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I had suggested that as a nerf to Bladestorm last edition. It it sounded interesting. Still not sure Tacs need it. More weapons should be as simple and straight forward as the Boltgun.

(Wouldn't even mind if Shuriken Catapaults lost Bladestorm for simplification, as long as Guardians got a point drop and DAs got something else.)

Bharring wrote:
I had suggested that as a nerf to Bladestorm last edition. It it sounded interesting. Still not sure Tacs need it. More weapons should be as simple and straight forward as the Boltgun.

(Wouldn't even mind if Shuriken Catapaults lost Bladestorm for simplification, as long as Guardians got a point drop and DAs got something else.)

What else would you give Dire Avengers though?

And quite frankly most weapons ARE straightforward. Gauss doesn't have any special rule now and just has straight up better penetration, and Shuriken relies on precise shots getting into the armor to get the guy inside.
I figured a giant explosive wouldn't penetrate armor better but rather make the armor ineffective. A straight up AP bonus is kinda boring too as there's plenty of that in the current game.

Most are, yes. I'd rather not add more non-straightforward rules is what I"m saying.

How about, boltguns generate an additional regular wound against the target on a wound roll of 5 or 6?

Martel732 wrote:
How about, boltguns generate an additional regular wound against the target on a wound roll of 5 or 6?

Maybe give them the ranger rending rule but makes them damage 2 on a roll of 6 to wound instead of mortal wounds?

No, no. It needs to be additional wounds against the UNIT, not just damage. That way, it can sweep up hordes faster.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Fair enough. Make Bolters and Bolt Pistols have rending lite instead, making them -1AP on a wound of 6 or 5+?

I know I'm a broken record on this but I want a different mechanic compared to other weapons.

I've been mindlessly promoting that a 6 to wound forces a reroll on successful saves. Makes the Lt better with the basic grunt too.

Why does it have to be different? Just curious!

Bolters should not be anti-vehicle weapons.
May be extra HIT on each 6's to wound, representing the whole "pierce one guy and explode another behind him" thing.
This way it still has to roll to wound so it does not become twice as good against T8, unlike exra WOUNDS on 6's.

I think giving Bolters some psychological damage could help as well - I know I'd be scared if a bolter was being fired anywhere near me!

Perhaps count models slain by boltguns as double for morale purposes? Or something similar? I know that's quite powerful but I don't know what else to do.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Fair enough. Make Bolters and Bolt Pistols have rending lite instead, making them -1AP on a wound of 6 or 5+?

I know I'm a broken record on this but I want a different mechanic compared to other weapons.

I've been mindlessly promoting that a 6 to wound forces a reroll on successful saves. Makes the Lt better with the basic grunt too.

Why does it have to be different? Just curious!

Because AP modifiers are everywhere on a roll of 6+. Merely wanted a different mechanic for the sake of seeing something else.

 Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Bolters should not be anti-vehicle weapons.

Maybe an extra -1 to AP VS non-vehicle models? Or a +1 to wound VS non-vehicle models.

Adding special rules like that is a bit clunky though. That might also make Heavy Bolters a bit OP, if these rules were to apply to all types of Bolter-type weapons.
Still, it would be kinda fluffy. Bolters are supposed to be something special, not just another type of stub gun.

Panzergraf wrote:

 Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Bolters should not be anti-vehicle weapons.

Maybe an extra -1 to AP VS non-vehicle models? Or a +1 to wound VS non-vehicle models.

Adding special rules like that is a bit clunky though. That might also make Heavy Bolters a bit OP, if these rules were to apply to all types of Bolter-type weapons.
Still, it would be kinda fluffy. Bolters are supposed to be something special, not just another type of stub gun.

To be fair, bolters are Str 4, which is pretty special. As far as stub-guns go, you've got to go up to 12.7 or 14.5mm MGs before you see that sort of strength.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Panzergraf wrote:

 Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Bolters should not be anti-vehicle weapons.

Maybe an extra -1 to AP VS non-vehicle models? Or a +1 to wound VS non-vehicle models.

