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On the subject of weapon sprues - don't tell us, tell GW.

What might've sounded churlish 4-5 years ago isn't so anymore.

They do sell small conversion packs - Chapter iconography etc, that sort of stuff. If you want weapons, ask for them. Let them see that we'd be happy to buy them.

 Corrode wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
A store which sells bits, as opposed to full kits? That would be huge and very welcome. It's ridiculous that a daemon hammer - a singular daemon hammer - costs 7$ on ebay.

Well it worked before with metal bits as spincasting metal you could just remelt and use all the junk you didnt need.

not so much with plastic i dont think.

Metal was certainly easier in that respect. Resin and plastics you can't just rend it down again. I recall several store managers telling me they had huge stocks of old sprue components from duff packages and the like. It's why if you get misscastings you tend to get GW sending you the whole model it replaced not just the part - because they have to cast up the whole thing and can't do anything but throw away the rest of the sprue anyway.

It's a shame, but honestly I don't expect GW to do bits any more like they used to - heck they used to print out a big annual book with all the parts to be ordered. We might get conversion kits and such; I mean beyond just marine shoulder pads.

On a tangent, but I once had some miscasts from a Dark Vengeance box. GW ended up sending me those exact bitz attached to the sprue....and nothing else on it.

Some employee went and clipped every single bit off of the sprue other than the ones I was missing and then sent me the frames.

I get the feeling he was either having a really bad day, or a really slow day. It was both hilarious and kinda insulting.

Back when whfb was still a thing i got an island of blood with one rat ogre head missing

they ended up sending over just the head. no real biggy and it didnt bother me. but i think it depends on the extent of the feth up. its entirly possible this is specific to starter sets and sell throughs or possibly one of the studio doods conversion or spare parts bin.

Very possibly, someone had the brains to realise that someone else had the same problem with a different part of the sprue, and they just sub-divided the stuff up. That seems remarkably on the ball for the average customer service department, though.

GW is normally pretty darn good on customer service.
I suspect that some kits are indeed only sent the replacement part; starter kits might be more so because they oft contain a lot of miniatures and I'm sure GW is sensitive to those trying to take advantage of their service in trying to get free stuff. It might also vary on country policy. It strikes me that both of those examples were in overseas nations - it could be that overseas the GW local outlet holds items in stock and parts them up because they can't just run another off the production line - whilst GW in the UK can likely just cast up a new copy there and then or pluck one off the production line. So they've both less pressure to hold their own local reserve of parts and possibly (through the trials of production) less storage space on-hand to hold such a backlog of parts.




Ps I don't think GW will ever be "what it once was" for several key reasons - which are not actually their own fault at all.
1) UK side (and other nations I'm sure) I doubt we'll see a return of 3 or 4 man staff teams at all hours. Unless the overheads on highstreet shops take a massive nose-dive I think this is gone. They might experiment with free volunteer staff via some kind of rewards program, but my impression is that setting up those kind of affairs for a commercial company is a nightmare to get right without it being open to either being abused or illegal.

2) The miniatures market is far more flooded with other ranges than it ever was. GW is not the only name in the game any more. It's still the biggest (or at least one-of) and still, I think, acts as one of the bigger gateways into the hobby for those new to it (ergo people are more likely to hear of Warhammer than they are Mantic or Infinity or even Warmachine - though I'd rank WM a close second - although PP is suffering their own kinda mess since 3rd edition).
I will note that GW is still the only company that often has spare parts in their kits on a regular basis. Alternate heads, weapons, details and even their combined two-in-one kits are something that only GW seems to output. Pretty much every single range I can think of (with the exception of Kingdom Death which goes into extremes) releases single pose models - troops might have a few alternate poses - but every pose is fixed unless you convert.

I think those aspects, esp the second, will hold GW back from being the all dominant powerhouse of miniatures it once was. But I think that it will remain as a very strong party and with the changes they've been making a return of specialist games; improved release of new codex etc... I think that we are honestly in a fantastic position.

Just on the weapon sprue discussion, remember GW did this https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/tzaangors not all that long ago, so its definitely something within their capability.

Yeah, a mini sprue of CCW's would be pretty easy for them to do, particularly if they can fit them into the squad boxes as well. That then either simplifies the squad sprues (don't need to add CCWs) or allows them to put other stuff on there.

You probably won't get with 5x right hand chainswords, but one of each hand for each weapon would be easy enough to do.

The bar for creating a sprue like that is much lower; they'd certainly make their money back on most of them.

Plus, no reason for them to be in plastic rather than FW resin.

Or they could just let the bitz sellers continue selling bitz, like you know, they used to not that long ago? GW has gone from really bad to really bad but not as bad as before a little bit, so idk. Kevin may be responsible for that?

