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Back in 3rd Edition, when I started playing, my first units bought were a bunch of Stormtrooper blister packs. They seemed unique, being midrange between Space Marines and standard Imperial Guardsmen in accuracy, stats and weapons...

The original stats of the Boltguns, Lasguns and Hellguns are here:

Boltgun 24" Rapid Fire S4 AP5
Lasgun 24" Rapid Fire S3 AP-
Hellgun 24" Rapid Fire S3 AP5

Here we have something reasonably balanced between the 6pt Guardsman, the 12pt Stormtrooper and the 15pt Space Marine - a weapon to suit their stats...

Now we have:

Boltgun 24" Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP-
Lasgun 24" Rapid Fire 1 S3 AP-
Hellgun 18" Rapid Fire 1 S3 AP2

Sure you lose 6" of range but (as an exclusive Stormtroopers player - I refuse to call them Militarum Tempestus), doesn't the -2AP seem a bit much?

I mean I get how the fluff says they are meant to cut through armor easily, but -2 seems a bit ridiculous, especially on a 10pt model...

Not all the stats were copied over from 7th - the Basilisk's Earthshaker cannon had AP3 last edition (-2 equivalent) to AP-3...

I think the Hellgun could work more fairly as an AP-1 weapon (since I doubt 6" = -2AP, maybe -1AP but definitely not -2AP), or instead add a change to the Boltgun such as a Wound Roll of 6 = -2AP if -1 is insufficient...

I generally run a series of 10 man squads with a Plasma Pistol on the Sergeant for 104pts, now if that squad receives orders from the Leader with Laurels of Command for FRFSRF and Take Aim, and is in Rapid Fire range with a Stormtroopers Doctrine...
Well, that's 36 shots, with 24 hits, 12 missing, 6 will reroll to an additional 4 hits with a proc shot and 2 misses; 7 of the hits (+1 from the reroll) allow another shot, so assume another 2 miss and 1 can reroll from Take Aim.
In effect that's effectively 34 hits at S3 AP-2... And a single Plasma Pistol shot, all for 104pts per squad...

I forfeited the last game in a tournament when I tried the Laurels out on standard 10 man squads for 100pts and completely melted an Assault Marine squad (other squad fell back), only the Assault Marine Sergeant survived...

Most AP3 weapons are AP -2, the Earthshaker used to be -2 in the Index.

Yeah, that does seem a little excessive, especially as the Bolter has none.

M.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Most AP3 weapons are AP -2, the Earthshaker used to be -2 in the Index.

Yes, I was aware of that fact, but as I stated before, I'm finding the fact that the Hellgun/Hot-shot -2 is a bit much especially if you add orders to the mix...

I know several armies have -1 on their standard arms, but they don't have orders, which in itself is a MASSIVE force multiplier...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah, that does seem a little excessive, especially as the Bolter has none.

M.

As an elaboration on the maths:

Two 10 man Guardsman squads can put 18 Lasguns out for S3 AP- at BS4+ for 80pts
A 10 man Stormtrooper squad can put 9 Hellguns out for S3 AP-2 at BS3+ for 100pts
A 10 man Tactical squad can put 9 Boltguns out for S4 AP- at BS3+ for 130pts
Assume extra points for an order from something for FRFSRF

Lasguns at 24" 18x2 = 36 shots, so ~18 hits, 6 wounds, 2 marines dead ~26pts
Hellguns at 24" N/A
Boltguns at 24" 9x1 = 9 shots, so ~6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 stormtroopers dead ~20pts

Lasguns at 18" 18x2 = 36 shots, so ~18 hits, 6 wounds, 2 marines dead ~26pts
Hellguns at 18" 9x2 = 18 shots, so ~12 hits, 4 wounds, 2 2/3 marines dead ~35pts
Boltguns at 18" 9x1 = 9 shots, so ~6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 stormtroopers dead ~20pts

Lasguns at 12" 18x4 = 72 shots, so ~36 hits, 12 wounds, 4 marines dead ~52pts
Hellguns at 12" 9x2 = 18 shots, so ~12 hits, 4 wounds, 2 2/3 marines dead ~35pts
Boltguns at 12" 9x2 = 18 shots, so ~12 hits, 8 wounds, 4 stormtroopers dead ~40pts

Lasguns at 9" 18x4 = 72 shots, so ~36 hits, 12 wounds, 4 marines dead ~52pts
Hellguns at 9" 9x4 = 36 shots, so ~24 hits, 8 wounds, 5 1/3 marines dead ~68pts
Boltguns at 9" 9x2 = 18 shots, so ~12 hits, 8 wounds, 4 stormtroopers dead ~40pts