Adding special rules like that is a bit clunky though. That might also make Heavy Bolters a bit OP, if these rules were to apply to all types of Bolter-type weapons.
Still, it would be kinda fluffy. Bolters are supposed to be something special, not just another type of stub gun.

To be fair, bolters are Str 4, which is pretty special. As far as stub-guns go, you've got to go up to 12.7 or 14.5mm MGs before you see that sort of strength.

It's basically a stubber.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Panzergraf wrote:

 Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Bolters should not be anti-vehicle weapons.

Maybe an extra -1 to AP VS non-vehicle models? Or a +1 to wound VS non-vehicle models.

Adding special rules like that is a bit clunky though. That might also make Heavy Bolters a bit OP, if these rules were to apply to all types of Bolter-type weapons.
Still, it would be kinda fluffy. Bolters are supposed to be something special, not just another type of stub gun.

To be fair, bolters are Str 4, which is pretty special. As far as stub-guns go, you've got to go up to 12.7 or 14.5mm MGs before you see that sort of strength.

It's basically a stubber.

A heavy stubber is a .50 BMG or a 14.5mm HMG so... yes? I don't see the problem with this. Now if there was no difference between an autogun and a bolter, that's a problem, but even the most basic of Astartes hand-held weapons being the equivalent of a crew-served weapon used by lesser soldiers doesn't actually seem that unacceptable.

I don't think the difference is big enough, but I don't think 40K has enough granularity in general. D6 is too small, and the stat range of 3,4,5 is too crowded.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
A heavy stubber is a .50 BMG or a 14.5mm HMG so... yes?

Heavy stubbers are everything from 8mm GPMG's to .50 or 14.5mm vehicle mounted HMG's, used when the rarer Storm Bolters are not available.
I'm not saying a normal bolt gun should be better in all ways than an HMG - a Heavy Stubber will still have an edge in terms of rate of fire (Heavy 3) and Range (36"), but I still think they need something, at least to make them better than the carbines used by lesser Storm Troopers.
If not, why don't the Astartes just use Hellguns instead of Bolters?

I don't think the difference is big enough, but I don't think 40K has enough granularity in general. D6 is too small, and the stat range of 3,4,5 is too crowded.

This is very true though.

Panzergraf wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
A heavy stubber is a .50 BMG or a 14.5mm HMG so... yes?

Heavy stubbers are everything from 8mm GPMG's to .50 or 14.5mm vehicle mounted HMG's, used when the rarer Storm Bolters are not available.
I'm not saying a normal bolt gun should be better in all ways than an HMG - a Heavy Stubber will still have an edge in terms of rate of fire (Heavy 3) and Range (36"), but I still think they need something, at least to make them better than the carbines used by lesser Storm Troopers.
If not, why don't the Astartes just use Hellguns instead of Bolters?

I don't think the difference is big enough, but I don't think 40K has enough granularity in general. D6 is too small, and the stat range of 3,4,5 is too crowded.

This is very true though.

I imagine the Space Marines don't use hellguns because the imperium is full of stupid (otherwise why have Space Marines at all?). They probably don't have the STC or the right factory machines in their Chapter forges or some other weird fluff excuse.

As for why they don't use them in the game, I imagine it's because the Hot-Shot Lasgun/hellgun/whatever is supposed to be the unique shiny that stormtroopers get, and we probably shouldn't be giving things to Space Marines that are the unique trait of every other army.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I imagine the Space Marines don't use hellguns because the imperium is full of stupid (otherwise why have Space Marines at all?). They probably don't have the STC or the right factory machines in their Chapter forges or some other weird fluff excuse.

As for why they don't use them in the game, I imagine it's because the Hot-Shot Lasgun/hellgun/whatever is supposed to be the unique shiny that stormtroopers get, and we probably shouldn't be giving things to Space Marines that are the unique trait of every other army.

The unique shiny Hellgun is still powerful if it has an AP-1, it doesn't need AP-2 to do well considering how well orders mesh with it - the Boltgun/Bolt Pistol/Storm Bolter is still underpowered at AP-...

