal on atributes....and cheaper xD. Why? because reasons xD

guard can get way better weapons, their little cheap infantry squad can have 2 members form a heavy weapons team(5-20 for gun but imo way worth it), 1 can also take a special weapon (sniper, flamer, or plasma. probably would elect sniper , and they can be given orders and a vox caster sarg can take melee weapons

cultists can upgrade the champion to shotgun (free) or brutal combat weapon, 1 can take stubber (4 points) or flamer(9 points), all can take brutal assault weapons and pistol (free)

10 infantry base 40 points or 3 power.
10 infantry base 50 points or 3 power

seems fairly equitable. on paper i think the guardsman are actually better, and kitted they should both be around the same cost, but that is on paper have yet to see either on a table

one thing to consider is that guard cannot get many re-roll auras, cultists can benifit from the auras of all CSM HQs.
Cultists will synergize MUCH better together then an equivilanty space marine army using guard in place of cultists

 Galas wrote:
[

I love it. It was the excuse to buy some Bullgryns! for my Genestealer Cult.

My GSC are getting a Baneblade

 Galas wrote:

Timeshadow wrote:
Actually Tyranids have Genestealer cult and GSC can have both Guard and Tyranids included.

No. Genestealers Cultists can ally themselves with Tyranids OR they can use their special rule to have allied Imperial Guard Detachments and still count as a Genestealer Cult army.

But you can't have Tyranids, Genestealer Cults and Astra Militarum in the same army.

But you can have a genestealer corrupted Yarrick or Creed

I love it. It was the excuse to buy some Bullgryns! for my Genestealer Cult.

You can have Tyranids, GSC, and Astra Militarum in the same army, I think.

The requirement for a Battle-forged army is that all units/detachments in the army share a keyword in common; in this case, it's Tyranids, so Tyranids+GSC are fine.

That said, GSC also have a special ability that for every GSC only detachment (which is still possible in a Tyranid army), they can take an IG detachment, and the units in this detachment are basically ignored when considering the purposes of your armies "Faction". Right?

So; at points limits where you can have three detachments, your list looks like the following;

1 Tyranid+GSC mix
1 GSC only
1 Astra Militarum (ignored for purposes of army/faction)

That rule only apply in a Genestealer Cult army. So, if you have a Tyranid detachment, that army is "Tyranid", not Genestealer Cult, so you can't have the allied Imperial Guard Detachment.


(But I can be wrong)

See; I think in 8th edition you're no longer playing an "army", you're playing a "faction", which can include multiple armies. "Imperium"/"Chaos"/"Aeldari" are the best examples of this.

From the GSC first page: "... Some abilities are common in multiple Genestealer Cult units, in which case they described below, and referenced on the datasheets themselves. ..."

And then it goes on to list the common abilities, which Brood Brothers (the rule in specific we're talking about) is one of them. - Unless you're trying to say that once you mix armies, these "first page" common abilities no longer are active, which seems, wrong.

I see where you're coming from, which would make sense, but; maybe an FAQ will clear this up. Thoughts? If you can point out a specific passage that makes this clear, that would be helpful as well.

Hmmm... reading this I think you are right. They only talk about a "battleforged army", but a Genestealer+Tyranid army can be a Battleforged army... so I suppose that you can actually have a Tyranid Detachment+GSC detachment+Imperial Guard detachment in the same army.

I suppose thats the intention. It doesn't appear unfluffy to me really or even unbalanced. I think I have just assumed that this only apllied in a pure GSC army.

The only thing about this I miss is I can't use my converted tau assassin any more

@Galas, yeah, it's hard to say what the intended ruling is one way or the other.

Thematically, it makes sense; the hive mind has converted some outlying AM members to it's cause (ala genestealer cults); but balance wise - giving Tyranids access to Scions/Heavy Weapons Teams/Taurox Prime/random vehicles/everything else, that's not something they probably need access to, haha. Astra Militarum appear to be THE faction to share a keyword with, since they have so many nuts unit choices that are solid this edition.

Those alone can shore up a ton of weaknesses; take an Elite Detachment or Heavy Support detachment, oh boy.

Yeah. Mixing the meele capabilities of Tyranids that are gigantic in 8th with some of the very very strong shooting Imperial Guard has don't sound very balanced to me.

so if I take Squats proxied as an ork list.....will I be able to use my imperial vehicles as looted vehicles?