If the Hellguns at 9" have the Doctrine: Stormtroopers and receive an extra order (Take Aim) from Laurels of Command then the roll appears:

1 - 6 reroll to get +3 miss and +4 hits incl 1x 6
2 - 6 MISS +2 from the 1 rerolls
3 - 6 HIT
4 - 6 HIT
5 - 6 HIT +5 hits from both 1 rerolls
6 - 6 HIT +1 from 1 reroll

So 28 hits nominally, before the 6's roll for an extra 3 misses, incl a 1 which rerolls to a hit, and 4 hits.

Final result is 33 hits at 9" range so ~11 wounds, 7 1/3 marines dead ~95pts

Yes I am completely aware that the chances of this happening are slim to none, but on several occasions in the tournament I was able to do just that by driving 7 full squads right up the middle with Assassins drawing fire in return.

If the Boltguns had AP-1 then the results would be:

24" 9x1 = 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 2/3 stormtroopers dead ~27pts
18" 9x1 = 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 2/3 stormtroopers dead ~27pts
12" 9x2 = 18 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 4 2/3 stormtroopers dead ~46pts

So not excessively overpowered but still a damn sight better...

The alternative is to drop the Hellgun AP to AP-1

18" 9x2 = 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 2 marines dead ~26pts
12" 9x2 = 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 2 marines dead ~26pts
9" 9x4 = 36 shots, 24 hits, 8 wounds, 4 marines dead ~52pts
Doctrine = 34 hits, 11 wounds, 5 1/2 marines dead ~71pts

Lasguns should remain as they are.

Maybe orders should require a Ld check like back in 7th? But only take the highest Ld within the squad, so a Commissar or outsider can't influence it.

The problem is Bolters here. Marine bolters should have a rending rule ala shurikens.

THe problem feels more like special-itis. I've always thought the Stormtrooper should feel like a more "normal" profile, instead of being the the Marine Killers they are.

Besides, if you give the Boltgun rending, are you then going to buff the other troops weapons? If not, why? If so, won't we be right back to where we are now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something like 24" S3 AP-1 was what I was thinking. Probably requiring a point drop, though.

Bharring wrote:
THe problem feels more like special-itis. I've always thought the Stormtrooper should feel like a more "normal" profile, instead of being the the Marine Killers they are.

Besides, if you give the Boltgun rending, are you then going to buff the other troops weapons? If not, why? If so, won't we be right back to where we are now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something like 24" S3 AP-1 was what I was thinking. Probably requiring a point drop, though.

Going back to my original post, I stated how the Stormtroopers had Hellguns that were slightly less powerful than Boltguns.

I believe that the AP-2 is far too much for a 10pt (9+1) model especially one with such significant force multipliers.

-1AP is plenty, especially considering the additions of: +1BS, +1Sv, Krak Grenades, Ability to take Orders, Deep Strike option, and up to FOUR(!) special weapons in a single Troops squad.
This is bearing in mind the differences between these and standard 4pt Imperial Guardsmen. You get all of the above for a mere 5 points, +1 for the ridiculous weapon with the penetration power of a BATTLE CANNON!

Seeing as how the original Hellguns were basically Boltguns with -1S I don't think this is too farfetched...

Slayer6 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
THe problem feels more like special-itis. I've always thought the Stormtrooper should feel like a more "normal" profile, instead of being the the Marine Killers they are.

Besides, if you give the Boltgun rending, are you then going to buff the other troops weapons? If not, why? If so, won't we be right back to where we are now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something like 24" S3 AP-1 was what I was thinking. Probably requiring a point drop, though.

Going back to my original post, I stated how the Stormtroopers had Hellguns that were slightly less powerful than Boltguns.

I believe that the AP-2 is far too much for a 10pt (9+1) model especially one with such significant force multipliers.

-1AP is plenty, especially considering the additions of: +1BS, +1Sv, Krak Grenades, Ability to take Orders, Deep Strike option, and up to FOUR(!) special weapons in a single Troops squad.

Seeing as how the original Hellguns were basically Boltguns with -1S I don't think this is too farfetched...

You can take four Special Weapons in a single Troops choice by purchasing 5 more guys and losing those 4 Hellguns.

Also, you need to be within 18" with a Vox Caster of a Militarum Tempestus Officer or 6" without a Vox-Caster.