This is why I think a simple buff to -1 for the Bolter series is the best overall change for the least impact. There are no extra rolls, there is no massive rule that other armies will cry foul over - it is a singular modifier which is applied directly to standard shooting attacks...

Slayer6 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I imagine the Space Marines don't use hellguns because the imperium is full of stupid (otherwise why have Space Marines at all?). They probably don't have the STC or the right factory machines in their Chapter forges or some other weird fluff excuse.

As for why they don't use them in the game, I imagine it's because the Hot-Shot Lasgun/hellgun/whatever is supposed to be the unique shiny that stormtroopers get, and we probably shouldn't be giving things to Space Marines that are the unique trait of every other army.

The unique shiny Hellgun is still powerful if it has an AP-1, it doesn't need AP-2 to do well considering how well orders mesh with it - the Boltgun/Bolt Pistol/Storm Bolter is still underpowered at AP-...

This is why I think a simple buff to -1 for the Bolter series is the best overall change for the least impact. There are no extra rolls, there is no massive rule that other armies will cry foul over - it is a singular modifier which is applied directly to standard shooting attacks...

I'm sure the Hellgun could do with a nerf if it went down in price (or even stayed the same).

The only reason I don't like the idea of bolters being -1 is then you make the necron weapons -2, and heavy bolters -2, and battlecannons -3, and lascannons -4, and meltaguns -5...

Essentially you just nerfed every single heavy infantry in the game, while making hordes even more of an autotake.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

To be fair, bolters are Str 4, which is pretty special. As far as stub-guns go, you've got to go up to 12.7 or 14.5mm MGs before you see that sort of strength.

A bolter is a touch over 19mm, for comparison.

Martel732 wrote:I don't think the difference is big enough, but I don't think 40K has enough granularity in general. D6 is too small, and the stat range of 3,4,5 is too crowded.

The d6 system is, as I've said for ages, the biggest weakness of all GWs games. It's too flat, and doesn't give us much space to make things different (which is important in a game with a lot of models and factions). A d10 system would be the next logical step, but I suspect they'll never actually abandon d6 for some reason or another.

M.

 Infantryman wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

To be fair, bolters are Str 4, which is pretty special. As far as stub-guns go, you've got to go up to 12.7 or 14.5mm MGs before you see that sort of strength.

A bolter is a touch over 19mm, for comparison.

Martel732 wrote:I don't think the difference is big enough, but I don't think 40K has enough granularity in general. D6 is too small, and the stat range of 3,4,5 is too crowded.

The d6 system is, as I've said for ages, the biggest weakness of all GWs games. It's too flat, and doesn't give us much space to make things different (which is important in a game with a lot of models and factions). A d10 system would be the next logical step, but I suspect they'll never actually abandon d6 for some reason or another.

M.

Really? I thought they were fist sized. 19mm is tiny tiny.

Anyways - yes, I agree. Bolters are probably Strength 4.7 and heavy bolters Strength 5.5, while Lasguns are strength 2.9 and autoguns strength 3.1, or something.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I'm sure the Hellgun could do with a nerf if it went down in price (or even stayed the same).

The only reason I don't like the idea of bolters being -1 is then you make the necron weapons -2, and heavy bolters -2, and battlecannons -3, and lascannons -4, and meltaguns -5...

Essentially you just nerfed every single heavy infantry in the game, while making hordes even more of an autotake.

You don't need to buff every other gun when taking into account this change - about the only things needed is maybe a points increase from 0 to 1 or 2.

The Hellgun has a pricetag of 1 for the Stormtroopers - given all the benefits, and the fact it's still better than the standard Lasgun, I think 1 point is justified...

Just so you guys know - a bolter is a 20MM automatic rocket propelled grenade launcher. By todays standards - this would be an artillery piece.

Slayer6 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I'm sure the Hellgun could do with a nerf if it went down in price (or even stayed the same).

The only reason I don't like the idea of bolters being -1 is then you make the necron weapons -2, and heavy bolters -2, and battlecannons -3, and lascannons -4, and meltaguns -5...