Sadly I suspect part of the reason for the crack down on bitz sellers is the vocal complaints about price of said parts and thus it reflects badly on GW (rather than the bitz seller)

I know this is a bit of a circular argument but they aren't going to reduce their own prices (although they will now discount on bundles as this doesn't bother investors in the same way)

along with a desire to reduce 'back door' wastage from their own opperations (store/warhouse/production) as some bitz sellers were fairly flexible about where their starting stock came from,

Can also be health and safety.

When GW sell a boxed set, it has certain wording on it (not suitable for this, that and the other etc).

A bitz seller is removing that packaging, and with it the warning.

Basically, there's sound reasons beyond paranoia why few if any companies are happy with 'split down' re-sellers.

I have to agree they are doing better.. but I am no longer collecting Games Workshop that much anymore.
Because of the train wreck they had a few years ago including destroying the Warhammer game that only needed
to be fixed and was public knowledge of easy ways to make it better (lower count units - some type of introductory game)

When most companies were moving to digital for publishing print items, Games Workshop doubled down...producting
Two magazines (A total of five a month) With half information that could already find online. (paint guides, tactics)

So with just these two items, If GW was running about a "6" before and after the the debacle above knocked them down to a "2".
Then they realized with Kevin's help to fix things that where clearly hurting the company as a whole. So just fixing
problems they caused moved them back up to "4" You can say they are doing better..But not as healthy as they once were
caused by their own hand.

I feel GW as an Ex Wife.. They did something bad to make me leave.. Now I look every once in a while just to see how they are
doing. Glad to see they are doing well and gotten better, but don't have any plans to get back with them.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Can also be health and safety.

When GW sell a boxed set, it has certain wording on it (not suitable for this, that and the other etc).

A bitz seller is removing that packaging, and with it the warning.

Basically, there's sound reasons beyond paranoia why few if any companies are happy with 'split down' re-sellers.

that's another good point i'd not though of

(not that the reduction in bitz sales suits me since I do convert, but I do understand GWs reasonable reasoning for doing so)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Sadly I suspect part of the reason for the crack down on bitz sellers is the vocal complaints about price of said parts and thus it reflects badly on GW (rather than the bitz seller)

Certainly in the Kirby days I always got the impression the crack-down on bits sellers was to encourage people to buy whole boxes. I don't think the price of bits was seen as GW's fault beyond the price of the base box being ridiculous.

I can see the argument about H&S and packaging - If you're not selling something in packaging it's hard to be sure if it's legit, and GW don't want anyone touching non-GW components.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:
GW is not going to make low volume plastic upgrade sprues for random things like Chain Swords. GW would never make their money back. Plastic is just too expensive due to the molds. If they did make it, then it would cost a lot of money per frame, which on one would pay.

Resin and Metal are tailor made for bitz, especially metal. But GW does not want to use metal anymore and resin would probably still be too cost-prohibitive.

It would be less of a problem if their various sets started using shared sprues again.

It would be even less of an issue if GW would just stock minor forgeworld items.

they already have sprues for weapons and cool things.

Herzlos wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Sadly I suspect part of the reason for the crack down on bitz sellers is the vocal complaints about price of said parts and thus it reflects badly on GW (rather than the bitz seller)

Certainly in the Kirby days I always got the impression the crack-down on bits sellers was to encourage people to buy whole boxes. I don't think the price of bits was seen as GW's fault beyond the price of the base box being ridiculous.

I can see the argument about H&S and packaging - If you're not selling something in packaging it's hard to be sure if it's legit, and GW don't want anyone touching non-GW components.

It's also the risk of choking etc.

If GW sell you a box of say, Killa Kans (complete with update warning!), and your kid takes it eye out on the drill, they can point to the H&S warning on the box as their defence.

If you bought the Killa Kan off a bitz website, and didn't receive the packaging, that's a different barrel of litigious fish altogether.

This is why so many companies don't want 'out of packet' sales.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the subject of weapon sprues - don't tell us, tell GW.

What might've sounded churlish 4-5 years ago isn't so anymore.

They do sell small conversion packs - Chapter iconography etc, that sort of stuff. If you want weapons, ask for them. Let them see that we'd be happy to buy them.

Exactly. You have to vote with your wallet, but you gotta tell them will vote with your wallet. Complaining to us doesn't do any good, which is why my complaints about Calvary (SO basically the Chaos Steeds and Rough Riders) not benefiting from any of the "Chapter Tactics" doesn't matter. I'm going to the wrong people.

If you bought the Killa Kan off a bitz website, and didn't receive the packaging, that's a different barrel of litigious fish altogether.

You're not wrong. Making a case against GW for liability in that scenario would be straining the bounds of credibility. Hence it's a rather tenuous argument.

Better than ten years ago? - Hells, yes!

Better than when the Bitz Wagon roamed the Earth? - Hells, no!

But - I am really glad to see positive change, I was becoming increasingly convinced that GW would not last another decade.