The whole reason why Hellguns are more powerful than Boltguns now is because anything that was AP5 or AP6 or AP- got lumped into AP nothing weapons this edition. So Boltguns, Lasguns, etc are all the same.

Hellguns were AP3 before and thus got AP-2. Don't like it? Tough. They're only on Scions anyways.

Seems like a super minor complaint. The issue is how easy Scions cam spam Special Weapons. The Hot Shot Lasgun itself is pretty fair at Rapid Fire 1 now, whereas last edition it needed maybe even Assault 2.

Hellguns became hotshots (or back to being hotshots) and also gained massive armor penetration capacities, its been like that since 5th ed, I don't see why its a problem just now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seems like a super minor complaint. The issue is how easy Scions cam spam Special Weapons. The Hot Shot Lasgun itself is pretty fair at Rapid Fire 1 now, whereas last edition it needed maybe even Assault 2.

Minor? Apart from Command Squads, I don't even use special weapons in my standard Troops squads anymore considering just how brokenly overpowered the Hellgun can be now - it's the armor degradation that makes it overpowered...
A Terminator has a nominal 1/6 chance of being penetrated, now a basic rifle reduces that to a 1/2 AND can double the shots it takes at it with orders to boot!

A basic squad at full capacity costs 100pts - thats 9 hellguns and a pistol. You could sacrifice 4 guns and add 4x 13pt plasmaguns or 4x 12pt meltaguns, but that increases the cost to 148pts and 144pts respectively.
If you have 300pts you can field 2 squads with either 4 plasmaguns each or 4 meltaguns and a plasma pistol each. Alternatively you could field 3 full squads of just hellguns for 300pts and abuse the FRFSRF orders with Take Aim and the Stormtroopers Doctrine.

Slayer6 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seems like a super minor complaint. The issue is how easy Scions cam spam Special Weapons. The Hot Shot Lasgun itself is pretty fair at Rapid Fire 1 now, whereas last edition it needed maybe even Assault 2.

Minor? Apart from Command Squads, I don't even use special weapons in my standard Troops squads anymore considering just how brokenly overpowered the Hellgun can be now - it's the armor degradation that makes it overpowered...
A Terminator has a nominal 1/6 chance of being penetrated, now a basic rifle reduces that to a 1/2 AND can double the shots it takes at it with orders to boot!

A basic squad at full capacity costs 100pts - thats 9 hellguns and a pistol. You could sacrifice 4 guns and add 4x 13pt plasmaguns or 4x 12pt meltaguns, but that increases the cost to 148pts and 144pts respectively.
If you have 300pts you can field 2 squads with either 4 plasmaguns each or 4 meltaguns and a plasma pistol each. Alternatively you could field 3 full squads of just hellguns for 300pts and abuse the FRFSRF orders with Take Aim and the Stormtroopers Doctrine.

Your "abuse" requires a Relic and a Tempestor Prime.

Slayer6 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seems like a super minor complaint. The issue is how easy Scions cam spam Special Weapons. The Hot Shot Lasgun itself is pretty fair at Rapid Fire 1 now, whereas last edition it needed maybe even Assault 2.

Minor? Apart from Command Squads, I don't even use special weapons in my standard Troops squads anymore considering just how brokenly overpowered the Hellgun can be now - it's the armor degradation that makes it overpowered...
A Terminator has a nominal 1/6 chance of being penetrated, now a basic rifle reduces that to a 1/2 AND can double the shots it takes at it with orders to boot!

A basic squad at full capacity costs 100pts - thats 9 hellguns and a pistol. You could sacrifice 4 guns and add 4x 13pt plasmaguns or 4x 12pt meltaguns, but that increases the cost to 148pts and 144pts respectively.
If you have 300pts you can field 2 squads with either 4 plasmaguns each or 4 meltaguns and a plasma pistol each. Alternatively you could field 3 full squads of just hellguns for 300pts and abuse the FRFSRF orders with Take Aim and the Stormtroopers Doctrine.

Yeah and Terminators have 2 Wounds now to compensate for that. All 10 guns on the Deep Strike land a wound on a current Terminator due to how Deep Strike works, whereas last edition you could maybe get 15+ shots in, which kills .6 Terminators. If that adds up over two turns, both editions give you one dead Terminator. The math is even better for the Assault variant if you have Storm Shields rocking.

You gotta realize that Terminators were NEVER durable on the table compared to fluff. While the durability now is more or less the same vs larger weapons, small arms are a MUCH better time and the Tactical variant actually has a mild amount of firepower to compensate.