Essentially you just nerfed every single heavy infantry in the game, while making hordes even more of an autotake.

You don't need to buff every other gun when taking into account this change - about the only things needed is maybe a points increase from 0 to 1 or 2.

The Hellgun has a pricetag of 1 for the Stormtroopers - given all the benefits, and the fact it's still better than the standard Lasgun, I think 1 point is justified...

You would have to buff every other gun in the game. Because people will wonder why an autocannon or heavy bolter has as much AP as a bolter, and if you buff them, then wonder why a Battlecannon has as much ap as a heavy bolter, and if you buff them, then people will wonder why lascannons have as much AP as only a battlecannon....

Xenomancers wrote:Just so you guys know - a bolter is a 75MM automatic rocket propelled grenade launcher. By todays standards - this would be an artillery piece.

75mm? Surely they're not three inches in diameter? I assumed they'd be like, fist-sized for heavy bolters, at best.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer6 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I'm sure the Hellgun could do with a nerf if it went down in price (or even stayed the same).

The only reason I don't like the idea of bolters being -1 is then you make the necron weapons -2, and heavy bolters -2, and battlecannons -3, and lascannons -4, and meltaguns -5...

Essentially you just nerfed every single heavy infantry in the game, while making hordes even more of an autotake.

You don't need to buff every other gun when taking into account this change - about the only things needed is maybe a points increase from 0 to 1 or 2.

The Hellgun has a pricetag of 1 for the Stormtroopers - given all the benefits, and the fact it's still better than the standard Lasgun, I think 1 point is justified...

You would have to buff every other gun in the game. Because people will wonder why an autocannon or heavy bolter has as much AP as a bolter, and if you buff them, then wonder why a Battlecannon has as much ap as a heavy bolter, and if you buff them, then people will wonder why lascannons have as much AP as only a battlecannon....

Xenomancers wrote:Just so you guys know - a bolter is a 75MM automatic rocket propelled grenade launcher. By todays standards - this would be an artillery piece.

75mm? Surely they're not three inches in diameter? I assumed they'd be like, fist-sized for heavy bolters, at best.

Forgive me. They are 20 MM. .75 cal. My mistake.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer6 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I'm sure the Hellgun could do with a nerf if it went down in price (or even stayed the same).

The only reason I don't like the idea of bolters being -1 is then you make the necron weapons -2, and heavy bolters -2, and battlecannons -3, and lascannons -4, and meltaguns -5...

Essentially you just nerfed every single heavy infantry in the game, while making hordes even more of an autotake.

You don't need to buff every other gun when taking into account this change - about the only things needed is maybe a points increase from 0 to 1 or 2.

The Hellgun has a pricetag of 1 for the Stormtroopers - given all the benefits, and the fact it's still better than the standard Lasgun, I think 1 point is justified...

You would have to buff every other gun in the game. Because people will wonder why an autocannon or heavy bolter has as much AP as a bolter, and if you buff them, then wonder why a Battlecannon has as much ap as a heavy bolter, and if you buff them, then people will wonder why lascannons have as much AP as only a battlecannon....

Xenomancers wrote:Just so you guys know - a bolter is a 75MM automatic rocket propelled grenade launcher. By todays standards - this would be an artillery piece.

75mm? Surely they're not three inches in diameter? I assumed they'd be like, fist-sized for heavy bolters, at best.

Forgive me. They are 20 MM. .75 cal. My mistake.

Yeah, that's much more like what I was expecting!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


You would have to buff every other gun in the game. Because people will wonder why an autocannon or heavy bolter has as much AP as a bolter, and if you buff them, then wonder why a Battlecannon has as much ap as a heavy bolter, and if you buff them, then people will wonder why lascannons have as much AP as only a battlecannon....

Go back to 3rd and check the history I am referring to then. If the Bolter can't be changed, then nerf the Hellgun - it had the exact same AP as the Bolter (5).

I just did 3 test battles with AP- Lasguns on Stormtroopers and found they were not unplayable - just a fair margin weaker. That's a decent enough change, the weapon gets reverted to the standard Lasgun just like 2nd Edition, the Stormtroopers get extra rules, extra stats, and a pretty powerful doctrine to pair with deep striking potential - ie a 9-12" drop with rapid fire range, FRFSRF galore!