How are Looted Vehicles done in this version?


thanks

@admironheart: Looted vehicles no longer exist as a unit this edition - instead, you can use them to represent existing Ork units such as Trukks, Battlewagons, etc.

 admironheart wrote:

How are Looted Vehicles done in this version?

they're not :(

 Galas wrote:
You can mix units in a Detachment if every unit in the Detachment have at least 1 common Keyword. So you can have a space marine HQ with Astra Militarum Heavy Support, Adeptas Sororitas troops, because they all share the Imperium keyword.

In matched play you need minimun 1 common keyword in all of your army. So you can't ally Imperium and Tyranids in Matched play.

If you have more specific faction keywords you can have better sinergies because your army count as that:

For example, if every unit in your army has the Blood Angels faction keyword, your army is a Blood Angel army and can have all the special rules and stratagems (They don't exist yet) of the Blood Angels.

But if you mix Blood Angels and Space Wolves the next common keyword you have is "Adeptus Astartes"; so you army is a "Adeptus Astartes" army and you can't use Space Wolves or Blood Angels stratagems and other special things that can come in the future.

That's kinda cool... I think I really like this idea. Let's see if it plays out!!!

So like... Can I make a battalion with something like (this is real quick and dirty)

CSM - Emperor's Children
Prince of slaanesh
Apostle of ""
Herald of ""

3x noise Marines squads
2 rhinos

Chosen of slaanesh
Helbruteof slaanesh

Soul grinder of slaanesh

?

Debilitate wrote:
So like... Can I make a battalion with something like (this is real quick and dirty)

CSM - Emperor's Children
Prince of slaanesh
Apostle of ""
Herald of ""

3x noise Marines squads
2 rhinos

Chosen of slaanesh
Helbruteof slaanesh

Soul grinder of slaanesh

?

IF they are all on the Emperors Children list then yes

Cant have the Soul Grinder, as the Emperor Children are restricted to units that are in the CSM section of the book.. page 16-42 Soul Grinder is on page 107

GodDamUser wrote:

Debilitate wrote:
So like... Can I make a battalion with something like (this is real quick and dirty)

CSM - Emperor's Children
Prince of slaanesh
Apostle of ""
Herald of ""

3x noise Marines squads
2 rhinos

Chosen of slaanesh
Helbruteof slaanesh

Soul grinder of slaanesh

?

IF they are all on the Emperors Children list then yes

Cant have the Soul Grinder, as the Emperor Children are restricted to units that are in the CSM section of the book.. page 16-42 Soul Grinder is on page 107

Soul grinder is a chaos deamons unit. so yeah he could totally run that list. and the list would be united with the chaos and slaanish keywords.

BrianDavion wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

Debilitate wrote:
So like... Can I make a battalion with something like (this is real quick and dirty)

CSM - Emperor's Children
Prince of slaanesh
Apostle of ""
Herald of ""

3x noise Marines squads
2 rhinos

Chosen of slaanesh
Helbruteof slaanesh

Soul grinder of slaanesh

?

IF they are all on the Emperors Children list then yes

Cant have the Soul Grinder, as the Emperor Children are restricted to units that are in the CSM section of the book.. page 16-42 Soul Grinder is on page 107

Soul grinder is a chaos deamons unit. so yeah he could totally run that list. and the list would be united with the chaos and slaanish keywords.

You are right..

It just doesn't get any buffs that are associated with Emperors Children

Debilitate wrote:
So like... Can I make a battalion with something like (this is real quick and dirty)

CSM - Emperor's Children
Prince of slaanesh
Apostle of ""
Herald of ""

3x noise Marines squads
2 rhinos

Chosen of slaanesh
Helbruteof slaanesh

Soul grinder of slaanesh

?

This would not be a Emperor's Children Battalion as the Soul Grinder and Herald units cannot be Emperor's Children Legion. You could make the following as a Slannesh Chaos Battalion:
Heretic Astartes Daemon Prince of Slaanesh - Emperor's Children
Dark Apostle - Slannesh, Emperor's Chidren
Herald of Slannesh

3x noise Marines squads
2 Chaos Rhinos - Slannesh, Emperor's Chidren

Chosen - Slannesh, Emperor's Chidren
Helbrute - Slannesh, Emperor's Chidren

Soul grinder - slaanesh

 Galas wrote:
What is people gonna do with 4 Wraitknights? Learn that chasing the metagame comes at the expense of adjusting your army every time the mega changes.

The kind of people that bought a Riptide wing just to ally and form a TauDar are the ones that have 0 problems to sell them to buy the new hotness.