Now? Unless Kirby is put back in charge, pretty sure the company will survive.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


Better than when the Bitz Wagon roamed the Earth? - Hells, no!

Bits, bits, a kingdom for some bits.

For him to really fix GW, I see a need for Unsquatting Squats & Plastcizing Sisters.

I'm sorry, but.... what?! Buying things second-hand introduces the possibility of not receiving the official packaging with government mandated warnings on it, so *that's* the logical reason gw stopped people from selling bitz? Does that hold, idk, *anywhere else* as a legal issue? I bought a lego kit from craigslist and my 1-yr old choked on it so now i'm going to sue lego because the person i bought it off didn't include the packaging? Really? Isn't it more likely that gw was just looking to increase their direct profits and cut down on 3rd party retailers with whom they have a long history of blaming for 'stealing' their money? Occams razor and all that?

The reason GW stopped selling bits is because they’re all plastic now, so they can’t just cast up specific bits to sell you. How this is anything but completely obvious to anybody astounds me. They’re not going to clip sprues just to sell individual bits to you. That’s, frankly, a completely unreasonable thing to ask for. “Hey, let’s clip these guns off the sprues we’ve made, and just throw the rest away, so that it costs us way more to produce, package and sell, and we’ll only make a tiny return! We love literally tossing money and product away”

 Luciferian wrote:
I'll throw in another vote for dedicated upgrade sprues. If they sold all of the various weapons and wargear options on their own sprues they could pretty much put third-party bits manufacturers out of business. Seems like an obvious upsell to me - buy a box of troops for $50 and then a weapons sprue for $10-15 so you can equip them the way you want without having to resort to bits sellers or third-party lines.

Dunno how this became a thread about sprues and modifications but, sure, why not.
Yup.
Another reason that second ed was and remains the bestest.

As for the main idea behind this thread, I would have been more inclined to agree just as SWA was coming out.
Now... not so much.
Bait and switch, power creep, holier than holy rules systems, just more blech and meh.
Sure, some nice kits, that aren't very customizable (hence, the sprue spin-off) and that are pretty expensive (some, especially).
SOME reaching out to customers, but then again ITC is not my brand of game-play so I might not be their target "consumer"...

GW under Roundtree HAS seemed to correct course, but not enough in my opinion and perhaps this ship has sailed.
GW is driven by marketing and accounting first, design second (for valuable IP solely, seems like) and enthusiasts last.
This much has not changed - guess it won't.
So, in the end, my position is the same as in regards any profit-over-people corporation -
'em before they you.
Until Roundtree repays loyalty with loyalty, recasters and torrents are fair game imho.

 Bi'ios wrote:
The reason GW stopped selling bits is because they’re all plastic now, so they can’t just cast up specific bits to sell you. How this is anything but completely obvious to anybody astounds me. They’re not going to clip sprues just to sell individual bits to you. That’s, frankly, a completely unreasonable thing to ask for. “Hey, let’s clip these guns off the sprues we’ve made, and just throw the rest away, so that it costs us way more to produce, package and sell, and we’ll only make a tiny return! We love literally tossing money and product away”

You know that they used to sell whole plastic sprues through their bits service, right?

 Marmatag wrote:
A store which sells bits, as opposed to full kits? That would be huge and very welcome. It's ridiculous that a daemon hammer - a singular daemon hammer - costs 7$ on ebay.

Anything costs anything on ebay, you can likely find the same item for less if you are patient with ebay, or do a wider search on bitz sites.
I dont pay much for bitz, neither should you.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Rowntree, he isnt all that good, but isn't all that bad either.

After the complete clusterfeth that came before him, he appears sagacious.

 Orlanth wrote:

As for Rowntree, he isnt all that good, but isn't all that bad either.

After the complete clusterfeth that came before him, he appears sagacious.

/Thread

It's basic marketing and sales techniques. Why the acclaim for the most simple of sales activities?

Oh, yeah, forgot - marine kool aid

Without having any indepth knowledge of GW (well, since 2004-2005 era when I was buddies with a bunch of managers and regional folks) I think what people have said is very true. Rountree may not be some genius god...but he's not the past generation of GW management, which was terrible. I think anybody chosen to take his role, with a modicum of business sense, could have turned GW around from the crazy direction they were going.

I think someone from another line of work or business environment would have started the job, looked at how GW were working and thought "What in the flying feth...?"

I'd say yes

As a player from 3rd edition that grew up with the game from a wee lad

Is Kevin Rountree a more customer friendly C.E.O. than Tom Kirby....YES.

Was his appointment the best thing to happen at GW .....NO.