The difference between AP- and -1 is just too great now, not to mention -2, whereas before it rarely mattered if a weapon was AP-, 6 or 5. Even AP4 was irrelevant in some cases.
I like the new system a lot more, but the main weakness is that the armor saves were more or less kept the same as before.

If for instance Termies had a 1+ save (a roll of 1 always failing), then AP-1 wouldn't really matter to them, as they'd still save on a roll of 2 or more. If other units were also upgraded with a better armor save, then weapons could be given a wider range of AP values.
Boltguns could tear through flak armor, like they're supposed to, without making things like Terminators useless.

Panzergraf wrote:
The difference between AP- and -1 is just too great now, not to mention -2, whereas before it rarely mattered if a weapon was AP-, 6 or 5. Even AP4 was irrelevant in some cases.
I like the new system a lot more, but the main weakness is that the armor saves were more or less kept the same as before.

If for instance Termies had a 1+ save (a roll of 1 always failing), then AP-1 wouldn't really matter to them, as they'd still save on a roll of 2 or more. If other units were also upgraded with a better armor save, then weapons could be given a wider range of AP values.
Boltguns could tear through flak armor, like they're supposed to, without making things like Terminators useless.

That could work!

Boltguns just seem woefully underpowered now compared to a weapon which in its original incarnation was actually a step below them...

Kanluwen, so far you haven't actually provided a counterargument other than nitpicking side comments...

I am arguing that -2 on a basic weapon is too much and should be nerfed, or that the basic weapon of SM, CSM and Sisters could be buffed...

Just give them the same rule rangers have and be done with it. Make it a special rule.

Astartes Built: Bolters and Master Crafted Bolters wielded by ADEPTUS ASTARTES and HERETIC ASTARTES models have the following ability: "Each time you roll a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, it inflicts a mortal wound in addition to any other damage."

Or if you wanna be extra generous to the bolter witches and commissars make it apply to all Bolters and Bolt Pistols.

That would be *absurdly* OP.

It's outright better than weapons that cost a lot more than it.

Think about how much Shurikens suck to get shot with. Now imagine that, instead of giving you a 6+ or 5+ in cover, you get no saves as well. Now, imagine you also need to roll against an additional wound. Now, imagine it can actually shoot (once) beyond 12". Now, imagine it's on a MEQ instead of a GEQ.

All this for only half again the points of a Guardian? Absolutely bonkers.

Bharring wrote:
That would be *absurdly* OP.

It's outright better than weapons that cost a lot more than it.

Think about how much Shurikens suck to get shot with. Now imagine that, instead of giving you a 6+ or 5+ in cover, you get no saves as well. Now, imagine you also need to roll against an additional wound. Now, imagine it can actually shoot (once) beyond 12". Now, imagine it's on a MEQ instead of a GEQ.

All this for only half again the points of a Guardian? Absolutely bonkers.

How OP would it be actually? vs 90% of targets a mortal wound is equivalent to a -4ap wound which is basically what the pseudo rending rule is (it's just -3ap). It would only become very strong vs Mega units like Magnus - which are problematic to begin with. Lets stop for a second and just do the math...youll find It wouldn't be OP at all. It would just make bolters viable weapons...FFS dark eldar mandrakes have this rule and they can deep strike. How OP is that? Oh yeah - it's not OP.

You do the damage of a Boltgun plus 1 wound for every hit. Lets take a look.

Hits that wound Vs Marines:
Boltgun as-is: (1/2)(1/3) = 1 in 6
Boltgun sugg: (1/2)(1/3) + (1/6) = 1 in 3
Splinter: (1/2)(1/3) = 1 in 6
Gauss: (1/2)(1/2) = 1 in 4
Pulse: (2/3)(1/3) = 2 in 9
Shuriken: (1/3)(1/3) + (1/6)(5/6) = 1 in 4
Lasgun: (1/3)(1/3) = 1 in 9

Congrats, they now kill Marines twice as fast as they used to. Twice as fast as Kalabites. Half again as good as Pulse weapons at killing Marines. 33% better than Necrons or Dire Avengers at killing Marines.

And all this comes before the special/combi/heavy. While still being much more durable per point than most of those.

It gets even worse for those other weapons against things like Termies or DKs or Primarchs.

Making it equivelent to AP-4 would make the Bolter strictly better than the Shuriken Catapault, and almost always better than the Gauss Rifle, Splinter Rifle, or Avenger Shuriken Catapault.

Making it do a mortal wound *instead* of wounding would make it stricktly better than all those, and usually better than the Storm Bolter or Pulse Rifle.