0 Emphaty for my part. Other cases or allies not being legal in 8th... you can always play narrative.

Well, I've made a 2000 point list using the LoW Detachment and the detachment for ICs: 3 Wraithknights, 1 Avatar, 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch. And this gives me 7 Command Points. I am not sure how effective it will be as objectives are held by the number of models vs number of wounds. It may come down to just trying to clear all models off of an objective.

Can't speak about Taudar players.

I didn't realize the an EC detachment was restricted to the listed units. I think that list would be invalid because Noise Marines can't be troops unless they are in an EC detachment, yea?

Definitely gonna be a learning experience.

having a look at the rules again...

Emperor's Children and World Eaters do not have restrictions.

Death Guard and Thousand Sons do

 Galas wrote:
What is people gonna do with 4 Wraitknights? Learn that chasing the metagame comes at the expense of adjusting your army every time the mega changes.

The kind of people that bought a Riptide wing just to ally and form a TauDar are the ones that have 0 problems to sell them to buy the new hotness.

0 Emphaty for my part. Other cases or allies not being legal in 8th... you can always play narrative.

You can still run Wraithknights, there's an all Lord of War formation you can run, so no need for allies.


My thing is, there's a lot of people who did 'fluffy' conversions, that look to no longer work with 8th edition. I know there's a lot of looted knights out there in many Ork armies, not sure how those will fit now. I've personally got a few myself. One of my favorites is a Callidus assassin that I use in my Thousand Sons army, it's a converted sniper Scout that 'counts as' a Thousand Sons Hidden one. I had also started on an Eversor Assassin for my Thousand Sons army that would count as a surviving Khenetai Occult member. I had been looking at doing a Culexis assassin for my Khorne army as well. Like many of the changes in 8th, they are both a blessing and a curse.

Ravingbantha wrote:

 Galas wrote:
What is people gonna do with 4 Wraitknights? Learn that chasing the metagame comes at the expense of adjusting your army every time the mega changes.

The kind of people that bought a Riptide wing just to ally and form a TauDar are the ones that have 0 problems to sell them to buy the new hotness.

0 Emphaty for my part. Other cases or allies not being legal in 8th... you can always play narrative.

You can still run Wraithknights, there's an all Lord of War formation you can run, so no need for allies...

Yeah, but you could be running sixteen Wraithlords instead. And you'd probably be better off.

GodDamUser wrote:
having a look at the rules again...

Emperor's Children and World Eaters do not have restrictions.

Death Guard and Thousand Sons do

I'm gonna reread all through this stuff again tonight because if I can finally do Slaanesh demonkin.... this is a big, big deal to me.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:

 Galas wrote:
What is people gonna do with 4 Wraitknights? Learn that chasing the metagame comes at the expense of adjusting your army every time the mega changes.

The kind of people that bought a Riptide wing just to ally and form a TauDar are the ones that have 0 problems to sell them to buy the new hotness.

0 Emphaty for my part. Other cases or allies not being legal in 8th... you can always play narrative.

You can still run Wraithknights, there's an all Lord of War formation you can run, so no need for allies...

Yeah, but you could be running sixteen Wraithlords instead. And you'd probably be better off.

didn't say it was a good or viable option, I was simply pointing out that it can be done.

 Galas wrote:


In matched play you need minimun 1 common keyword in all of your army.

Where does is state that in the rulebook?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is how I see it.

Faction restriction exist for every detachment except for the auxiliary support detachments.

Your "army" is made up of as many "detachments" as you want.

Any time I see battle-forged faction mentioned it is always related to a "detachment".

So, unless I have missed something you should be able to build an army using, let's say a patrol detachment and an auxiliary support detachment.

The patrol detachment specifically says that all units in it must be from the same faction/share a faction keyword.

The auxiliary support detachment does not have any such restriction.

So, it should be possible the take a patrol detachment of Ultramarines and an Auxiliary support detachment of a Tau Riptide in the same battle-forged army.

Unless the rulebook specifically states the battle-forged armies must all shared the same keyword faction.

If you think that you found that in the rulebook, please provide a page number.

Still pissed that thousand sons get only 1/3 of the CSM units and get jack gak for it

@Mitochondria Page 214, 22 of 50 of the photograped rulebook in PDF. Behind "Choose Armies"

 Galas wrote:


@Mitochondria Page 214, 22 of 50 of the photograped rulebook in PDF. Behind "Choose Armies"

Thanks!