Its not a necessarily ''good thing'' , but a necessary progression from the frankly sociopathic behaviour of Tom Kirby.(Under which GW would not have survived.IMO)

Thing is, Rountree *was* the previous management, it's just he wasn't the Boss back then. What is changed is that he appears more likely to listen to wider opinions than the previous boss was, and to distance himself from others whose opinions and actions have proved "difficult" and unpopular for the company in recent years *cough* Alan Merrett *cough* (e.g. no points values in AoS, for instance, or claiming every piece of medieval iconography ever used anywhere by anyone was invented by GW and is copyrighted by them).

He has achieved his main aim, for which the shareholders pay him - which was returning the company to a pattern of financial growth. The fact that he has done so by listening to customer feedback and reacting positively to it rather than pretending it was irrelevant is to be commended, but was really simple, sensible, normal business practice anywhere outside of Tom "Fortress Wall" Kirby's paranoid head!

Looking at how things panned out over the last 3 or 4 years, it is really hard to understand how Kirby managed to sustain growth in the late 90's/early 2000's. Obviously, he struck gold with LotR, but once the mega-revenues from that tailed away in 2005, it is hard to see any decisions he made that did anything other than retrench the company further away from its avowed aim of long-term growth by cutting out anything that wasn't just about selling more space marines!

If he ever set up a business school somewhere explaining his business philosophy I'd sign up tomorrow just for the LULZ!

In terms of is Rountree the best thing since sliced bread, I think he still has some way to go in my opinion. I see the key to success for GW (and any games company) is community involvement, not just having a good product and a good distribution network. Right now there are still too many restrictions on their staff when it comes to getting involved with the *real* community of people who buy and play their games in clubs, online

I wonder if Kirby rose to his position through steady promotions and suddenly found himself in a situation where he'd been promoted into a position where he didn't actually have the best training/experiences to work in. Possibly riding the success of a few good choices that worked well (eg Lord of the Rings) that kept him in his position but also left him with few skills/tools to continue good performance.

I have seen other people who wind up in positions of power who close down outside help. They get worried/scared and concerned that suggestions/ideas not their own (or heavily influenced by) are made only to further the success of the person making the suggestion. So they can quickly end up building a wall of "yes men" around them and shutting down other viewpoints (a fantastic extreme example of this would be Donald Trump*).
So I don't hate Kirby as it could well be that he was just so far out of his depth that he was just really unsuited to the role; yet at the same time didn't want to give it up (lets face it few people - esp in today's job market - are willing to pass on promotion and pay rises- esp if you've had them for a while).


**who also goes to the next level of retaining a sense of power and control by throwing out random in-the-moment changes of policy/ideas; which destabilizes those around him and keeps him "in charge" in his own mind.

I understand that Kirby was a tax inspector before he went to work for GW. Clearly, therefore he had no prior experience or qualifications related to business. He led the management buy-out that bought the business from Ansell in the 90's and found himself a CEO of the PLC when GW got their stock exchange listing in '99.

So a lot of the things that people see as "good" (bitz, 2d ed 40k, etc.) happened in the 90's under his purview and he gets credit for them. He is/was a geek too - I think he wrote an AD&D module or something for TSR UK back in the 80's. So I do believe he has/had a genuine love of fantasy gaming.

Most of the bad stuff happened in the late 00's post the collapse of the LotR bubble and for the subsequent decade as GW retrenched and cut programme after programme in order to save costs in order to keep the shareholders content (of which he was, and still is, the major one!)

Personally, my opinion, for what its worth is that Kirby was fine when everything was going well with increasing revenues and would let pretty much anything go if people could convince him it was a good idea. But when revenues started falling he thrashed around a little bit unsure of himself, didn't have any theoretical grounding to fall back upon, was too egocentric to identify good advice when it contradicted with his own opinion, was surrounded by yes-men thanks to the toxic management culture he led, and so all too often threw the baby out with the bathwater in terms of customer goodwill, which led to a downward sales spiral.

Rountree is showing signs that he is a bit more clued up about what it takes to build customer loyalty in a multi-national, multi-million pound business in the entertainment industry, and also of the real value of that customer loyalty (or at least the cost of losing it!), and so where building customer goodwill is demonstrably cost-effective it can happen again, but he is a rational skeptic, and so won't be taking excessive financial risks, or chucking too much money at measures that don't have some obvious positive revenue stream attached to them (so a new specialist game that has an estimatable level of demand: yes, bitz wagon which cost more than the revenue it generates: no.) Whether he has got rid of the toxic management culture that was Kirby's legacy is something I have yet to find out.

That's just my take on the situation anyhow.

From what I can see the new boss is better but let's not go overboard with the praise. All that's really happened is he's reversed a bunch of boneheaded decisions by the previous man in charge. It's great that GW have embraced social media more and are starting to do proper previews of their own but that's hardly rocket science.

Being better than the terrible guy before you isn't a great achievement. I'm more optimistic about the direction GW is going in now but a lot of issues still remain. The primary one is they still show a lack of ability to actually balance their main game properly.