Giving it both the Mortal Wound and the regular wound is just insulting.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Just give them the same rule rangers have and be done with it. Make it a special rule.

Astartes Built: Bolters and Master Crafted Bolters wielded by ADEPTUS ASTARTES and HERETIC ASTARTES models have the following ability: "Each time you roll a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, it inflicts a mortal wound in addition to any other damage."

Or if you wanna be extra generous to the bolter witches and commissars make it apply to all Bolters and Bolt Pistols.

That seems a bit over the top don't you think?

Bharring wrote:
You do the damage of a Boltgun plus 1 wound for every hit. Lets take a look.

Hits that wound Vs Marines:
Boltgun as-is: (1/2)(1/3) = 1 in 6
Boltgun sugg: (1/2)(1/3) + (1/6) = 1 in 3
Splinter: (1/2)(1/3) = 1 in 6
Gauss: (1/2)(1/2) = 1 in 4
Pulse: (2/3)(1/3) = 2 in 9
Shuriken: (1/3)(1/3) + (1/6)(5/6) = 1 in 4
Lasgun: (1/3)(1/3) = 1 in 9

Congrats, they now kill Marines twice as fast as they used to. Twice as fast as Kalabites. Half again as good as Pulse weapons at killing Marines. 33% better than Necrons or Dire Avengers at killing Marines.

And all this comes before the special/combi/heavy. While still being much more durable per point than most of those.

It gets even worse for those other weapons against things like Termies or DKs or Primarchs.

Making it equivelent to AP-4 would make the Bolter strictly better than the Shuriken Catapault, and almost always better than the Gauss Rifle, Splinter Rifle, or Avenger Shuriken Catapault.

Making it do a mortal wound *instead* of wounding would make it stricktly better than all those, and usually better than the Storm Bolter or Pulse Rifle.

Giving it both the Mortal Wound and the regular wound is just insulting.

I was thinking just a mortal wound on a 6 - not additional damage. wound on a 6 and its an auto wound.

Still strictly-better than most weapons by a wide margin. How would you balance it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Just give them the same rule rangers have and be done with it. Make it a special rule.

Astartes Built: Bolters and Master Crafted Bolters wielded by ADEPTUS ASTARTES and HERETIC ASTARTES models have the following ability: "Each time you roll a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, it inflicts a mortal wound in addition to any other damage."

Or if you wanna be extra generous to the bolter witches and commissars make it apply to all Bolters and Bolt Pistols.

That seems a bit over the top don't you think?

Why? If Rangers and Scouts can have it on EVERY WEAPON, why is it over the top? It's not like they can snipe characters too.

Maybe change it so those shots are ap -1 instead?

Rangers and Scouts pay points to "upgrade" their weapon to that (directly from Bolters for scouts). And it's Heavy 36 instead of RF:2. And can't take the specials/heavies that Tac Marines can.

At the very least, the danged Bolter should be able to hit harder than a shotgun!

M.

Bharring wrote:
Still strictly-better than most weapons by a wide margin. How would you balance it?

It's strictly better than a shuriken cat.

The changed suggestion becomes 5/18, down from 6/18 against Tac Marines. Almost everything on that list does best compared to the bolter when shooting at Tac Marines. But still loses by a lot.

Against anything with an Invuln, the Boltgun++ then becomes *much* better than anything else on the list.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Just give them the same rule rangers have and be done with it. Make it a special rule.

Astartes Built: Bolters and Master Crafted Bolters wielded by ADEPTUS ASTARTES and HERETIC ASTARTES models have the following ability: "Each time you roll a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, it inflicts a mortal wound in addition to any other damage."

Or if you wanna be extra generous to the bolter witches and commissars make it apply to all Bolters and Bolt Pistols.

That seems a bit over the top don't you think?

Why? If Rangers and Scouts can have it on EVERY WEAPON, why is it over the top? It's not like they can snipe characters too.

Maybe change it so those shots are ap -1 instead?

Those weapons are Heavy 1 and with those weapons, Scouts are 15 and Rangers 13 (I think. I don't know their price point).

Fair enough. Make Bolters and Bolt Pistols have rending lite instead, making them -1AP on a wound of 6 or 5+?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Fair enough. Make Bolters and Bolt Pistols have rending lite instead, making them -1AP on a wound of 6 or 5+?

I know I'm a broken record on this but I want a different mechanic compared to other weapons.

I've been mindlessly promoting that a 6 to wound forces a reroll on successful saves. Makes the Lt better with the basic grunt too.