9 Regular Guardsman BS4+ with Lasgun firing on Marines with FRFSRF
24" 18 shots - 9 hits, 3 wounds, 1 Marine dead = ~13pts
12" 36 shots - 18 hits, 6 wounds, 2 Marines dead = ~26pts

9 Stormtroopers BS3+ with Lasgun firing on Marines with FRFSRF
24" 18 shots - 12 hits, 4 wounds, 1 1/3 Marines dead = ~17pts
12" 36 shots - 24 hits, 8 wounds, 2 2/3 Marines dead = ~34pts
Doctrine and FRFSRF+Take Aim! So 33 hits, 11 wounds, 3 2/3 Marines dead = ~59pts

So in essence, still a significant overall improvement over regular Guardsmen firing Lasguns by a fair margin.
Whereas before 2 squads of Guardsmen being compared to a single squad of Stormtroopers firing Hellguns; the Stormtroopers managed to still do 33% extra damage (266% vs 1 squad).
Now the Stormtroopers still do a 33% increase over 1 squad, and not a monstrous 266% increase as previously seen.

You may say that they need the Hellguns, but forget that they come with so many upgrades and abilities over regular Guardsmen that the Hellguns are completely unnecessary.

Don't forget that the Stormtroopers are an auxiliary army - not a primary force, so nerfing them shouldn't impact the game as heavily as buffing another of the major armies.

As a sidenote I really should take a photo of my Stormtroopers all lined up - they are all 3rd edition metals:
71 Riflemen
11 Flamers
7 Grenade Launchers
8 Meltaguns
5 Plasmaguns
8 Sword Sergeants
7 Plasma Sergeants

FRFSRF can't be issued at the same time as take aim, IIRC, on the storm troopers.

But yeah, I remember when Hellguns were AP5, and storm troopers were 10 points. They went up to 16 when they became AP3. They were considered ridiculously overcosted, and had myriad deployment options (and not just Deep Strike) to boot.

If they went up 66% with AP3 and were considered ridiculously overcosted at that price, perhaps they could go down by a bit and use normal lasguns, sure.


33% better than a normal Guardsman squad should be 33% more expensive, or about the price of Veterans (who are also considered overcosted this edition, at least relative to IG infantry).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ADDENDUM:

I forgot deep strike, throw on a point for that and 4++, making them 8ppm

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
FRFSRF can't be issued at the same time as take aim, IIRC, on the storm troopers.

But yeah, I remember when Hellguns were AP5, and storm troopers were 10 points. They went up to 16 when they became AP3. They were considered ridiculously overcosted, and had myriad deployment options (and not just Deep Strike) to boot.

If they went up 66% with AP3 and were considered ridiculously overcosted at that price, perhaps they could go down by a bit and use normal lasguns, sure.


33% better than a normal Guardsman squad should be 33% more expensive, or about the price of Veterans (who are also considered overcosted this edition, at least relative to IG infantry).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ADDENDUM:

I forgot deep strike, throw on a point for that and 4++, making them 8ppm

Granted it's only with Laurels of Command, but if you have the WL trait for an extra order, that is the highest potential shot output, short of using 1 CP against Chaos

They could remain on 9pts, possibly down to 8... Remember they have the Carapace Armour, and Krak Grenades too, I suppose the fact they can take so many special weapons in a single squad can justify the price too...
Oh! And the Sergeant (Tempestor) has a WS3+...

Maybe they could get their old Clarion Vox-net rule from 7th for the last 1pt, just changed to provide orders at 9" instead of an 18" leadership instead of getting the Vox Operator...

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just so you guys know - a bolter is a 20MM automatic rocket propelled grenade launcher. By todays standards - this would be an artillery piece.

Un... No? We have 25mm autocanons on pour APC ans man portable automatic 40mm grenade launchers

Edit: one of my army is nothing but stuff from the Scion codex, having them lose their AP would be terrible.